597 replies to this topic

[SMDMadCow]

I dunno, I can see it being abused once the numbers are out.

[xDeityx]

SMDMadCow, on 10 June 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

I dunno, I can see it being abused once the numbers are out.

How? People who would troll with it are already trolling. Immature people will be immature.

[Chavette]

xDeityx, on 10 June 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

How? People who would troll with it are already trolling. Immature people will be immature.

The best part is, the people who troll are generally not the best players, most here will agree.

So as an added bonus, people would get a free lesson on humbleness and good manners too!

Edited by Chavette, 10 June 2013 - 07:58 AM.

[Vodrin Thales]

PEEFsmash, on 06 June 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

I wanted to take a short break from discussing token balance changes and talk about something broader.

I believe that Elo ratings should be made public, and here is why.

Bad idea. I've played multiple multiplayer online games with public stats. It leads to some players "gaming" the system to stack stats. I guarantee you will see some players that will spend hours dropping against alt accounts in sinced 8 mans to stack their ELO. You will also see some of the higher rated players looking down their nose at players with average or worse stats. You will see all kinds of bad behavior to stack K/D, and to try to stack the deck to get wins for players that are not that good.

I understand what you are getting at, but those that play in 8 mans know who the better players are, and this change would cause far more harm than good.

What we really need are PGI run tournaments, or tools for third party tournaments with tools allowing other players to spectate these matches. It's a much better way to illustrate who the better players are without alienating the average player and new players.

[Milt]

pgi ran tournaments are crap. i mean really? who should have the higher score, someone with 252 pts of damage and 8 kills or someone with 1000pts and 8 kills? notice that 252 is the minumum damage to solo kill 8 opponents. granted that that is an overexaggeration but, 8 crit headshots compared with 1000 damage and 8 kills. the better player would lose that tourney. elo should and needs to be public. its the only way for this game to become competitive without outside sources.

[Soy]

If I saw someone get 8 headshots in a single round for the win,

I'd log out, uninstall, and move on to my next endeavor.

Srsly.

[xDeityx]

Vodrin Thales, on 10 June 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Bad idea. I've played multiple multiplayer online games with public stats. It leads to some players "gaming" the system to stack stats. I guarantee you will see some players that will spend hours dropping against alt accounts in sinced 8 mans to stack their ELO.

The only thing that artificially inflating your Elo rating will do is to guarantee you get stomped when you stop playing against your straw men. Actually the real concern is the opposite - people 'tanking' their Elo on purpose so that they play against easy opponents right before a PGI challenge/tournament starts. This happens with public or private Elo ratings.

Vodrin Thales, on 10 June 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

You will also see some of the higher rated players looking down their nose at players with average or worse stats.

This already happens. So what? I'm sure people will live through someone looking down their nose at them. If the 'leet players' act like jerks publicly then all the better, we just exposed some jerks.

Vodrin Thales, on 10 June 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

You will see all kinds of bad behavior to stack K/D, and to try to stack the deck to get wins for players that are not that good.

Why? What's the incentive? If you have an Elo rating that is way higher than your actual skill, you will just get murdered repeatedly.

Vodrin Thales, on 10 June 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

I understand what you are getting at, but those that play in 8 mans know who the better players are, and this change would cause far more harm than good.

That's the problem - our 8v8 scene is so trash right now because it looks like PGI is doing their balancing by popular opinion. We don't really even have any 'pro' competitors because anyone who cares about true competition wouldn't touch this unbalanced game with a 10-foot pole. All we have left are the die-hard 'mech fans who are hoping that PGI will somehow redeem themselves with Community Warfare.

Vodrin Thales, on 10 June 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

What we really need are PGI run tournaments, or tools for third party tournaments with tools allowing other players to spectate these matches. It's a much better way to illustrate who the better players are without alienating the average player and new players.

What we really need is to get as much data as possible as public as possible so that the community can do the job (for free) that PGI is incapable of doing.

[SMDMadCow]

xDeityx, on 10 June 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

How? People who would troll with it are already trolling. Immature people will be immature.

Higher elo players joining with 3 low elo players to get easy games to stat pad and the like. Out of game, just look at the WoT forums for a perfect example of that (with win%, not elo).

[Livewyr]

Soy, on 10 June 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

That's funny; cuz I just did.

Thus the loaded question that you can't answer cuz you know the truth.

HEHEHE.

I'll answer half of your question with this:
"It's a bad comparison; Basketball Rules are determined by the NBA (*cough* PGI).. not Kobe Bryant or Lebron James." (Assuming they're still relevant at the time of this post.)
(Same with MLB, NFL, etc..)

Now please, answer the questions.

FrDrake, on 10 June 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

You wanted an argument for public Elo.

I will tell you this, the top Elo people from other games generate LOTS of interest by streaming, published Elo so someone can stream and say they are XXXX Elo will generate alot of interest as people watch their stream to pick up their tips and tricks. LoL grew fast but when HotShotGG started streaming it really kicked the game to the next level and now tons of top players stream and generate lots of public interest, like regular sports celebrities in the NFL etc.

I know this digresses from the spirit of the rest of the thread, but it's the best point I can come up with as to your question.

M e g a M a n X, on 10 June 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

the same can be done without public ELO just good players streaming

FrDrake, on 10 June 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Who says they're good, they do? You see 6 MWO streams going at one time, which one do you watch. Do you sit in each of them so you can determine the skill of each streamer to see if you want to stay. Or if they had in their title 2200+ MWO Stream, while the rest don't say anything, which one do you think you will find the vast majority of viewers in. Be honest in your answer, you know how viewers are.

The quality of play in the video shows their skill. (Accurate shooting, well performed maneuvers.. etc..)

Would a posted Elo score help guide a person to that video? (Assuming they post their real Elo rating) Yes, but that doesn't outweigh the crap released.

-----------------------------------------

Diety: Read the questions posed in Post #488- that's your biggest unbiased , un"scurrd" opposition to this failboat of an idea.

[Tekyio Wolf]

++ I want to see my elo ++

[Soy]

Livewyr, yes...

Exactly - determined by NBA, not the players.

But how did it get to that point?

Cuz people said, "hey we like watching/playing basketball, can we organize this properly with good fair rules that elevate the competitive nature of basketball? and while we're at it, that will give us metrics over time to determine who is good enough to elevate to the top and we can watch them play for fun and then when we step outside in the back yard, emulate some of that in our own style and way?"

Edited by Soy, 10 June 2013 - 08:30 AM.

[M e g a M a n X]

FrDrake, on 10 June 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

I will tell you this, the top Elo people from other games generate LOTS of interest by streaming, published Elo so someone can stream and say they are XXXX Elo will generate alot of interest as people watch their stream to pick up their tips and tricks. LoL grew fast but when HotShotGG started streaming it really kicked the game to the next level and now tons of top players stream and generate lots of public interest, like regular sports celebrities in the NFL etc.

M e g a M a n X, on 10 June 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

the same can be done without public ELO just good players streaming

FrDrake, on 10 June 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Who says they're good, they do? You see 6 MWO streams going at one time, which one do you watch. Do you sit in each of them so you can determine the skill of each streamer to see if you want to stay. Or if they had in their title 2200+ MWO Stream, while the rest don't say anything, which one do you think you will find the vast majority of viewers in. Be honest in your answer, you know how viewers are.

Of course i'll watch the one with the title 2200+.

But which one will generate lots of interest (the word that you used)? 6 valid and legitimate MWO streams
publicized without ELO wherein players would watch all of them, or 6 MWO with ELO wherein players will only watch the one with "title 2200+"?

Is there really a need for public ELO just for streaming?

If someone posts a tutorial vid here in the forum i'll automatically watch them without bias on the player's name or rep. Because i do not make claims that I'm good. I watch and it turns out the player is not topnotch. I still benefit since im a beginner. I watch another and it turns out hes one of the best. I'm happy

Later i get better. i watch another vid. Turns out im better than the poster. I only need to watch his video once to know that im better than him, i'll watch from another player's stream as a decision.

There's no need for public ELO in this streaming scenario. There would be interest as long as there are
streamers (especially now that there's just a small number of vids here). Better if there's no number attached to a name because there would be more viewers because there's no bias in watching a stream which would motivate viewers to watch all of them. I would know anyway from first view if i can receive any form of learning from the poster.

Try it. Request for tutorial/protip vids and post it in the forum. I'm sure most regular forumers here will watch it without asking for that player's ELO. And if those who watch realizes the players is good, for sure he will have a consistent audience later on. We are not actually stupid to not know who is good or not without ELO rating since we are players too, we can gauge it without ELO. If that streamer is really good then he will still generate lots of interest and kick the game into a whole new level. Without people knowing (or asking) for his ELO

Edited by M e g a M a n X, 10 June 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[Bloody Moon]

Honestly the Solo Tournaments so far have been mediocre at best and who has been noticed so far from them? Koreanese and it took him one week of owning to get to that point when he is widely recognized. I'd be willing to bet that there are a dozen if not more players on similar skill level, yet no one aside from a few is aware of how good those players are.

I really don't care if ELO is published or not anymore, but sure as hell these PGI Tournaments are not enough if we want to see who are the players that dominate the battlefield today.

[Vodrin Thales]

xDeityx, on 10 June 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

The only thing that artificially inflating your Elo rating will do is to guarantee you get stomped when you stop playing against your straw men. Actually the real concern is the opposite - people 'tanking' their Elo on purpose so that they play against easy opponents right before a PGI challenge/tournament starts. This happens with public or private Elo ratings.

True they get killed when they drop against real players, but if they only enter real drops 3-4 times a night, and play against "straw men" as you call them for the rest, they can still maintain an inflated ELO for the purpose of coming to the forums or chat rooms and lording their "knowledge" of the game over others. Sad thing is that some fairly skilled players will do this. I've seen it in multiple games with public K/D, and W/L stats.

You will also see teams that use tactics like having one sacrificial group that consistently pulls heavy groups away from their base to fight what will be a suicidal action allowing their other mechs to cap and other generally unfun tactics. Their just isn't enough to be gained from public ELO or K/D to justify doing it. Anyone with online game experience and an ounce of brains can figure out about where they are in the general level of competition, and where other players are. This isn't that large a game population, and probably never will be.

[Vodrin Thales]

Bloody Moon, on 10 June 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Honestly the Solo Tournaments so far have been mediocre at best and who has been noticed so far from them? Koreanese and it took him one week of owning to get to that point when he is widely recognized. I'd be willing to bet that there are a dozen if not more players on similar skill level, yet no one aside from a few is aware of how good those players are.

I really don't care if ELO is published or not anymore, but sure as hell these PGI Tournaments are not enough if we want to see who are the players that dominate the battlefield today.

This is absolutely correct. Team tournaments with the ability to publicly spectate the match are the real ticket to finding out who the better players are and generating increased interest in the game. Public ELO generates more problems than positive results.

[Roughneck45]

I do think that we should be able to see our ELO scores.

But, there is a strong enough reason to not show us. PGI has said that the system can be fixed if the player fully understands how it works. Showing us our ELO would be one step closer to that.

So, although i'd love to know what my score is, it is best to leave it undisclosed.

[Livewyr]

Roughneck45, on 10 June 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

I do think that we should be able to see our ELO scores.

But, there is a strong enough reason to not show us. PGI has said that the system can be fixed if the player fully understands how it works. Showing us our ELO would be one step closer to that.

So, although i'd love to know what my score is, it is best to leave it undisclosed.

This.
I would like to know my own Elo score.. but it just isn't justified against the inevitable side effects.

[Chavette]

Roughneck45, on 10 June 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

I do think that we should be able to see our ELO scores.

But, there is a strong enough reason to not show us. PGI has said that the system can be fixed if the player fully understands how it works. Showing us our ELO would be one step closer to that.

So, although i'd love to know what my score is, it is best to leave it undisclosed.

They actually told us how it works. You don't lose elo if you lose against a stronger team, and you dont win elo points when winning against a lower elo team. Who'd want to game it and why?

[GrimlockONE]

Svalfangr, on 06 June 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

No the last thing this forum needs is more elitism.

It is not for elitism but for perspective. The OP was correct in stating there are different levels of game play at different ELO ratings. I do not see it being a tremendous issue regarding elitism, as other games have made player levels,skill, and ELO ratings public. Halo 2, BF3, and Hawken would be examples.

[Chavette]

Livewyr, on 10 June 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

-------------------------
Two things horribly wrong with your comparison now:
1: Player metrics added AFTER the game was finalized. (or at least out of "Alpha" stage)
2: Player metrics added AFTER the game was finalized in order for companies (and fans) to track players for trading and such... not for players to "have more say" in the rules than others.

The problem with this is you can't build a complex game with multiple viable roles by only listening to people who don't use cover, and don't like team play.

Its a loop in itself.

You need feedback from all levels to build the game, instead of holding everything off until its finished and hope you magically get it right.

Simple input makes simple game, I don't know how to say it in any other ways.

Edited by Chavette, 10 June 2013 - 08:54 AM.