43 replies to this topic

[Thomas Covenant]

My suggestion is that they make hero mechs available for everyone BUT to keep them valuable as mc items. I propose the cbill versions have the following limitations:

•Paint Locked
•$ Boost Disable

The paint is stuck to the stock colors, kind of like how it was before hero mechs could change paint. The cbill boost is also disabled.. the player can pay the hero mech price to activate the full unlock.

I have reasons I believe heroes being exclusive is not good, which I've talked about in another thread.

Thank you for considering my suggestion.

[Joe Mallad]

No.

[Thomas Covenant]

Why? Just curious.

[Volthorne]

Thomas Covenant, on 06 June 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

Why? Just curious.

Because it's a bad idea? It's basically pirating. Why pay for a Monopoly-money boost and a bit of fake paint when you can get the same thing for free? Bye bye revenue, see you again in NEVER.

Also, your other thread is complete garbage and got debunked by myself and others only about a hundred times.

Edited by Volthorne, 06 June 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[Neolisk]

Hero mechs have a different hardpoint layout, which makes them substantially "different" in some cases. Example: Misery. Suddenly I can put an AC20 into a Stalker, which I could not do before. Not a deal breaker, but it certainly adds an advantage. ACs are very strong weapons, as I recently discovered in my Jager-S. Hence, I agree with OP that a basic version of a hero mech should be available for C-Bills, which is just matched by hardpoints. No boosts, no paint, no special name. In case of Misery, I'd call such counterpart a STK-1B.

Thomas Covenant, on 06 June 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

My suggestion is that they make hero mechs available for everyone BUT to keep them valuable as mc items.

[Volthorne]

Neolisk, on 06 June 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Hero mechs have a different hardpoint layout, which makes them substantially "different" in some cases. Example: Misery. Suddenly I can put an AC20 into a Stalker, which I could not do before. Not a deal breaker, but it certainly adds an advantage. ACs are very strong weapons, as I recently discovered in my Jager-S. Hence, I agree with OP that a basic version of a hero mech should be available for C-Bills, which is just matched by hardpoints. No boosts, no paint, no special name. In case of Misery, I'd call such counterpart a STK-1B.

But to get that AC/20 you need to trade in a substantial quantity of OTHER hardpoints. Misery can carry only 1 missile weapon, for example, whereas another Stalker can carry 4+. Last I checked, x4 SRM6s dealt more damage than x1 AC/20 + x1 SRM6.

[Pater Mors]

Yeah we've had this discussion before and your initial post is misleading.

You link to your other topic but fail to mention here that your 'reasons' are flawed which has been shown to you over and over and by nearly everyone on these forums.

Hero Mechs are not Pay-to-win end of discussion.

[Thomas Covenant]

People don't have to agree with my reasons. If they like my suggestion they can vote for what ever reason they want.

[Deathlike]

Thomas Covenant, on 06 June 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

People don't have to agree with my reasons.

True, but you're not going to convince people to vote for your idea with that mindset.

Quote

If they like my suggestion they can vote for what ever reason they want.

The problem is that you are infringing on those that have paid for the mech, who are the primary candidates of voting you down.

My suggestion is to put a further restriction on the c-bill version of the hero mech that it can only have its basic efficiencies mastered, so that you will have to pay to get the full functionality. Perhaps, this might change the vote, but I'm sure some will say no.

Edited by Deathlike, 06 June 2013 - 03:53 PM.

[Pater Mors]

Can you give me any reasons why PGI should sacrifice one of their main revenue streams?

To me, this smacks of selfish entitlement. You want to play with all the toys without having to pay for all the toys. Just man up and open your wallet if you enjoy this game. If you don't, play for free or don't play at all. It's ludicrous to expect PGI to give up a massive source of their income so that you can have more shiny things to play with and it becomes utterly ridiculous when you try and do it under the guise of their current system being pay-to-win.

[Neolisk]

Volthorne, on 06 June 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

But to get that AC/20 you need to trade in a substantial quantity of OTHER hardpoints. Misery can carry only 1 missile weapon, for example, whereas another Stalker can carry 4+. Last I checked, x4 SRM6s dealt more damage than x1 AC/20 + x1 SRM6.

I went to smurfy mwo lab after posting this, and managed to pack a decent fire output with good cooling and armor, including an AC20 with 28 ammo. So LRM20+Artemis + 720 ammo, AC20, 2LL (arms), 1 med pulse + 16 DHS (stock engine, endo), if I remember correctly, packing ~5.5 consistent DPS, up to ~16 DPS, and what's important is 20 of that can be dealt in one shot with AC20. So you can insta kill in some cases. I am nowhere near pro in MWO, but I seriously consider this to be a good build. SRM6 are not as good due to spread. Last time I checked was before the last patch, so the situation may have changed.

Edited by Neolisk, 06 June 2013 - 04:18 PM.

[Neolisk]

Pater Mors, on 06 June 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

want to play with all the toys without having to pay for all the toys. Just man up and open your wallet if you enjoy this game.

So you think 30$ for a mech is fair, considering whole games are sold for that, usually with single player? If hero mechs were selling for 5$, nobody would complain I guess. This discussion is getting off-topic.

[Pater Mors]

Neolisk, on 06 June 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

I went to smurfy mwo lab after posting this, and managed to pack a decent fire output with good cooling and armor, including an AC20 with 28 ammo. So LRM20+Artemis + 720 ammo, AC20, 2LL (arms), 1 med pulse + 16 DHS (stock engine, endo), if I remember correctly, packing ~5.5 consistent DPS, up to ~16 DPS, and what's important is 20 of that can be dealt in one shot with AC20. So you can insta kill in some cases. I am nowhere near pro in MWO, but I seriously consider this to be a good build. SRM6 are not as good due to spread. Last time I checked was before the last patch, so the situation may have changed.

Just to prove a point on the pay-to-win front; here's a Highlander build that is very similar: HGN-733C

AC/20 - 28 rounds
ALRM20 - 720 rounds
2x LL
Only 12 DHS

5.13 consistent dps.
13.87 possible dps.
13 secs of constant firing to overheat.

I'd actually like to see your build because I am having trouble packing all that into a Highlander with a spare 5 tons (over Misery) without dropping either the engine capacity drastically or stripping off tons of armour. However, from just mucking about for 5 minutes with a 'free' build I believe that shows exactly how Misery (or any other Hero) is not p2w.

I could meet you in battle with the above build vs your Misery and have an even chance of beating you.

Neolisk, on 06 June 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

So you think 30$ for a mech is fair, considering whole games are sold for that, usually with single player? If hero mechs were selling for 5$, nobody would complain I guess. This discussion is getting off-topic.

Is that what I wrote up there? Gee... I was pretty sure that wasn't what I wrote. Looks like you jumped to a bit of a conclusion there, considering the price of the Mech's has nothing to do with Thomas's arguments.

Have you read the topic Thomas linked to? He wants this implemented because he's trying to argue that Hero mechs are currently pay-to-win, not because he believes they are too expensive. FWIW I agree with you and think they are too expensive which is why I don't own any and won't be buying one until either they come down in price or there is a very attractive sale on.

Edited by Pater Mors, 06 June 2013 - 04:31 PM.

[Neolisk]

Pater Mors, on 06 June 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Just to prove a point on the pay-to-win front; here's a Highlander build that is very similar: HGN-733C

I may have messed up some information in my head after a working day. When I tried to build it again, I managed to put only 13 DHS into it (not 16, and no MPL), or 12 DHS + MPL respectively, apparently, 16 was some other build I tried. Still, +1 DHS to your build with 5 less tons. Nevertheless, here is another "good" build I did in 5 minutes. Replaced AC20 with a Gauss rifle. It allows you to put one extra DHS and also generates less heat, so you can fire LL more often. Result - you get 6.43 consistent DPS, which is 50% more that my current 4LL build, which I sometimes use on my STK-3H. I mean right now getting more than 5DPS on a Stalker is something you can only achieve with LRM builds, and even then you max out at 5.5 I think. 6.43 is not possible at all.

I am sorry for misunderstanding your post. And no, I don't own a Misery either.

[Neolisk]

This build of Misery yields 7.38 consistent DPS. Still not OP/p2w? No other Stalker can give that, I challenge you!

[Pater Mors]

Neolisk, on 06 June 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

I may have messed up some information in my head after a working day. When I tried to build it again, I managed to put only 13 DHS into it (not 16, and no MPL), or 12 DHS + MPL respectively, apparently, 16 was some other build I tried. Still, +1 DHS to your build with 5 less tons. Nevertheless, here is another "good" build I did in 5 minutes. Replaced AC20 with a Gauss rifle. It allows you to put one extra DHS and also generates less heat, so you can fire LL more often. Result - you get 6.43 consistent DPS, which is 50% more that my current 4LL build, which I sometimes use on my STK-3H. I mean right now getting more than 5DPS on a Stalker is something you can only achieve with LRM builds, and even then you max out at 5.5 I think. 6.43 is not possible at all.

I am sorry for misunderstanding your post. And no, I don't own a Misery either.

lol, I was trying to figure out how you jammed 16 DHS and 2x MPL in there without running something less than a 200STD. I can tweak that Highlander to run either 2x ALRM15 or an ALRMx 20 and a ASRMx 6 but I feel like I am loosing too much speed and heat management to do it.

All good about the post. I am in staunch agreement that the prices in this game are too high. The only things that I agree with at the moment are Premium time and Mech bays and thus, they're the only things I've spent money on.

The irony of this topic (and Thomas's other one) is that I think a lot of people might agree with Thomas's premises if he didn't try and use pay-to-win as an argument.

[Pater Mors]

Neolisk, on 06 June 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

This build of Misery yields 7.38 consistent DPS. Still not OP/p2w? No other Stalker can give that, I challenge you!

STK-3F

7.76

It's viable, but I wouldn't want to pilot it 1v1. lol.

[Agent CraZy DiP]

By doing this it would remove the novelty of the mech chassis as well as what little uniqueness is found playing it on the battlefield.

[Neolisk]

Pater Mors, on 06 June 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

STK-3F
7.76
It's viable, but I wouldn't want to pilot it 1v1. lol.

Before LRM were upped to 1.1 dmg, this build would only yield ~6.35 DPS, and is very susceptible to short range combat, i.e. it dies fast to a brawler. The builds I mentioned are well balanced. It will work on Alpine and also on Caustic or Tourmaline (UAC or Gauss generate virtually no heat, even with ALRM20). Though it's a generally mid-range brawler, you would not want to meet him in close combat. Really, I cannot build this with other variants, because ballistic hardpoints are not available, and other weapons generate lots of heat, even LRMs, when continuously fired. Try using your LRM60 build on Caustic.

BTW, thanks for your LRM60 build - I may use it in the future as a base - it's much better than the one I used before.

Edited by Neolisk, 07 June 2013 - 03:36 AM.

[Pater Mors]

Neolisk, on 07 June 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

Before LRM were upped to 1.1 dmg, this build would only yield ~6.35 DPS, and is very susceptible to short range combat, i.e. it dies fast to a brawler. The builds I mentioned are well balanced. It will work on Alpine and also on Caustic or Tourmaline (UAC or Gauss generate virtually no heat, even with ALRM20). Though it's a generally mid-range brawler, you would not want to meet him in close combat. Really, I cannot build this with other variants, because ballistic hardpoints are not available, and other weapons generate lots of heat, even LRMs, when continuously fired. Try using your LRM60 build on Caustic.

BTW, thanks for your LRM60 build - I may use it in the future as a base - it's much better than the one I used before.

lol, it's true but you failed to specify the rules of the challenge! Also thanks for that, I don't own any Stalkers (and rarely ever boat anything) and just made that build up off the top of my head. Feel free to steal it, lol.

I feel my point still stands though, that Hero Mech's are not P2W. The other Stalker chassis all have their strengths and Misery is not over powered compare to any of them (point in case being that I fear Jag's on the field much more than a Stalker of any variant). You still have to worry about ammo consumption for your main weapon, where a 4x PPC Stalker does not.

Edited by Pater Mors, 07 June 2013 - 04:08 AM.