91 replies to this topic

[Loxx]

Many of the poptart haters have claimed that a continuous vectored thrust would cause "shake" in the vehicle while under the thrust load moment. Allow me to present the Harrier Jump Jet.

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=QVr671ceK9I

By all means please explain where the shake is?

It doesn't bother me that poptarting is practically dead. It was getting boring and honestly I was terrible at it. What I am worried about is the continuous dumbing down of the game with heavy handed nerfs because people would rather complain and create new physical laws out of thin air then engage their brain housing group and come up with creative methods to counter viable tactics. I just hope your happy with what the future is going to bring now that poptarts are gone.
Atlas online?
Splat / streak online?
LRM online?

We'll see. One thing I know, the goods will roll with the punches. The bads will keep trying to dumb down the game until it's Hello Kitty Online.

[InRev]

Considering how the Harrier is known to be one of the most unforgiving and difficult jets to fly, especially while performing VTOL, this was not exactly the best example to prove your point.

[Raso]

Yeah..... I'm not really concerned with physics. I'll be flat out honest, I feel that you poptarts are the worst thing to happen to the game since the streak cat. But, hey, if you enjoy playing a game where only, like, 6 builds are viable (and they all use JJs and ERPPC) well that's your prerogative. But that game sounds like ****. Something had to be done. Maybe it was the wrong way to go about it but I'll take it for now.

Next we need to find way to make brawling viable again and find some way to convince people that there are other close range weapons than the AC20. I mean for crying out loud the game's balance is all out of whack and you're gonna sit here and complain that there's suddenly a reason to use a mech other than a poptart? Seriously

[GrimlockONE]

Raso, on 04 June 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

Yeah..... I'm not really concerned with physics. I'll be flat out honest, I feel that you poptarts are the worst thing to happen to the game since the streak cat. But, hey, if you enjoy playing a game where only, like, 6 builds are viable (and they all use JJs and ERPPC) well that's your prerogative. But that game sounds like ****. Something had to be done. Maybe it was the wrong way to go about it but I'll take it for now.

Next we need to find way to make brawling viable again and find some way to convince people that there are other close range weapons than the AC20. I mean for crying out loud the game's balance is all out of whack and you're gonna sit here and complain that there's suddenly a reason to use a mech other than a poptart? Seriously

What?!???!

So, brawling is still not effective even with the absence of JJ snipers? (Face to Palm)

Edited by GrimlockONE, 04 June 2013 - 08:42 PM.

[Steel Claws]

Sorry but this whole nerf was stupid. The people who complained were a minority but a vocal minority.

[Raso]

GrimlockONE, on 04 June 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

What?!???!

So, brawling is still not effective even with the absence of JJ snipers? (Face to Palm)

SRMs still need work. The meta is also changing, so time will tell just how much of a thing it becomes again but SRMs were a brawling staple back in the day and now they are still kinda meh.

[Chou Senwan]

My proposal was to fix the pin-point damage issue, rather than the poptart issue. I mean, 6x PPC stalkers and AC/40 Jaegermechs are still on the battlefield.

The problem, in my view, is that combat in this game is supposed to be an 'engagement,' not a one- or two-hit kill. While I fully commend pilots with good aim and want them to succeed, it is simply too easy to plant 40+ damage in one spot and tear a mech to pieces. Considering how long it takes to get into a game and actually engage the enemy, if the fight ends after 10 seconds, that's just bad game design.

Lasers, flamers, and machine guns deal damage across multiple areas, especially if the target knows to torso twist once hit. Missiles scatter across the target. But PPCs, Gausses, and Autocannons deliver all their damage to one point.

So I say, tone down the jump jet shake. Instead, implement a quarter-second or half-second delay between any two weapons with high pinpoint damage. The fluff can say that Gauss Rifles and PPCs draw power from the engine, and it takes a moment to fire each. So the 6 PPC stalker, or 2 PPC/1 Gauss poptart Cataphract, likely hit several different locations on the target over the course of a half second. Excellent pilots can still hit where they aim, but it requires more attention and will likely lengthen engagements.

As for autocannon 20s . . . personally I'd like to switch them so they work more like big machine guns, so you get that lovely Blaine-in-Predator whir of the mechanism firing hundreds of deadly bullets. That way the damage spreads out over the course of a second or two. If you don't implement that, then AC/20s should also be limited so they can't fire at the same time.

Lighter weapons can work as normal.

[GrimlockONE]

Steel Claws, on 04 June 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

Sorry but this whole nerf was stupid. The people who complained were a minority but a vocal minority.

[Raso]

GrimlockONE, on 04 June 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

Yes, because only having around 6 mechs be viable is so much better than what we have now.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Well, a Harrier is close to 14 tons and aerodynamic. Mechs are heavier and are not aerodynamic, so I don't think its a good comparison.



And the shake we now have didn't bother me in my spider, not sure how it feels in bigger mechs though.
And the shake makes me feel more like I'm piloting a mech than before having it, and there still are plenty of ways to win and lose without having to worry about Hello Kitty, IMHO.

There are other issues to worry about, and I'm glad netcode improved with the patch.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Ok, so the Harrier is notoriously hard to fly, despite being a plane with proper vectored thrust, control surfaces, aerodynamics, etc. A mech is being rocketed into the air suddenly, has no control surfaces, no vectored thrust (in MWO JJs don't allow for anything but a straight up, of course allowing for conservation of momentum), and no way to stabilize the flight behavior.

I don't see any kind of problem with the new JJ mechanics. Even good poptarters will still do just fine, since they will know to fire after letting off the jets (which removes shake). Lo and behold, skill is suddenly part of poptarting. No wonder people are complaining now...

[SirLANsalot]

Raso, on 04 June 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

Yeah..... I'm not really concerned with physics. I'll be flat out honest, I feel that you poptarts are the worst thing to happen to the game since the streak cat

Poptarting, been around since 1999 (MW3)

Its nothing new, it was around for a long time. In CB it happened, but no one whined about it then, but we only had cats and jenners and a raven that had them. It was a non issue all the way until the true JJ master showed up, the highlander, then it somehow, magically.....like overnight, became the new battle-cry for the trolls.

JJ sniping happened in CB, and they were laughed off the field by LRM's and SRM's, and anything with a gauss (the K2 times). Its like one mech changed it, and another one will do it again. Nothings wrong with JJ sniping, its only an "issue" now because we don't have ALL the mechs in the game. So the builds for mechs are very samll and condensed down to just a select few. The Orion will change things, the Victor will change things, and the 8 Clan mechs with launch will change the whole WORLD.

So stop thinking JJ sniping is something new, that it was the worst thing since the streak cat (also another CB thing that was laughed at) when its been a tried and true tactic since 1999 and with 3P in MW4.

[Raso]

SirLANsalot, on 04 June 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

Poptarting, been around since 1999 (MW3)

Its nothing new, it was around for a long time. In CB it happened, but no one whined about it then, but we only had cats and jenners and a raven that had them. It was a non issue all the way until the true JJ master showed up, the highlander, then it somehow, magically.....like overnight, became the new battle-cry for the trolls.

JJ sniping happened in CB, and they were laughed off the field by LRM's and SRM's, and anything with a gauss (the K2 times). Its like one mech changed it, and another one will do it again. Nothings wrong with JJ sniping, its only an "issue" now because we don't have ALL the mechs in the game. So the builds for mechs are very samll and condensed down to just a select few. The Orion will change things, the Victor will change things, and the 8 Clan mechs with launch will change the whole WORLD.

So stop thinking JJ sniping is something new, that it was the worst thing since the streak cat (also another CB thing that was laughed at) when its been a tried and true tactic since 1999 and with 3P in MW4.

I never said it was new. In fact I'll flat out say this. Pop tarting helped to ruin MW4.

Buts, yes, lets go back to every team being stacked with nothing but JJ equipped PPC boats. Yes, that sounds like such a wonderful game to play. Why should any other sort of builds be viable (aside from the odd AC40 jager) if it hampers your ability to play the same mech over and over with minimal contest from other mech types.

[Kiiyor]

The average battlemech has the center of gravity and aerodynamic stability of a brick with farm implements taped to it. A particularly aerodynamically challenged brick. It would not be remotely stable in flight.

Which is all rendered moot by the fact that battletech physics are utterly incomparable to anything remotely rational. The bigger the gun, the less range it has. 100 Tonnes of mass compressed into about 4m² of footprint - yet no sinking at all.

[Loxx]

Poptarting was out of hand, however there are better ways to control it besides making people puke. The could have limited the fuel of the jumpjets dependent on size of the jet to 3 full jumps for assault and heavy mechs, 4 jumps for mediums and 10 jumps for lights. This opens ideas to add jumpjet fuel pods @ 2 tons per. This would have reduced either the heatsink carrying ability or weapon size if you wanted to perform more jumps. OR they could have reduced the fuel recharging to 10% every 20 seconds for assault type 3 jets, 10% every 5 seconds for type 2, and 2 seconds for lights. Either of these would reduce the poptarting but still a viable tactic. Instead they crushed all mechs who use jj's and narrowed tactical ability and making the game more linear. IE dumbing it down which is my largest concern.

[Raso]

Kiiyor, on 04 June 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

The average battlemech has the center of gravity and aerodynamic stability of a brick with farm implements taped to it. A particularly aerodynamically challenged brick. It would not be remotely stable in flight.

Which is all rendered moot by the fact that battletech physics are utterly incomparable to anything remotely rational. The bigger the gun, the less range it has. 100 Tonnes of mass compressed into about 4m² of footprint - yet no sinking at all.

This is why I never got people who want a realistic mech simulator. You want a realistic mech simulator? Play Forza. It's the most realistic mech simulator ever (because there are no mechs in it. Mechs are not real).

I can see arguing varying degrees of believability (like Gurren Lagann vs Votoms) but actually complaining about such trivial nit picks when you can shoot several highly charged particle bolts from a single mech with out having to be plugged into a battery the size of Manhattan seems like cherry picking.

[Raso]

Loxx, on 04 June 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

Poptarting was out of hand, however there are better ways to control it besides making people puke. The could have limited the fuel of the jumpjets dependent on size of the jet to 3 full jumps for assault and heavy mechs, 4 jumps for mediums and 10 jumps for lights. This opens ideas to add jumpjet fuel pods @ 2 tons per. This would have reduced either the heatsink carrying ability or weapon size if you wanted to perform more jumps. OR they could have reduced the fuel recharging to 10% every 20 seconds for assault type 3 jets, 10% every 5 seconds for type 2, and 2 seconds for lights. Either of these would reduce the poptarting but still a viable tactic. Instead they crushed all mechs who use jj's and narrowed tactical ability and making the game more linear. IE dumbing it down which is my largest concern.

That's actually a really cool idea. I like the idea of having to equip fuel pods to boost more than a few times. Give JJs a dedicated hardpoint, like ECM and AMS, then allow fuel tanks to be stored through out the mech to allow your mech to jump more than a few times. And mech the fuel tanks as volatile as ammo (if not more so).

I still think the reticle shake is a good idea, though. And because of motion sickness the screen shake might be a bit much...

[Loxx]

Praetor Shepard, on 04 June 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

Well, a Harrier is close to 14 tons and aerodynamic. Mechs are heavier and are not aerodynamic, so I don't think its a good comparison.



And the shake we now have didn't bother me in my spider, not sure how it feels in bigger mechs though.
And the shake makes me feel more like I'm piloting a mech than before having it, and there still are plenty of ways to win and lose without having to worry about Hello Kitty, IMHO.

There are other issues to worry about, and I'm glad netcode improved with the patch.

Aerodynamic while flying horizontal, not vertical. When flying vertical every angle that makes it aerodynamic on the horizontal plane is working against it in vertical thrust.

[FupDup]

I honest don't give a rat's buttocks about whether or not it conforms to realism, I just want the poptarts to stay dead.

[blinkin]

Steel Claws, on 04 June 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

Sorry but this whole nerf was stupid. The people who complained were a minority but a vocal minority.

the forum poll disagrees: http://mwomercs.com/...jj-screenshake/

the yes votes still out number the no votes by 2 to 1.

damned facts just ruin everything don't they?