27 replies to this topic

[Sharg]

Here's my reasoning:

I decided to try Narc for the first time with my Commando, while I was in a group with an Atlas that was sporting 2 LRM20s. I loved sneaking in, firing off a beacon, and pulling back over the hill before being noticed. Then I realized: My beacons were lost after each salvo of missiles hit the target. I had to plant one beacon per salvo. It took me 5-6 Narc beacons to bring down one Stalker. That mechanic really didn't make sense to me.

Being in a Commando, I had limited tonnage to work with. An extra ton of Narc ammo would have made my build slower, less armored, and less effective.

Here are some suggestions:

• Remove the damage mechanic completely
  
• Change the mechanic so that the effect is only removed when that body part is destroyed
  
• Change the mechanic to use a percentage of the 'mechs remaining armor/hit points, rather than a set number for all targets.

Thoughts?

[LordBraxton]

I think they should just make LRM damage count ONLY

that way after a certain number of LRM hits it disappears

but everyone else's direct fire weapons won't dislodge the beacon

Edited by LordBraxton, 03 June 2013 - 08:49 AM.

[stjobe]

Narc needs buffing in some way; it's almost completely useless as implemented.

Your suggestions seem fine to me.

[Mechteric]

I agree, it should only be time based. Since the beaconed mech knows its got a beacon it should know to get some cover quick and keep there until the beacon's time is up.

Another possibility if its needed for balance, is do like MWLL where if your mech is hit by a PPC it will disable the Narc.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 03 June 2013 - 08:54 AM.

[Mad Porthos]

I think that the damage mechanic exists because of a danger of group devastation from LRMs. While you were working in tandem with that LRM atlas and it meant you had to replant every salvo, imagine the danger in an orgainized team with 3 LRM boats. It wouldn't be 40 missiles guided in unerringly to target, it would be 100, 150, even 200. Despite the damage popping the narc off, a coordinated group launching thier missiles together could truly be devastating if the narc had NO damage limiter/drop off feature. No matter how much that targeted mech got under cover, ran and swerved, it would be as though it was being painted with a big bullseye for EVERY missile mech... for volley after volley.

I think you may see something valid though, the mechanic is triggered at too low a point. A single mech who personally carries NARC and missles, or a team where one is dedicated to NARCing/tagging, the other firing... keeps exposing that tagger spotter again and again for just the pay off of a single salvo.

Perhaps if one could set it up so that only damage from missiles is counted in knocking off a Narc Beacon, because it's "EXPLOSIVE" rather than pin point? Otherwise if you NARC a target in the CT, but 40 points of damage is done to the left leg of that mech.... does it make sense that NARC falls off?

It seems to me, opinion only, that the damage limiter/drop off mechanic should really be a deterrent to the mass team exploitation of a single NARC lock by many LRM boats on that target. If they are not coordinated to a T, the NARC beacon signal will be lost while some missiles from a team of LRM boaters are still enroute to the target... whereas if a single spotter/LRM team are working together, perhaps more like two salvos should be managed off an NARC lock, from the LRM member of the pair.

I think this would be a way to address it, up the damage limit to something like 60 and see if you can make it apply primarily to missiles damage and perhaps ballistic... or require all the damage to actually be on the location the NARC actually STUCK to... so that shooting the right foot of the Narced mech, or thier shield arm, won't detach it easily.

Edit: Posted this as others were replying, I see some similar themes there, LRM damage only counting... or perhaps missile damage only counting, since SRMS are supposed to be effected too. Also the bit about pin point weapons not counting vs the drop off threshold. Perhaps splash damage was meant to be a way to differentiate missiles from other damages, that could have applied against the Narcs... not that it matter now though. (Read Sarna again before quoting the whole SRMS are only dumbfire rockets thing again - if that's your reaction to this mention to SRMs and NARC.)

Edited by Mad Porthos, 03 June 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[Monky]

I've suggested this before; either 30 second duration or 80 damage from missile weapons only before it is destroyed - WHICHEVER IS GREATER. If it takes 80 damage off the bat, you've still got until 30 second mark to use that beacon. If it doesn't get hit for 5 mins, it can take up to 80 missile damage before fading off. maybe add in a mechanic where 50% damage registers against the beacon from other weapons past the 30 second mark to prevent entire enemy teams being lit up by 8 mans exploiting this feature by not using missile weapons.

Edited by Monky, 03 June 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[Bilbo]

The only problem I see with the suggestion is, if you narc a leg on a heavy or assault, the narc will never be removed.

Edited by Bilbo, 03 June 2013 - 09:00 AM.

[General Taskeen]

MW:LL just uses a 30 second timer, and that's it! Perfectly fine and balanced, and features auto-seek of missiles like its supposed to.

[Sharg]

Bilbo, on 03 June 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

The only problem I see with the suggestion is, if you narc a leg on a heavy or assault, the narc will never be removed.

True, but I only suggested removing the damage mechanic. The timer would still remain at 30 seconds. And, as CapperDeluxe mentioned:

CapperDeluxe, on 03 June 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

I agree, it should only be time based. Since the beaconed mech knows its got a beacon it should know to get some cover quick and keep there until the beacon's time is up.

The beaconed 'mech can get to cover or get behind a hill to avoid damage.

[Sybreed]

I asked about the damage counter on the latest ATD, Bryan ignored the question.

There's no reason to have a damage counter on NARC, it's bad enough as it is and it's the main reason why I don't even want to use it.

[MustrumRidcully]

It has seen a lot of good buffs, and I tend to believe the only thing holding it back right now is the loss-on-enough-damage mechanic. The damage value either needs to go entirely, or be upped considerably (80 the least, but probably even that is too low - LRMs have the potential to deal a lot of damage, but spread it around to be not useful... ).

[Sybreed]

MustrumRidcully, on 03 June 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

It has seen a lot of good buffs, and I tend to believe the only thing holding it back right now is the loss-on-enough-damage mechanic. The damage value either needs to go entirely, or be upped considerably (80 the least, but probably even that is too low - LRMs have the potential to deal a lot of damage, but spread it around to be not useful... ).

yeah, current values mean that 1 salvo of 2xlrm 15 will dislodge the narc, which means the scout has to stay close to the target and keep on narcing.. might as well just target and provide target info to the LRM mech.

[verybad]

Give Narced mechs the LRM "super arc" That makes NARCs useful and being narced something feared. As is they're gonna be unused, too much tonnage and space for something teammates won't take advantage of. With a time limit, they aren't a death sentence, but they do make the mech likely to take cover for that limit, fulfilling a secondary use.

Edited by verybad, 03 June 2013 - 10:06 AM.

[Deathlike]

Bilbo, on 03 June 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

The only problem I see with the suggestion is, if you narc a leg on a heavy or assault, the narc will never be removed.

This is a bad thing?

Right now, NARC suffers from either time (20 seconds) or damage (40 damage max). You figure out which needs to be fixed first before changing its behavior.

I saw NARC in use during LRMageddon briefly, so clearly it was useful enough. The problem is that not enough people are using it, so it's a meh proposition currently.

[Sybreed]

my question in ATD that got ignored:

Bryan: Given LRMs' current flightpaths and their perceived OPness and NARC's perceived almost-uselessness, would you consider giving the current flightpath to missiles going to a NARCed target?

Also about NARC: Is the DMG cap per beacon really needed? If so, why? Are the devs that afraid NARC becomes too strong for a 4-tons minimum piece of equipment?

Thank you for the answers!

Basically what you guys are asking

edit: I asked this prior to the LRM hotfix.

Edited by Sybreed, 03 June 2013 - 10:18 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

verybad, on 03 June 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

Give Narced mechs the LRM "super arc" That makes NARCs useful and being narced something feared. As is they're gonna be unused, too much tonnage and space for something teammates won't take advantage of. With a time limit, they aren't a death sentence, but they do make the mech likely to take cover for that limit, fulfilling a secondary use.

That would just create the abuse of the NARC by coordinated LRM attacks, with no hope for the NARC'd to avoid.

The Forum "whining" would be immediate and deafening. Although the "tears" would be sweet.

[Roland]

I agree.

I think that perhaps the problem is that they aren't tracking what component the narc hit.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I'd agree with the "30 seconds or until hit location is destroyed" option.

[Roland]

I think it should just be until the armor section is gone... If you blow off the armor on that section, then the narc's gone. Seems like a totally fair mechanism, and one which would make the narc very useful (especially if you landed in on a key panel, like the CT).

[LordBraxton]

Roland, on 03 June 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

I think it should just be until the armor section is gone... If you blow off the armor on that section, then the narc's gone. Seems like a totally fair mechanism, and one which would make the narc very useful (especially if you landed in on a key panel, like the CT).

dis makes sense