80 replies to this topic

[Cache]

DocBach, on 06 June 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

they should like, just change the effects of ECM so it like, didnt need 50 counters and dedicated HP because down the line a lot of stock ECM mechs don't have it in the LT.....

What? Makes too much sense. Then you couldn't have an arms race like they have now. ECM was turned from a counter of advanced electronics into Godzilla. Then they had to create Mothra and MechaGodzilla to fight it. There's no going back now that the genie is out of the bottle.

Sarcasm aside, I agree. If ECM was a counter to advanced electronics only as it is in TT, we all wouldn't be having this discussion (or many others before and after). They could've saved the fancy stuff (sensor ghosts, etc.) for modules. The balance already attained in TT would've been much more balanced in MWO than what we have now--where ECM functions as super stealth armor without the heat and crit space penalty and BAP is actually BAP+ECCM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Taemien, on 06 June 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

Don't even bother reasoning with them. They are just crying because their ECM is getting neutralized and then the little mechs leave them there to be destroyed last while they're lumbering along useless. Its not like they can hit anything with their weapons.

Besides we don't need to argue for the placement of the ECM. There's no way PGI is going to listen to this. Its going to stay where it is.

Are you honestly that dense, or just putting on a show so you can look like a big man on teh interwebz? Who the hell even shoots at the LT of an Atlas these days?

[Rhent]

Caviel, on 06 June 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

I just want to point out that if you take a D-DC down to a stripper pole status (CT, head, and legs), you've removed any combat capability from the mech as it doesn't have any CT hardpoints. Might as well be dead for the minimal use it is at that point. You'd be a slow walking ECM stick.

I'd like it moved to the CT just because it interferes with ammo I store in the LT, although it is easy enough to work around it's not that big of a deal.

You have 5 slots to store ammo where you can't store weapons OR DHS, outside of the torsos.
-Head
-LL
-RL

I'm pretty sure you can live with the change to your slots. If you are running a LRM mech then you need to have BAP equipped to lock on AND reaqcquire your targets quicker, therefore that goes in your CT.

The more I read these arguments about ECM being in the LT the more I shake my head.

[Fate 6]

Jake Hendricks, on 06 June 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

I've mixed feelings as I appreciate the ECM when it was CT but agree it is more of a bonus to the mech having it there. I do think the LT is a bad location on the atlas simply as it's where it has the most hardpoints, I feel as though RT would be a better choice meaning you choose it or your AC20 for example.

You could fit an AC20 and ECM exactly in the right torso, unless I miscounted something. At this point I'm done arguing about ECM though, because PGI is fixed on keeping it brokenly strong and just having 1000000 counters to it.

[Lyoto Machida]

OneEyed Jack, on 06 June 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

I agree with CT, but for different reasons. When I see an LRM DDC, I want to kill them. Even more when they're on my team then the enemy.

I just think it should be CT so it's not penalizing the mech on crit slots. Numerous things can be fit int he side torso, but nothing else the mech can carry* besides ammo (assuming the player isn't an ***** with SHS) can even fit in the CT. Nothing. So they're taking the mech with the tightest crit space requirements in the game, and the lowest likelihood of Endo/FF to make use of random crit space, and effectively removing 2 crit slots.

That's harsh, and there's no way it can be supported from a purely objective viewpoint.

[Edit]
(*ignoring BAP, since it's largely wasted tonnage/crits when combined with ECM)

Not true...I still carry ECM when I take BAP. I don't have to sacrifice my team's ECM coverage by switching ECM modes solely because some 3L is running around me.

[El Bandito]

HammerMaster, on 06 June 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Yes possibly the other torso, but come on. NOTHING else mounts CT. There is No CT hardpoint. Empty space.

There is...BAP?

[JSparrowist]

ECM is placed where it is to make you make a decision...what armaments will you sacrifice for your beloved ECM? It's not supposed to be tucked away with the engine in CT. It needs some down sides and you're asking to remove what little down side it has now.

NO NO NO NO NO!

[MustrumRidcully]

Why do you think they even came up with the idea of an ECM hard point?

Exactly, to force you to occupy space that you might rather use for something else.

I am questionable that this was ever a meaningful nerf to the ECM. It pretty much only affects mechs in the heavy or assault class.

El Bandito, on 06 June 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

There is...BAP?

And Standard Heat Sinks.
And the Command Console!
And ammo!

I'd pick either BAP (but I believe that doesn'T play with ECM) or the ammo. Seriously, ammo has only a 10 % explosion chance. That's laughable. And the few times you actually explode from it, you and your attacker will have a funny story to retell.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Absolutely not. ECM needs to be a choice, not a foregone conclusion. 1.5 tons and 2 slots is a pittance for what ECM capable of, especially in a 100 ton mech. There needs to be sacrifices. Light mechs are giving up 1.5 tons, which is a lot when you're tonnage-limited. Specifying locations can only really affect the Commando and Spider, which do not need to be nerfed at all.

[David Sumner]

The truth of the matter is that no designer in their right mind would have deliberately cripple the major combat capability of a command 'mech by placing the ECM where it is now. And ECM is TOO powerful, that's what I want balance graphs for. To demonstrate where balance is failing. ECM should be completely countered by TAG, no matter how many cover you. TAG should only designate a target, not provide armor/weapon information. ECM should also light up a huge portion of the map as static, not silently cloak you.

[DocBach]

David Sumner, on 06 June 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

TAG should only designate a target, not provide armor/weapon information.

yeah, its sort of silly how in PGI's vision of ECM a laser aiming light made to guide artillery now probes the enemy for information, and the information gathering beagle active probe now defeats the electronic countermeasures fielded to counter it.

[Taemien]

OneEyed Jack, on 06 June 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Are you honestly that dense, or just putting on a show so you can look like a big man on teh interwebz? Who the hell even shoots at the LT of an Atlas these days?

Same people who shoot at the left torso of a raven.

I've already shot down the idea that the ECM is taking up any slots that would be used for weapons (oh noes the highest amount of LRMs it can mount with ECM is 45 vs 50 without!). So why bother spending bandwidth or code time moving it to the CT? Lets hear your reason if you dare.

[Kitane]

Anything that reduces number of LRM assault boats in the game is a very good thing - they are the worst part of the weapon balance.

+ Atlas isn't designed to be a LRM boat, use a fire support mech like Awesome or a Stalker if you want to stay behind in second line.

[HammerMaster]

I am seeing mixed feelings on this.Some with too much foul mouthedness. My point remains the same. You can boat better on other mechs. Why penalize this chassis?

[MustrumRidcully]

HammerMaster, on 07 June 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

I am seeing mixed feelings on this.Some with too much foul mouthedness. My point remains the same. You can boat better on other mechs. Why penalize this chassis?

Just don't equip an ECM, like every other Atlas does, too.

You could also ask "why are the 2 ballistic slots in one torso, why not one in each torso"?

[StalaggtIKE]

The following is why I don't support the recent hardpoint change:

Rhent, on 06 June 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

You aren't thinking it through.
-1st) no downside to using ECM (no heat generation, takes up 1 1/2 tons and 2 crit slots thats it). The Atlas DC now has a downside IF you want to boat LRM's, that one limited scenario.

It has only one downside; if someone it trying to run a 3xLRM20 or 3LRM15 Artemis boat, they no longer can. That is it. For someone that is not trying to run one of those extreme LRM builds, they get a free card. If your team doesn't bring TAG, PPC or BAP to counter ECM, you're still ****** vs the DDC. How is that remotely balanced? You mean to tell me you're happy because you must focus on the LT to take out ECM instead of the RT to take out the AC20!? Pft! It would have been better if ECM was placed in the RT.

DocBach, on 06 June 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

having ECM confined to a single location doesn't balance it. for some reason the mindset is "if it can be destroyed, it must be balanced." Change its missile defeating properties to something more in tune with information warfare (how does being an anti missile system have anything to do with information denial?), and let people put it wherever. And while they are at it, remove the hardpoint restrictions for AMS. Some mechs that are coming out in the future don't have AMS in a side torso, some mount it in the head, some mount it in the arms, whatever.

+1.

DocBach, on 06 June 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

its still primarily used as antimissile - that's the only reason I use it, especially with seismic sensors being introduced. ECM doesn't have a place for information warfare, all it is is a better AMS. Unless of course information warfare's intended depth was solely to have equipment beat each other out so we can employ missiles.

Exactly. ECM doesn't perform its job. It does AMS's job..., better.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 07 June 2013 - 05:45 AM.

[Saberfal]

As per the placement of the ecm, I haven't had any issues with my builds by moving it to the LT.

I also like to think that the game is still in beta, and as such will continue be working towards a more complete and balanced product.

So along the way, there will be mishaps and facets that we're simply not going to be happy about.

You can have your ecm and still boast a good load out while providing additional functionality to your team.

In my understanding that is to better enable your team to work as a unit and complete the objective.

[Monky]

BAP /end thread

Seriously, you guys want to mess around with turning your ECM off and on when some ECM light comes into range?

Edited by Monky, 01 July 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[Fate 6]

HammerMaster, on 06 June 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

Nothing else goes in the CT. Does not make sense. Cripples a missle load out vs the stalker and highlander. Leg if you HAVE to but out of the LT nonetheless.

Atlas is not supposed to be a missile boat /thread

Neither is the Highlander, but that's for another thread.

[Elizander]

HammerMaster, on 06 June 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Yes possibly the other torso, but come on. NOTHING else mounts CT. There is No CT hardpoint. Empty space.

Put your BAP there.