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High Pin Point Damage Is The Problem. What's Your Solution?


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#21 EvilCow

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 07:25 AM

Torso weapons should not converge because those don't have actuators, fixed convergence preset in mechlab.

Arm weapons should converge compatibly with available actuators and walking/running/jumping state.

Multiple reticles, one for hardpoint.

Too bad the game is going toward the opposite direction: 3PV, coolant and, next, no heat and unlimited ammo.

Edited by EvilCow, 08 June 2013 - 08:01 AM.


#22 Carrioncrows

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 07:42 AM

As I mentioned over here: http://mwomercs.com/...rior-balancing/

Remove zoom.

#23 Chou Senwan

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 08:06 AM

View PostMechsniper, on 08 June 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

OMG I am being killed by people who hit my mech multiple times


Nope, I'm in a Jenner, getting cored by an enemy who hit me a single time with a 6 PPC blast.

Quote

, devs nerf everything quick!!!! STOP with the QQ!!! PLEASE! Here is a clue. This is MECHWARRIOR!!! Guns are dangerous!!!! They hit where they are aimed and kill and destroy when they do!!! That is the ENTIRE IDEA!!!!!! If you want your magical mech to frolick in the flowers while you play tag(conquest, capwarrior in assault) this was the wrong choice of game for you. If you derp into the open alone and 3 mechs appear and rip you into pieces in 2 seconds, you made a poor life choice.


You're a little high-strung, it seems, but I'll agree with you that three mechs focusing fire on one mech totally should take him out pretty fast.

I just think that a one-on-one engagement out to require more than one mouse-click. Honestly, I'd like even an assault-on-assault fight to take about a minute, with a dozen or more volleys back and forth as you wear each other down, instead of just two or three shots to the center torso.

#24 Alistair Winter

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 08:09 AM

A lot of the solutions offered are unintentionally hurting builds that aren't really a problem at the moment (e.g. Jenners, Hunchbacks, Awesomes), creating mechanics that aren't fun and don't make sense, and/or reducing the amount of variety in the game by making snipers obsolete. I won't go through all the examples, but influencing weapon convergence or boating affects all mechs, including light mechs. And if you nerf the PPC too far, you're shafting one of the most iconic builds in the game, the triple PPC Awesome. The day I'm forced to arm my 8Q with a variety of pulse lasers and flamers is the day I leave this game. Erm, again.

It's almost a good thing that PGI doesn't care about what the fans have to say about the meta at this point, because there are so many ideas out there that are way worse than what we currently have.

Unfortunately, the best way to reward damage over time instead of high burst damage is to change the heat mechanic completely, so that you reward players who are able to stay in a sweet spot below, say, 70% heat. If they exceed that limit, there needs to be a bigger penalty. For example, the heat should have a more exponential growth after a certain point, and there needs to be other factors, such as the old HUD disruption and damaged components. And the AC20 needs to have a really long reload time, so you can't rely on quickly killing enemies and then pulling back. Heat isn't a big issue if you can just kill someone in 3 seconds and then retreat to cool down.
The best way to encourage variation in builds is to make weapons ineffective in certain situations. But before you go all crazy and give ER Lasers a 500 meter minimum range, consider this:
Maps and game modes are critical in determining the value of flexibility.
What do I mean by this? Well, the map and the game mode determines where and how the fight takes place. On a bad map, like Alpine, the fight is always going to happen in one or two different spots, especially in Assault mode. And in Assault, the fight is usually over in about five minutes, which is very little time at all. So it's actually the map and the game mode that rewards certain builds. Would you bring an AC40 Jager if you knew the fight would last at least 20 minutes, on a big map where you would be required to fight over different terrain, both with an without cover? If you don't know how or where the action is going to take place, you'll be more inclined to bring different weapons.

Except, of course, when the ER PPC is so powerful that it beats any other weapon in any other situation, so it's equipped on everything from 25 ton light mechs to 100 ton assault mechs. :P

#25 topgun505

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 08:12 AM

If the entire point of having double armor compared to TT was to prolong the engagements and make the games more fun ... then why don't you see hardly any lights and medium mechs at this point?

Oh. Yeah. Right ... because they get ONE-SHOTTED now with ease by a single unit.

If half the mechs in the game can die on a consistent basis from a single volley despite double armor then I think it's safe to say that things are NOT 'working as intended'.

View PostMechsniper, on 08 June 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

OMG I am being killed by people who hit my mech multiple times, devs nerf everything quick!!!! STOP with the QQ!!!


#26 El Bandito

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 08:18 AM

View Posttopgun505, on 08 June 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

If the entire point of having double armor compared to TT was to prolong the engagements and make the games more fun ... then why don't you see hardly any lights and medium mechs at this point? Oh. Yeah. Right ... because they get ONE-SHOTTED now with ease by a single unit. If half the mechs in the game can die on a consistent basis from a single volley despite double armor then I think it's safe to say that things are NOT 'working as intended'.



I see lights and mediums all the time in my matches now.

#27 FunkyFritter

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 08:33 AM

I'd be interested in seeing what happens if projectile speeds are reduced across the board. That would make sniping more difficult and alpha strikes riskier. It would help out the lighter mechs by making mobility a larger factor in avoiding hits and increase the importance of maneuvering in fights.

#28 Appogee

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 08:37 AM

View PostZaptruder, on 08 June 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

What would you do to solve this problem?

Change convergence.

Torso mounted weapons should have separate reticles showing that they fire pretty much straight ahead, while arm mounted weapons can converge given they have actuators which enable this.

I agree that pinpoint alphaing - particularly from long range - is the problem with the current metagame.

#29 3rdworld

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:09 AM

I don't think the people on this forum will be happy until it is dice warrior online.

The changes required to move from a target 200m to 500m is incredibly small. It would be ridiculous for year 3000 tech to not be able to do this on the fly.

#30 Screech

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:19 AM

View PostAppogee, on 08 June 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

Change convergence.

Torso mounted weapons should have separate reticles showing that they fire pretty much straight ahead, while arm mounted weapons can converge given they have actuators which enable this.

I agree that pinpoint alphaing - particularly from long range - is the problem with the current metagame.


I really wish this idea would get more traction.

#31 Livewyr

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:25 AM

View PostAppogee, on 08 June 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

Change convergence.

Torso mounted weapons should have separate reticles showing that they fire pretty much straight ahead, while arm mounted weapons can converge given they have actuators which enable this.

I agree that pinpoint alphaing - particularly from long range - is the problem with the current metagame.


4PPC Stalkers.
4PPC Atlas RS's

Pinpoint would still be abused, just now on preferred chassis.

#32 Screech

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:28 AM

View PostLivewyr, on 08 June 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:


4PPC Stalkers.
4PPC Atlas RS's

Pinpoint would still be abused, just now on preferred chassis.


Arms are a lot easier to shoot off then torso, and look we are already down to 4ppc instead of 6.

Edited by Screech, 08 June 2013 - 09:28 AM.


#33 Zyllos

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:31 AM

  • All weapons lose individual convergence to the crosshair (basically shoot straight, including arm mounted weapons).
  • Arms will physically point to the center of the arm crosshair (basically weapons shoot in the physical pattern that they are mounted on the arms), thus give their convergence in this pattern.
  • Torso mounted weapons will point directly straight from their respective locations and not converge their aim at all. The torso crosshair is basically just used to tell what perpendicular line the torso is facing, from the center of the torso.
  • All ballistic weapons (and ballistic style weapons, like PPCs) have small Cones of Fire. The Cones of Fire are small, not enough to miss targets except against Small mechs at extreme distances 800m+. The Cones of Fire shrink down to firing directly straight, like other weapons, in a linear function to throttle. Machine Guns will also be effected in the same manner.
  • Missiles will ripple fire their weapons at a rate of 0.1s per salvo. SRMs (and SSRMs) shoot 1 SRM per salvo while LRMs shoot in 5 LRMs per salvo. If you shoot more missiles than is physically seen on the mech, there will be a 0.5s delay between each complete ripple fire.
  • SSRMs and LRMs will home in the same manner. Each missile or salvo (5 LRMs) will home onto a random location on the mech.
  • More restrictive hardpoints will be introduced. A "Large", "SRM", "LRM", and "Multi-Missile" hardpoints will be added. Large hardpoints allow for the largest of the class of weapons to be equipped. PPC/ERPPC, AC/20, LRM/20, SRM/6 is what is considered "Large" weapons. "SRM" and "LRM" is used to separate those mechs that actually distinguish between these weapons (Stalker) while "Multi-Missile" is used for those that do not (Catapult).
  • Some changes to how heat is done (there is a multitude of ways, just take your pick). But most importantly, DHS need to have the same values across both mounts (inside/outside engine).
  • Critical seeking weapons (LBX, Machine Gun, and SRMs) will have greatly increased critical damage due to their natural multi-shot style. LBX pellets will deal 5.0 damage for each critical hit, Machine Gun will deal 1.0 damage per critical hit, and SRMs will deal 5.0 damage per critical hit.
  • The LBX will be modified to shoot a flak canister, which explodes when within 50m of a solid object.
  • Pulse lasers will be modified to be a weapon with a RoF, to allow more control of what heat is expended and be some of the best DPS weapons for energy weapons in exchange for their heat and range.
With all of the above introduced, this should balance out any use of any combination of weapons. If you boat all ballistic style weapons, you have to either be standing still or have a small Cone of Fire introduced into your shots. And if you stand still, you still have to compensate for your shots based on their location, arms will physically point at the arm crosshair, torso weapons will need need some time to aim, alpha striking all those weapons will hit different locations. This is to be balance to those weapons that place all their damage up front on a single location (not all weapons hitting the same location, but a single weapon placing all their damage on the location they hit). The LBX will be the special case ballistic weapon which sacrifices all damage onto a location for spread damage, like Missiles, but gain the ability to shred internal equipment and do it at extended ranges.

Laser weapons will still be the king of accuracy but require continued aiming. They can easily be adjusted to when firing to get their damage to where they need to be duration their duration. Pulse lasers allow for even more flexibility in that you can stop firing them, to not use heat, until you know where they are landing. Pulse lasers are not useful in alpha strikes but they will be amazing DPS weapons for exchanges in extra heat, tonnage, and range.

Missile weapons will be weapons either used for indirect fire or superior range weapons, or used for fast strikes for their tonnage. For single launchers, they require little aiming as they ripple fire their shots in short order (0.5s for the SRM/6). They do spread their damage if your aim is off but SRMs will be good at destroying internal equipment on a mech with an unarmored location. LRMs and SSRMs will still be the kings of getting damage onto the mech with ease but with LRMs spread and SSRMs smaller warheads, dealing less damage than SRMs, they are mainly used either to weaken mechs overall or to get in almost guaranteed strikes against fast targets.

The arm convergence and torso convergence changes is to make arms useful for allowing easy aiming of (but not all damage from arms hitting a single location easy) the weapons mounted here. They will be extremely useful in sniping situations due to pointing directly where you aim. Torso mounted weaponry are for weapons to be protected from incoming fire due to lots of torso armor. They generally suffer from aiming issues due to only firing straight from the torso, thus will most likely be fired independent of arm weapons due to hitting different locations.

The differences in convergence will enforce the idea that shooting at arms of players will hurt their accuracy if you blow off the arms, but arms will be a bit harder to hit due to where they are located, but is dependent on the mech. This also is further enforced with more spreading of damage, in general, so it's not extremely easy to just blow off a side torso and ignore the arms.

Missile changes for rippling their fire is used as a way to balance out large blocks of missiles being fired at the same time. If a mech can mount many Missile weapons, it will take longer to fire all those missiles, thus more aim is needed.

I have other balancing ideas that I would like to do but I think these listed above are some of the worst offenders in this game.

Edited by Zyllos, 08 June 2013 - 09:36 AM.


#34 Skunk Wolf

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:32 AM

Balistic drop.

Torso bob when moving.

Arm swing when moving.

#35 Rahnu

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:34 AM

I agree with the others with regards to the heat capacity decrease/increased heat dissipation. That's essentially the lowest-hanging fruit and would have a major positive impact on the game for years to come.

The second thing I want to see, however, is for PPCs to finally get their heat generation reverted back to where they used to be. They are simply too heat-effective for what they can do right now and dramatically outclass other energy weapons because of it.

But we still have to do something about the AC/40 boats...

#36 Rebas Kradd

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:36 AM

Changing convergence won't happen. Revamping the heat system won't happen. Altering the hardpoint system won't happen. Artificial randomness won't happen. No solution that completely obliterates the tuning work and requires the devs to start balancing the weapons again from scratch, or eliminates snipers, is going to happen. Like it or not, we're down to bandaids now. Fortunately, there are bandaids that make perfect sense and target ONLY the mechs that we're concerned about: heat penalties.

View PostZyllos, on 08 June 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

With all of the above introduced, this should balance out any use of any combination of weapons.

Yeah, and create a new game that needs to be retweaked and rebalanced for another six months.


View PostZyrusticae, on 08 June 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

But we still have to do something about the AC/40 boats...


They've been handled. They require running an XL engine that makes them extremely vulnerable.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 08 June 2013 - 09:38 AM.


#37 Zyllos

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:47 AM

View PostRebas Kradd, on 08 June 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Yeah, and create a new game that needs to be retweaked and rebalanced for another six months.


The only thing most of my changes above does it keeps many weapons from hitting a single location. They don't make weapons better/worst than they are now.

And number balances are currently on going now, so that won't change, even with the implementation.

#38 Rebas Kradd

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:50 AM

View PostZyllos, on 08 June 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:


The only thing most of my changes above does it keeps many weapons from hitting a single location. They don't make weapons better/worst than they are now.

And number balances are currently on going now, so that won't change, even with the implementation.


See, that's where I disagree with most of you convergence/hardpoint folks. I think you are waaaaaaay underestimating the number of big new tuning necessities that would open up with this kind of sweeping change. Right now, the ethos is mostly set and only minor tweaks are being done. Your suggestion would create all kinds of new hidden behaviors and incidental prevalences amongst weapons. It'd be reinventing the wheel and would push launch back into at least the holiday season.

Just introduce heat penalties and let the designed boating vulnerabilities do the rest of the work.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 08 June 2013 - 09:53 AM.


#39 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:58 AM

Here are the biggest idea I remembered on the topic listed, feel free to vote, whatever good it will do...:
http://mwomercs.com/...high-precision/

#40 Rahnu

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:59 AM

View PostRebas Kradd, on 08 June 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

They've been handled. They require running an XL engine that makes them extremely vulnerable.

This isn't going to be the case when we (inevitably) get an assault mech with two ballistics hard points in separate locations.

Also, this is barely even a weakness when you can put out pinpoint 40-damage alphas every 4 seconds without having to worry about heat at all.





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