291 replies to this topic

[William Mountbank]

A5mod3us, on 07 June 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

...the way radar works in this game is completely stupid. A mech should already be able to see at the very least what's behind it.

>Line of Sight.<

I think I understand why people love Seismic so much. It removes all effort needed to out think your enemy.

[Thundercles]

I think a lot of the discontent around seismic is that its new and different, and therefore must be bad. (Where's that "adapt or die?" BS attitude that gets tossed around everywhere else?) In all seriousness, the concept is fine... even appropriate. The range is fine. The only tweaks that I think need to be made (and this is opinion) is on the resolution of the scanner, and POTENTIALLY a throttle % variance on resolution as well. The underlying tech is simple enough, we have stuff today that can track a person's footfalls ~20-30m, all it takes is a decent computer to crunch the data.

It would be my suggestion that only ONE of these changes be implemented (if any) at a time to test the effects before implementing another.

Change 1.) Make the contacts slightly bigger/fuzzier - this makes it so that two mechs running in very tight formation can spoof the sensors into appearing as a single blip. Much trolling of the seismic sensor can be had with that simple change alone.

Change 2.) Throttle variance:
0%-25% throttle: maximum resolution of the sensor
25%-75% throttle: linear degradation of resolution (minimum resolution having blips twice the size of best resolution, adjustable for balance)
75%+ throttle: resolution degradation caps at 75% throttle

[Tennex]

it needs to be free to everybody.

[Sephlock]

Tennex, on 07 June 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

it needs to be free to everybody.

I would have agreed with this, but I've already invested in the module, so... .

Also, just as an aside:

I think Narc should have a function similar to that of Seismic, in that once a mech is tagged, they should show up on allied minimaps for as long as the beacon is active (which should be FOREVER! FOREVER!!!!!!!!)

[Livewyr]

Did not vote: There wasn't an option for "OP's idea, and a little farther."

1st: Agreed, make it only functional while the mech is standing still. (Makes sense for two reasons; Seismic sensors are placed on stable platforms, (for obvious reasons) and seismic sensors don't get very good (if any) readings on farther anomalies when something massive is stomping about around them.
(Also, it adds a little give for all that take.)

2nd: Make it only detect the direction of the seismic anomaly, not the distance. One needs 2 Seismic measures from different angles (and time) to get an epicenter, or it needs 3.. 1 alone will only give you a rough direction.


Give Halo back it's radar.

----------
(If PGI wants to network them in the future so 2-3 mechs sitting still can pinpoint seismic anomalies, great idea!)

Edited by Livewyr, 07 June 2013 - 04:39 AM.

[Yankee77]

Firstly, this is an interesting proposal. I personally don't mind seismic sensor as it is (mostly because IMO anything that enhances situational awareness tends to make things more enjoyable for the average players).... but this is a good solution if there is a problem.

That said....

Appogee, on 07 June 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

Implementing this balancing solution would require just one additional line of code...
IF Speed >0.1 THEN [bypass Seismic Sensor module readout].

NOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOooooo!

You just killed another angel! Stop that!

Don't you know that whenever someone pretends to know that some change in ANY complex software should be an easy change to do, an angel dies? I mean it, they do, and it's terrible. Since the advent of the internet entire angelic hordes have fallen! Stop the massacre!

You even think you know that it should take a single line of code! And you wrote it down for the devs! That's at LEAST one more angel right there!

STOP IT. For the love of all that is holy, think of the children!

Because no, it's never that simple. It's a good idea, but don't try and tell the devs it would be easy. You really have no idea, unless you happen to have taken a peek at their source code repositor... and if even then, you'd probably still be wrong (because if coders were always right, we wouldn't need QA departments ).

Thank you.

[Appogee]

A5mod3us, on 07 June 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

So, you're mad ...

No. I'm not ''mad''. I merely made an observation on a module in the interest of improved game balance FFS.

A5mod3us, on 07 June 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

...because seismic sensor allows you to see what your radar should be able to see in the first place?

No. My radar should not be able to see around corners or over hills.

Edited by Appogee, 07 June 2013 - 05:30 AM.

[Appogee]

Itkovian, on 07 June 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

Don't you know that whenever someone pretends to know that some change in ANY complex software should be an easy change to do, an angel dies?

I write computer code. Seismic is most likely just a function which adds indicators to the minimap. They're either visible (if you have Seismic module) or not. Perhaps that seems mysteriously magical and incredibly complex, but it's not. At their hearts, programs are just ordered calls to modular sub-routines which modify values in memory and display results..

The fact that Seismic was added as a module amply demonstrates this.

Itkovian, on 07 June 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

Because no, it's never that simple... You really have no idea, unless you happen to have taken a peek at their source code repositor...

Feel welcome to disprove me with the same source code you think I need to have seen. Til then I'll go with my 20 years of personal experience writing code, to know that what I'm proposing is quite simple.

Edited by Appogee, 07 June 2013 - 05:44 AM.

[CygnusX7]

Save up the bills and you can have one too.

[Stoicblitzer]

sad to say because i love it but it needs to be nerfed. people who don't have it wonder why i am waiting for them to come around the corner. no wallhacks. sometimes we both have one and we are waiting for each other lol. blip....blip....blip...

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 07 June 2013 - 05:44 AM.

[Reith Dynamis]

I'm fine with it as is.

The problem is that people are accustomed to MWO without it, but every mechwarrior game had a radar that worked in the same fashion except the red dot didn't fade like a radar ping. If we had this at the get go there would have been no whining. Also we have a lore stand point to justify it.

Battle Computer/Targeting & Tracking system

"The Battle Computer (BC), located in the cockpit, coordinates and monitors the overall movement and weapons fire. It is the BC that makes sure that the MechWarrior's commands have priority. The BC makes certain that weapons are pointed towards what the MechWarrior is indicating, even if that requires overriding other systems and warnings and putting an arm through the wall of a nearby building. It is the BC that does the computing for "Targeting and Tracking.

The BC is the "gateway" that filters the data from the DI computer, converting it to information that is useful for the MechWarrior so the MechWarrior does not need to interpret it. It also coordinates all of the weapons Targeting and Tracking (T&T) systems, feeding them and the MechWarrior data on internal checks that the DI computer has run. The BC also controls the Target Interlock Circuits (TIC) of the 'Mech.

"BattleMech targeting and tracking systems consist more than just the BC - the system is a network of sophisticated sensors, sub-computers, and programming. Thermal imaging, light amplification, radar, laser tracking, uv tracking, and magnetic anomaly sensors are generally used as primary sensors, supplemented by seismic sensors, motion detectors, chemical analyzers, microwave, tracking, and many others, depending on what equipment a 'Mech mounts. However, MechWarriors are not overwhelmed with raw data... The BC compresses, interprets, and prioritizes the information. When the MechWarrior gets the info, it is displayed on the cockpit displays or on the neurohelmet heads-up display (HUD) in with all the various selected sensor information synthesized into a single viewing mode, with important things tagged by the computer with graphic icons"

Source. http://www.sarna.net...Mech_Technology

Everyone one needs to get over it.

Edited by Reith Dynamis, 07 June 2013 - 05:47 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

A5mod3us, on 07 June 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

So, you're mad because seismic sensor allows you to see what your radar should be able to see in the first place? The only reason they added seismic was because the way radar works in this game is completely stupid. A mech should already be able to see at the very least what's behind it.

Then fix radar.

Sephlock, on 07 June 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

I would have agreed with this, but I've already invested in the module, so... .

Then I would get my cbills and GXP back. I don't mind.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 07 June 2013 - 06:14 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Appogee, on 07 June 2013 - 01:10 AM, said:

I held off buying Seismic precisely because I expected PGI to nerf it in the last patch because it seems so totally OP.

But I plonked down the 6M CBills earlier this week just to see what all the fuss was about.

I have been blown away by the tactical advantage it gives anyone who has it.

This is how PGi will justify 3rd person View (they don't have to, I know) Seismic sensors can reveal more positional data, than a panned out view, all that is missing is what the mech is

[William Mountbank]

I had trouble with the LoS radar concept when I started MWO at the beginning, but now I enjoy it for what it is: a challenge to my mental skills to get inside the mind of the other player and plan my moves accordingly. Up until seismic I was rewarded for out thinking other players, and punished for being tricked by them. Now I don't have to think about where they are going to be, I can see it. I'm not against seismic because minimap pips are somehow 'new and unaccustomed' to me, I'm against it because it reverts a game about outsmarting other players to a game of running straight at them and shooting.

But I seem to be in the vast minority, so I'll suggest another thing that gets in the way of running forwards and shooting. Terrain. Why can't every map just be a vast open plain, so that it's easier for us to run at each other shooting? That would be so much easier than the current meta of manoeuvring and tactical positioning! This would also solve the problem of those pesky lights getting damage scores as high as the Atlases!

[StalaggtIKE]

I can't speak for anyone else, but myself. My beef with seismic, is it skews the whole risk vs reward mechanic. I equip the module, I know where that ambush lies and I know where that stray scout is heading. I've used no planning or risk assessment on my part, only acting. After everyone get's it 90% of the games will simply involve us standing around the ridge waiting for someone else to make the move (as if we don't already do this enough. )

Soy, on 07 June 2013 - 02:04 AM, said:

no bra, you did. you missed the point about what risk vs reward is. and what a HARD counter is. introducing more things into the game is exactly what it needs. it needs more content. but people cry when new content is added cuz they can't look farther than a goldfish into the future and see that this is a beta with things being tested and balanced in time. they can either change seismic at the mechanical root to nerf some of the reward from it, or they can introduce a hard counter to it that hedges risk for using seismic by the possibility of it being rendered moot in some situations at the cost of a precious module slot.

Better game development involves equipment being added to be used on a player's merit alone, not due to necessity to compete.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 07 June 2013 - 06:21 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

I wonder if it will be OP if they intriduce any dampners in the future, or decoys?

[Major_Crash]

Seismic is good. Not sure it *should* be nerfed, but in case it does, I think it is better to reduce the tick rate between pulses on map to 3-5 seconds per pulse. Lights in this way are less trackable due to high speed. Reducing range of this module is not the proper way of nerfing it.

[El Bandito]

William Mountbank, on 07 June 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

I had trouble with the LoS radar concept when I started MWO at the beginning, but now I enjoy it for what it is: a challenge to my mental skills to get inside the mind of the other player and plan my moves accordingly. Up until seismic I was rewarded for out thinking other players, and punished for being tricked by them. Now I don't have to think about where they are going to be, I can see it. I'm not against seismic because minimap pips are somehow 'new and unaccustomed' to me, I'm against it because it reverts a game about outsmarting other players to a game of running straight at them and shooting. But I seem to be in the vast minority, so I'll suggest another thing that gets in the way of running forwards and shooting. Terrain. Why can't every map just be a vast open plain, so that it's easier for us to run at each other shooting? That would be so much easier than the current meta of manoeuvring and tactical positioning! This would also solve the problem of those pesky lights getting damage scores as high as the Atlases!

Technically, Seismic still allows ways to outsmart your opponent, just from further range.

[Appogee]

CygnusX7, on 07 June 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Battle Computer/Targeting & Tracking system
(bunch of stuff about how Mechs have lots of sensors of all different kinds, which includes seismic.)

No way does that support the OP way Seismic Sensor has been implemented in MWO. It merely mentions Seismic in passing as one of an array of integrated sensors. Nowhere does it say that Seismic magically provides data about enemy locations in a several hundred metre wide radius, even in places where the Mech's radar can't detect them.

Sarna mentions Mechs have thermal sensors. By your logic that should be enough justification for PGI to implement full thermal images of enemy Mechs through hills and buildings.

CygnusX7, on 07 June 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Everyone one needs to get over it.

No. BattleTech has a long and rich history. It deserves better than having game-changing inventions shovelled into it without care, thought or precedent.

Edited by Appogee, 07 June 2013 - 07:04 AM.

[Volts]

I think they should make it purchasable by MC only, and only if you are a member of the Legendary Founder Overhive.