1217 replies to this topic

[Nebelfeuer]

the above is a littlecomplicated but is would solve the JJ matter for most poeple i think.

the above is a littlecomplicated but is would solve the JJ matter for most people i think.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Lindonius, on 05 June 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

I'm sorry I'm not buying this motion sickness cobblers. Yesterday while at work I read countless threads complaining about the shake being so bad they felt sick. I got home, fired up the Jenner and jumped into the testing grounds expecting to experience something akin to when I was in that earthquake 2 years ago.

What did I experience? A little bit of shaking and a jumpy reticule that only moves while you are not firing. Really? That little shake is causing you to feel ill? I call bull. It reeks of QQing poptarters clutching at straws trying to find any excuse to get their meta back.

I would also like to point out that this is a mech SIMULATOR, and as such you should EXPECT to experience motion sickness if you are flying through the air in a giant 90 ton battlemech with rockets strapped to its back. The fact that PGI has achieved this is something to be applauded. It really adds to the immersion and if this really makes you ill, then I'm sorry but jump jetting isn't for you. You do realise that there are a myriad of other mechs and loadouts that you can enjoy without jump jets, don't you?

Back when I was 17 I was told by the RAF that I couldn't be a jet pilot because I had a lazy right eye. Hey guess what? I chose not to become a fighter pilot.

The shake is fine as it is and it really adds to the immersion.

Well done PGI. You nailed it spot on, first time.

Once the adjustments for weight are in in the next patch just leave it. As is, working as intended. Then focus your attention on the other more important stuff (*cough* community warfare *cough*).

please tell me you're playing in windowed mode in a tiny little resolution. Because the reticle on my screen is huge, and it's angry, and it's mindbending and headache causing. Especially in zoom mode. If I look at it, which, is hard not to do in 1900x1200 on a 27in screen. Anyway, surely you're not concluding that since you're not experiencing something, that hundred or so other people are lying.

And your solution is...play a mech without jumpjets? I'm amazed

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

And holy cow this is like the Jump Jet nerf all over again. I'd compare it to a Raven3L nerf but that never happened. So I'll just say it's like Raven3L hate mixed with the schadenfreude that people had when PGI kicked in a jumpjet number requirement and also revamped how JJs worked. You had lines and lines of threads of people talking about how PGI finally fixed the JJs and nerfed the abusers, and anyone who disagreed was obviously a "one jumpjet cheater". Then PGI came out and admitted that they broke the JJs in order to tweak them, and then "some" people got quiet. You still had one or two that "swore" that jumpjets where still great, even though they had to jump from the tops of buildings and hills to get over terrain, and literally could not get any altitude. You still had people saying everything was ok, when it clearly wasn't.

This JJ shake solution is problematic. It isn't some poptarter conspiracy to turn things back. It's beta-testers highlighting a serious freakin problem with the interface. If you enjoy the game so much, you'd probably prefer a workable solution, over people no longer enjoying flying their mechs around and shooting at things.

[Spyder228]

I don't own any poptarts. My JJ capable mechs are lights which I feel suffer greatly from this change. I never use JJ in a fight anymore unless I throw myself off a cliff to get away from someone.

On the motion sickness front - I am prone to motion sickness (not ever in a game though) and the feeling I get during a prolonged JJ flight is not the same, at least for me. It's more of a lasting disorientation in the eyes, sort of like dizzyness but only in the eyes. I had to stop and close my eyes yesterday till the feeling passed after a long JJ flight. That said, it doesn't bother me too much during very short flights.

Saying that I should take drugs to avert this feeling is stupid. A game shouldn't make you feel sick.

I fully agree with doing something to counteract poptarting, but the crosshair shake is far too violent. Why not have crosshair remain where it's at just have your weapons have much reduced convergence?

Edited by Spyder228, 06 June 2013 - 05:29 AM.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Mellifluer, on 05 June 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

well what can i say. I have always believed that every each build is valid in some way in the right team with the right balance. I do not agree with unbalanced/loaded or abusive teams, there is no reason that half the enemy team should be comprised solely of highlander poptarts, srm splatta cats ecm 3L,s and so on and so fourth, balance of their team relative to my team as a whole is what makes the battle fun and interesting. failing the matchmaker simply dealing your team the bad hand, tactics win the day i have seen it countless times. no one mech or one team loadout is best, even if it is "trick of the month", balance and tactics will always win the battle.

It is this balance of the teams is what makes games always seem one sided and polar, stock trials fighting tricked out c-bill wonder weapons. as many have pointed out before and i agree, trial mechs under normal circumstances should be pitted only against other trial mechs, at least for newcomers.

and i think that is what people are getting angry with. I agree completely that its unrealistic to fight back against a stacked team even if your team not too shabby yourselves, the polar nature of mech battle is why battles always seem so one sided. however the poptart or jumpbrawling/sniping champion, like any mech build should not be being targeted specificely if i may quote a previous post

"Glad jumpsniping is dead. not glad that lights got the shaft" Colonel Pada Vinson

this exemplifies exactly what i am talking about. It already seems preagreed upon that poptarting for anything but a light is bad and that no banhammer is big enough to fix the problem. while everyone also agrees that most JJ lights will not really be "helped" from the "evils" of poptart snipers with this "adjustment"/nerf as they already are just grinding meat for all the ecm variants....... maybe you should look at that PGI, the relative uselessness of so many mech variants. before you go nerfing half of your lineup.....

we admit that lights need to be able to jump brawl and jump snipe, but on the same hand its horrible for a mech that is simply heavier to try that build.

knock it off please. that is a childish argument and circular at that. really how is one supposed to intelligently address this argument. heres one for you

if you find that you think that poptarts, splatta cats, ecm warrior, or any other build that is abused, are somehow "unfair" "evil" or "unfit" then you are playing the wrong game. plain and simple

mechwarrior is all about customization and experimentation. just because you fail to realize with every strength comes weakness, and further so, the greater your strengths also similarly the greater your weakness. If you find yourself outgunned and pinned down, its not the enemies pilots fault, they are trying to win the war they are doing their job pinning your team down and using tactics to win.

the matchmaker needs fixing, not JJ or any weapons.

because it strikes me as odd that ALL mechs with JJ got this "feature", physics would dictate larger mechs the more stable platform, because they have more mass, IE they do not have the thrust to weight ratio that a small mech has, small mechs have a fairly high thrust to weight ratio, large mechs typically have a much a smaller ratio.

smaller mechs would rocket around the map like a butterfly with a scramjet strapped to its back side. large heavy mechs would slowly, but gracefully jump then fall hard. which is another thing, light mechs should survive higher falls with almost no damage, because they are light and spry, heavy mechs should have their knees broken and fall on their face causing massive damage because they are so heavy they cannot catch their weight in a fall and crush themselves.

Im just saying don't go and say this is some "realism" or "fix" for poptarts. because as many have pointed out before, mechwarrior is advanced technology, yet in game they apparently regressed from even our time in such things as radar technology and thermal/infrared, missile guide, and so forth. but hey there were many dark ages in battle tech, so i guess we are in the dark ages of gyroscopes again too now?

maybe instead you could have simply give all variants ecm and JJ in fact that would be amazing, i could breath life into so many of my mediums . poptarts wouldn't be of much use against a whole lance of JJ ecm mechs now would they ? i mean why keep nerfing builds, why don't you mech all the other mechs viable by giving them more advantages so people might want to use them in competitive play? otherwise we are regressing to back before beta when ecm was god and there was no counter past ecm stacking your team. again a matchmaker problem.

as for.. all those lights jump jetters i love to play can no longer brawl, snipe or make a meaningful contribution to my team in terms of damage. i can be a distraction but now as a light my ability to actually scout and engage the enemy is seriously nerfed, i cant just peek over a hill i have to peak in the air, and of course we all know what happens to a light that cant shoot back.....

no i dont own just one poptart i have 3 out of 34 mechs. but about half of all my mechs have JJ yet only 3 are jump snipers, they are the heavy metal, spider 5D and my Cat-C1 that one that i dreamed up as a kinda "experiment" i haven't really seen anyone rocking but me and i kinda liked that one, specifically because it was unique and i had to play allot of games to really work out its balance out. btw it only has 2 errppc they are both in the torso and yes you have to be able to aim/lead and know where and how to move to be able to use it. it was and is a beautiful machine of balance, it is fast, agile, powerful, and it doesn't overheat easy, it didn't need anything cheesy like "cool shot" or "seismic sensor". it was just a beast of raw balance and piloting skill.

stop getting angry at and nerfing everything, do start making the matchmaker force balance teams so that people stop getting cheesed by 4 mechs of the same build on a team, rather than blaming the latest trick of the month. how are we going to make progress when people cry foul over every new tactic? as others have said, adapt your tactics, change to the situation as it demands only then you will find victory. learn to read the battlefield and become a competent commander. this is mechwarrior, strategy and battlefield advantage are king, start thinking strategically and maybe you wont find yourself cornered and alone and outgunned.

and yes the learning curve on this game is still ridiculous, even more reason that newcomers should have a nice genile newcomer arena where they can fight other newcomers/trial mechs and learn the game at their own pace and stop getting blasted to bits by all the pros in tricked out wonder mechs. that is the real problem and it continues to be so.

I don't just like this post, I love this post.

[DeaconW]

Avi8tor, on 05 June 2013 - 10:58 PM, said:

COMPLETE CRAP

What I wanna know is why does the screen not shake now for people who are walking and shooting???????????? All you have done is shifted it to something else...now the 4 5 and 6 ppc stalkers/atlas's and such are doing the same thing....

What bothers me most is, you build a game, people get good at something and you nerf it because of all the cry babies...yes CRY BABIES....if you dn't like the poptarters, there are tactics to defeat them....you can also learn to do it yourself and beat them at their own game.... Seems like this team goes all out to protect the noobs but craps all over the loyal base that has been around long enough to get good at something....It disgusts me....and oh btw, it takes a bit of skill to poptart to start with so don't let the babies fool you and cry about it because they have no skill....Yes, it takes a bit more skill now with the shake, but honestly, I can still shoot 600-900 damage games with the shake....its the thoughtless crap of feeling screwed because I took the time to get good at something that burns me, not the actuall shaking...

On that note.....IF I stay playing this game...I will # 1 spend no further money on it and #2, I will poptart more and work harder at getting better at it so I can make the cry even louder...BABIES.....

Most likely tho...I will prolly just not play anymore.....screwed over one to many times....

^^poptart cries a river while calling others "Crybabies". Priceless.

I am sure this will come as a total shock to you but...you got "good" at something that was a broken game mechanic that never should have been in the game and has now been appropriately removed. Now bring your "skill"...

Mantle, on 05 June 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

This was not a deal before they made assaults with jj's. Pop sniping is a valid tactic as long as there are jj's. The screen shake has completely removed the tactic from the game.

I still see a good number of mechs jumpjetting and shooting in game. Your argument is invalid.

[DeaconW]

DemonicD3, on 06 June 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:

Why don't we just remove snipers all together for you then?

Straw man...no one is advocating that sniping be removed from the game. And it is still going on.

Quote

Games had variaty,..

I'm sorry..laughing too much...must....catch...my...breath...

z3a1ot, on 06 June 2013 - 02:47 AM, said:

All i can say is thank god those days are gone when 3-4 highlanders and 1 or 2 cataprachts would park behind the boat in lake on Forest Colony and hop their brains out all match dealing 35-45 pinpoint damage every time they hit. Often they would not even move from there the entire match. Same thing on Frozen Colony on the ridge.

Couldn't agree more...but according to some posting on this thread, that is "tactics" and "skill"...<eyeroll>

[Hellboy561]

Everyone needs to stop complaining and deal with it! I personally think its brilliant! I have seen far fewer pop-tarts in my games, those i have seen haven't been hitting with every single shot but still manage to score well. Pop-tarting has its moments in game, when your flanking have a jump up and take a shot, but your not supposed to be up and down more times a day than a whores drawers, if you do that of course your gonna get motion sickness (probably catch something worse if your not careful!) Also if your 30 ton mech is shaking around alot maybe consider that you are flying 30 tonnes of metal through the air without any real consderation to aerodynamics.

But to summarise, keep it as it is. Maybe tone down the shake a little bit to stop the whiners.. But overall good job!

[VagGR]

i keep seeing people saying that JJ were fine and its all about skill and tactics...

the problem here is a combination of poptarting+high alpha builds+ poor game modes to a certain degree (kill eachother and thats it)...the reason JJ had to be tweaked and toned down is NOT that poptarting was op..the problem here is that it was so easy to do that everybody was doing it. everybody...as a result the current state of the game was extremely one sided and extremely BORING..

you drop into a match and your team is 3 highlanders, 2 cataphracts 3d, a pppc stalker, a jenner and you in your centurion..the enemy team about the same, one less highlander maybe and in its place a 3ppc/gauus atlas or maybe instead of a centurion a blackjack with 2 ppc...you drop at tourmaline, you start walking both teams reach the usual place at the center and the poptarting/sniping starts...and there you are in your centurion...waiting...what tactics and what skill do tou think you can apply here? go around and cap the base? is this what mechwarrior is about?! see the real problem here?

same goes for high alpha builds...and the solution is NOT removing poptarting or high alpha sniping complete from the game. no of course not..but it had to be tweaked so not everyone can do it so easily...in the current JJ state you can still poptart either go as usual and hope for a good shot with the reduced accuracy or wait to take the shot when you disengage your JJ and your crosshairs are steady...there are people doing it already, but the rest that were just poptarting because it was easy to do and everybody else was doing it will have to adapt...

same goes for alpha builds and i beleive a "fix" is on the way for them too...how hard is it to go buy a stalker and put 6 ppc on it(or an atlas with 3ppc+1gauss) no matter what kind player you are you shoot once 60pt of dmg right there...even if you are the worst aim chances are you will hit something... everyone is doing already no matter if the poptart or they stay on the ground..its turning into an arms race..why go for anything else than that stalker/atlas if every one else is doing and its not that hard to do it yourself... see the problem here again?

high alpha builds pros: long range high pinpoint dmg. cons: low fire rate high heat. this is what PGI needs to focus on with regards of balancing alphas.

you cant forbid players to poptart or using high alphas but you can make it so its not easy and for everyone to do...the JJ nerf was a step in the right direction

Edited by VagGR, 06 June 2013 - 05:54 AM.

[Milt]

Let's see name calling check, whining check, pgi employees insulting customers check, gloating check. Yep this "fix" has it all. oh wait honest discourse missing, a good solution to "pop-tarting" missing. damn almost had it all

[DarklightCA]

DeaconW, on 06 June 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

Straw man...no one is advocating that sniping be removed from the game. And it is still going on.

I'm sorry..laughing too much...must....catch...my...breath...

Actually many people basicly are, you should maybe try reading some posts of your fellow poptart hating brethren. That would give you something to really laugh about.

[Milt]

Which is the bigger issue poptarting or high alpha/ high heat builds? imo its the high alpha builds, without them, poptarting wouldnt be an issue, it would be a tactic. adding in real penalties for poor heat management would have been a better solution. as an added bonus it would have brought controling water into the game like it is in TT. In lore and in gameplay most battles were fought around water. the mechs that controlled the water had a hell of an advantage over their enemies. hell just increasing the time spent asleep after overheating would have gone further in solving this than this horrible implementation of screenshake

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

so it all comes down to meta game deficiencies, pugs not playing in ways that compliment the team, but instead going with an "annoying to some" Flavor Build, with high alphas because they didn't know any better? Poptarts themselves weren't the problem, just the number of poptarters?

They're just playing the game and trying to get kills. Which...they think...or someone told them, was the point.

Then consider the angry bad blood against poptarting from the previous MW:Living Legends game, where poptarting apparently ruined the game. Here we have an opportunity to either verify that poptarting is a logical and practical addition to the game, or we can keep making up a premise to have or not have something just because for some reason it's causing an unconfortable gaming dynamic.

If all your newbs are of free will building poptarts, you don't suddenly make poptarting artificially hard with artifice. Yes the reticle bounce is a nice concept, but the premise of what makes poptarting hard *now* wouldn't fit with Battletech. You jump and suddenly your crosshairs make your eyes bug out of your head. That invents a reason to create a quick fix for a deficiency, instead of addressing the deficiency. The meta game it still unbalanced with crazy builds and pros against horrible builds and pugs, who all stick to the same small set of tactics and focus on completing the team deathmatch dynamic as quickly as possible. The only reason you'd pick an actual role versus a high damage berserker mech is if you're role playing. There's still no game play direction, and few game play options versus kill the red arrow guys and capture territories. That bat-faced boy still limps around, now just with fewer poptarts.

Edited by ArchMage Sparrowhawk, 06 June 2013 - 06:36 AM.

[DeaconW]

DemonicD3, on 06 June 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

Actually many people basicly are, you should maybe try reading some posts of your fellow poptart hating brethren. That would give you something to really laugh about.

Please, point to one post that says, "I want sniping removed from the game". I still drive sniper builds (among others) so I know it is not true for me.

[Milt]

modern tank warfare in defense. start in hull down position, spot enemy, roll forward target and fire, return to hull down position and reload, rinse repeat. how is this different than pop-tarting?

[DeaconW]

ArchMage Sparrowhawk, on 06 June 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Yes the reticle bounce is a nice concept, but the premise of what makes poptarting hard *now* wouldn't fit with Battletech.

BT rules have an accuracy penalty for firing while jumpjetting. Your argument is invalid.

Milt, on 06 June 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

modern tank warfare in defense. start in hull down position, spot enemy, roll forward target and fire, return to hull down position and reload, rinse repeat. how is this different than pop-tarting?

Um, is this a trick question because the answer is "It's not jumping hundreds of feet in the air."?

[Milt]

your definiton of pop tarting and mine must be different. im up, i fire, im down. regardless of whether im using jj or not. its still the same effect. you are exposed for very little time to fire off a high alpha attack then back behind cover to cool off.

[DeaconW]

Milt, on 06 June 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

your definiton of pop tarting and mine must be different. im up, i fire, im down. regardless of whether im using jj or not. its still the same effect. you are exposed for very little time to fire off a high alpha attack then back behind cover to cool off.

Are you being purposely obtuse? it's like saying "Both my Commando and my Altas have lasers so they are the same". There is a significant difference between hill-humping and poptarting(using JJ). One requires more skill to do properly, exposes you to counterfire longer, and allows more accurate counterfire when it is given. The other gives you much more SA of the battlefield, exposes more of the enemy to fire, makes you harder to hit, and takes little skill to do.

Edited by DeaconW, 06 June 2013 - 07:09 AM.

[Milt]

are you serious? skill to walk up a hill, hit a button to reverse throttle, fire and return down the hill? isnt that the same as fire jj to crest a hill, fire and refire jj to not take damage? sounds quite similar to me. same number of keypresses.

Edited by Milt, 06 June 2013 - 07:12 AM.

[DeaconW]

Milt, on 06 June 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

are you serious? skill to walk up a hill, hit a button to reverse throttle, fire and return down the hill? isnt that the same as fire jj to crest a hill, fire and refire jj to not take damage? sounds quite similar to me. same number of keypresses.

Willfully obtuse it is. Got it. Tell you what, go experiment with hill-humping for 100 matches (cause it is apparent you have experience with poptarting) and come back and report your results as to whether they are "the same". We'll be waiting here with baited breath. I promise.

BTW, "mwomercs" and "format c" have the same number of keypresses so they must have the same effect, right?

Protip: The way you described is a sub-optimal way to hill-hump...but keep doing it that way if you desire.