597 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Soy, on 10 June 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

Quick question, Live.

Did the concept of regulating sports institutions as they establish themselves culturally and institutionally, give rise to a more competitive scene, as well as providing a foundation for the casual scene to emulate and foster participation for the development of skilled individuals to trickle upwards into the upper eschelons of their sport?

Yes or no.

Pick your sport, go ahead.

Hehe.

I will answer your question.. when you answer mine.

Pick your question, go ahead.

Hehe.

[MaddMaxx]

DaZur, on 07 June 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

You don't make Elo public for the same reason you don't go to a slaughterhouse to see how your hamburgers and hotdogs are made...

Some things are better left unseen.

LOL! I used to work at a large Bakery. I do not, nor will I ever again, eat White Bread.

[Soy]

Livewyr, on 10 June 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

I will answer your question.. when you answer mine.

Pick your question, go ahead.

Hehe.

That's funny; cuz I just did.

Thus the loaded question that you can't answer cuz you know the truth.

HEHEHE.

Edited by Soy, 10 June 2013 - 05:59 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Soy, on 10 June 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

That's funny; cuz I just did.

Thus the loaded question that you can't answer cuz you know the truth.

HEHEHE.

That truth is this is a video game played on the Internet. The others are not. See, simple right? Get a grip good sir.

[Soy]

Ok let me break it down for you, Madmoron.

Do pro golfers play from the front tees?

Do pro baseball players hit from a tee?

Is the hoop as short in the NBA as it is on a peewee court?

Do they play flag football in the NFL?

Does NASCAR slow down so the guy in the back can catch up?

PGI in this case is the organizational body that has lots of data. They can choose whether or not to utilize this data to balance the game in different ways. One of the most important ways to balance the game would be to give consideration to what is being utilized effectively and effeciently at the most competitive tier of the game. This is not rocket science, kid. Guess what - every single one of those things I just named is emulated in video games. Ever played a sports game? Oh no, looks like you need to get that grip.

Competitive instutitions in real life are no different than competitive institutions in an online game. Cuz online games are a part of real life. Just like sports. Even 'edgy' sports have to develop rules that foster healthy and fair competition; in fact, this has to occur before they are considered to be legit in terms of competition and accepted as palatable to a culture [audience/participants]. Nobody plays "Underwater Basket Weaving" cuz it doesn't exist, and it if did, there'd have to be some sort of development of regulation for the game to become legitimate (able to quantify actual skill or meaning for win/loss).

Sports aren't regulated and goverened at the highest level for professionals, in the same manner that they are for kids. There are differences there that slowly raise the stakes and become more and more complex or competitive as players are developed and the game itself matures. Not everyone gets to be a pro athlete. Not everybody can be a top pilot in MWO. This is what makes it special, and entertaining to watch or play at any level - the fairness of the competitive nature of the game/sport and the organization or lack thereof that dictates your place in it.

This doesn't necessarily mean that ELO should be public, far from it - but it definitely means that the competitive nature of the game can only be properly viewed through a perspective that accounts for competitive play.

Edited by Soy, 10 June 2013 - 06:29 AM.

[FrDrake]

Livewyr, how many PPCs make a boat?

Does "boating" them start at 4, or is 3 still a PPC boat?

[FrDrake]

You wanted an argument for public Elo.

I will tell you this, the top Elo people from other games generate LOTS of interest by streaming, published Elo so someone can stream and say they are XXXX Elo will generate alot of interest as people watch their stream to pick up their tips and tricks. LoL grew fast but when HotShotGG started streaming it really kicked the game to the next level and now tons of top players stream and generate lots of public interest, like regular sports celebrities in the NFL etc.

I know this digresses from the spirit of the rest of the thread, but it's the best point I can come up with as to your question.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

If my ELO was public it would just prove how badly the weapons are in need of balance and PGI aint got time for that.

[CECILOFS]

xDeityx, on 06 June 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

WoW.LoL. Neither game has suffered for it.

No elitist jerks telling people they suck in either of those games. No, sir!

[M e g a M a n X]

FrDrake, on 10 June 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

You wanted an argument for public Elo.

I will tell you this, the top Elo people from other games generate LOTS of interest by streaming, published Elo so someone can stream and say they are XXXX Elo will generate alot of interest as people watch their stream to pick up their tips and tricks. LoL grew fast but when HotShotGG started streaming it really kicked the game to the next level and now tons of top players stream and generate lots of public interest, like regular sports celebrities in the NFL etc.

I know this digresses from the spirit of the rest of the thread, but it's the best point I can come up with as to your question.

the same can be done without public ELO just good players streaming

[Soy]

CECILOFS, on 10 June 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

No elitist jerks telling people they suck in either of those games. No, sir!

Show me one game that doesn't have that.

Farmville? SimCity? Big Truck Simulator 2012?

Are we playing a PvP game, orrrrrrrrr

[CECILOFS]

Besides, when there is officially supported competition, we will all be able to see who the top teams are without seeing ELO. Then people can choose to follow their favourite players and so on.

[FrDrake]

M e g a M a n X, on 10 June 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

the same can be done without public ELO just good players streaming

Who says they're good, they do? You see 6 MWO streams going at one time, which one do you watch. Do you sit in each of them so you can determine the skill of each streamer to see if you want to stay. Or if they had in their title 2200+ MWO Stream, while the rest don't say anything, which one do you think you will find the vast majority of viewers in. Be honest in your answer, you know how viewers are.

[CECILOFS]

Soy, on 10 June 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Show me one game that doesn't have that.

Farmville? SimCity? Big Truck Simulator 2012?

Are we playing a PvP game, orrrrrrrrr

Fair call, which is just more reason not to give players more ways to abuse other players IMO.

[Soy]

CECILOFS, on 10 June 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Besides, when there is officially supported competition, we will all be able to see who the top teams are without seeing ELO. Then people can choose to follow their favourite players and so on.

Dude, reality is CW will make all this crap completely irrelevant.

And I tend to agree with your immediate post above; this is much more fun and pragmatic than looking at stat pages.

Edited by Soy, 10 June 2013 - 07:06 AM.

[Lord of All]

PEEFsmash, on 09 June 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

Hey you angryman over there! Do you know how Elo-based matchmaking works? It is a system designed to get everyone to a win/loss ratio of 1:1. Only the players at the very top and the very bottom will have win rates that deviate much from 1:1.

I don't think you have any clue whatsoever about what your spewing forth. Try reading instead of making garbage up.

http://en.wikipedia....o_rating_system

[Bilbo]

FrDrake, on 10 June 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Who says they're good, they do? You see 6 MWO streams going at one time, which one do you watch. Do you sit in each of them so you can determine the skill of each streamer to see if you want to stay. Or if they had in their title 2200+ MWO Stream, while the rest don't say anything, which one do you think you will find the vast majority of viewers in. Be honest in your answer, you know how viewers are.

If I were going to sit and watch somebody else play a videogame, which is highly doubtful, I'd work my way through them until I found one I enjoyed watching.

[Chavette]

People will always favor the play style that requires the least effort for the highest rewards.

This might be a shocker, but for the last two months brawling was almost as effective as ever, you just had to put a little more effort into it. Coordination, element of surprise, all that good stuff the average player have no idea even existed in mwo. And I don't really blame them, they don't really have a source on how to play the game outside from a tutorial for basic controls and monkeying what other pugs do on their same elo. How should they learn from that?

On the other hand, since we are talking about LoL alot, after 15 matches players are familiar with the current meta, and try pick a team accordingly for the highest chance of winning. They didn't all figure it out themselves, they saw it from the top players, and then themselves gained the experience that it indeed works. It became part of the game culture, as most people want to win, and that specific setup has is the most effective.

To put it all in once sentence, one thing that a public bracket system would do is add validity to the opinion of the players with the highest win ratio, and publicity for what they have to say would both help form a game culture, and get a distilled view on balance problems.

Most the naysayers here argue it would force some cheese on all the game, and they couldn't play what they like. Its not the players' fault that some weapons are abusively strong when used in proper coordination, its a simple game balance/design issue(ie. Ecm 3L some time ago).

How is PGI trying to form some game culture or teamwork incentive with no player brackets, featured livestreamers, 8v8 tournament support is beyond me, I don't even think they know about the problem, when their own 8 mans have no concept and feature 3 jumping headless spiders on average.

Instead, they just nerf everything in the world so Rambo Billybob can equip random weapons of his choice, hit W at the start of the game and have an equal chance of winning against every other play style in the game.

CECILOFS, on 10 June 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Besides, when there is officially supported competition, we will all be able to see who the top teams are without seeing ELO. Then people can choose to follow their favourite players and so on.

I'm afraid they are in a state of not even knowing/understanding the need for such a thing.

Edited by Chavette, 10 June 2013 - 07:23 AM.

[xDeityx]

I just caught up on this thread after being gone all weekend. It seems to me that the biggest opposition to the idea of public elo is the fear that people will be mean with it. I'm unsure how to make a rational argument against such an irrational fear.

Just imagine a future thread in a public elo setting. A low-Elo player makes a claim that is totally valid when all of the sudden your worst nightmares come true - some troll tells him that his Elo rating is too low and his point is not valid after all! So what? What happens then? 1 guy looks like an a-hole and one guy has his feelings hurt by said a-hole. The adults continue the discussion as normal. Sounds like every other day on the internet to me.

Seriously, since when has "but someone might hurt someone's feelings with this information" become a valid reason for halting progress?

[Milt]

public elo would be amazind imo. it would give ppl a real feel for how they are doing and an incentive to improve. Right now as the game stands its fun to win but my **** poor play giving me success isnt making me better at all.