96 replies to this topic

[Dantiger]

Modules are supposed to be complementary equipments and not main tools. I think that seismc sensor should be a equipment that take crit slots and tonnage and not a mudule. and modules should only buff others mech's functions or equipments (like expanding the effect range of ECM or stuff like that)

Edited by Dantiger, 13 June 2013 - 12:35 AM.

[DocBach]

All 'Mechs are suppose to have seismic sensors in cannon. I don't have the rules available, but I believe the range on them were pretty limited to what we have now. I want to say 90m, but I feel like I might have that number mixed up with magscan sensors.

I also remember in the novels characters "switching" their sensors to seismic mode - maybe a balance for seismic would be while running seismic mode all you can see is seismic hits, not items you would see on standard sensors.

Edited by DocBach, 13 June 2013 - 08:55 AM.

[Dantiger]

DocBach, on 13 June 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

All 'Mechs are suppose to have seismic sensors in cannon. I don't have the rules available, but I believe the range on them were pretty limited to what we have now. I want to say 90m, but I feel like I might have that number mixed up with magscan sensors.

I also remember in the novels characters "switching" their sensors to seismic mode - maybe a balance for seismic would be while running seismic mode all you can see is seismic hits, not items you would see on standard sensors.

actually I remember from the novels that they could detect mechs moving at longer distances, and even estimate the size and number of targets... but with every vehicle, soldier or mech nearby standing still

Edited by Dantiger, 13 June 2013 - 09:11 AM.

[DocBach]

It'd be really cool to see Beagle do something beyond be an ECM Streak tax.

[DocBach]

Thinking back on this subject one hugely large thing about seismic sensors is that the experience to unlock it can be purchased with real money. For most items that give such an edge such as coolant, PGI was careful to add an equivalent item that cost c-bills; however there is no item like that in the game that can provide similar utility to seismic sensors, or the advanced sensors for that matter.

Allowing Beagle to fill the role of poor man's modules would allow players the ability to participate in Information Warfare without the steep GXP requirements.

Edited by DocBach, 24 June 2013 - 08:16 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

Does BAP decrease the time it takes to bring up the enemy paperdoll etc?

If not - it totally should so that if you too BAP and the modules to buff that time you should get a near instantaneous access to enemy damage and weapons.

I love being able to see enemy damage quickly when i enter a target rich environment and i skip around all the mechs to find the weakest one - this would be something I would see as a benefit for a lance leader to find the target for focus fire faster.

With the other abilities it has, this seems fine as it is - seismic is the outlier here not BAP imo ... also ECM is still silly.

Maybe BAP could start to scan ALL mechs in your LoS within a certain range so when you skip targets you get thier details faster and your friends also gain this help from your info sharing system.

BAP would be quite a useful individial AND teamwork tool this way

[Deathlike]

BAP does help speed up the paperdoll/loadout info.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I was wondering, could it be viable to require equipping BAP so that Seismic Sensor data displays in the HUD map?

[DocBach]

Praetor Shepard, on 24 June 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

I was wondering, could it be viable to require equipping BAP so that Seismic Sensor data displays in the HUD map?

One of the further expanded roles of Beagle Active Probe in the advanced rulesets is it can actually drop remote sensor pods like Seismics and keep track of them - it'd be cool to see equipment get upgrades via modules, even things like weapons - modules like PPC inhibitor to remove regular PPC's minimum range, or Autocannon speedloader to increase the rate of fire and whatnot.

[Skyfaller]

DocBach, on 09 June 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

We have recently received seismic sensors, which do in fact provide information, but we still lack that capability in Beagle Active Probe, which is suppose to serve as an active, probing sensor.
*snip*
Suggestion:
*snip*
The difference between seismic and Beagle could be that Beagle can actually allow the sensor targets that the Beagle detects to be targeted. This allows a Beagle Active Probe scout to actually relay hard intel to their team mates.

I like this concept.

Quote

Further, the Beagle Active Probe also has a probing ability in the expanded Double Blind rules of Battletech in which it can view an opposing 'Mechs record sheet and see all of its information. This could be simulated in MWO by allowing a 'Mech equipped with Beagle Active Probe to scan enemy targets within its 150m radius and see a more detailed readout, that could show the location of items, what equipment it has such as an XL engine, heat level, ect. ECM would shroud a 'Mech from Beagle's ability to gain this information.

Now THIS is worthy of expanding into.

Say, have the Beagle provide the mentioned info of XL/STD engine, heat level and enemy weapon locations...but not with 150m range since that is basically useless range. Have that info be provided out to max sensor range with a delay of 1.5 times the player's delay in getting target info. For example, if it takes 4 seconds for the target mech info we have now to pop up then the player receives that same basic data in 4 seconds..and 2 seconds later (lock held for 6 seconds total at this point) the beagle provides the additional info. Could be a use for one of those empty screens in the cockpit. This makes having the target info module equipped work very nicely with BAP and sensor x2.

Quote

The caveat is though Beagle can nullify ECM's denial of missile locks, ECM and its bubble protects their users from being detected by Beagle's increased sensor ability.

Problem is, it does not do that. ECM gets inside 100m of a Beagle mech and the ecm still denies missile locks..but the BAP allows you to target the ECM mech.. but then the ECM prevents you from sharing that info to your friends. So.. its FUBAR eye candy ability really.

Zharot, on 09 June 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

BAP also increases your sensor range, can detect shut-down mechs, and gives you an information readout on enemies faster.

Shut down mechs under 200m only and you still lose the lock while they are shutting down so its really dumb.

[Odnir]

General Taskeen, on 09 June 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

ECM needs the missile anti-lock turned off, with the caveat that it keeps the "longer time to lock" ability as has been the case in pretty much every Mech title. All unnecessary, hard counter, big fish balancing removed. Then ECM and BAP can be the Info Warfare tools they are supposed to be.

I personally would have liked to have seen ECM be something that the player actively uses. 'Fire' it to scramble LRM/SSRM activity or break all targeting locks locks within a radius so that they have to be re-acquired. Fire it while mousing over the battle grid map to create a phantom signal of yourself. And other neat-o things. I'm not saying this to beat a dead horse, just day-dreaming.

[Garth Erlam]

Poor mans Seismic eh... forwarded

[DocBach]

thanks Garth

[Lyoto Machida]

Why not extend the range at which BAP works to make it more useful? I think hex squares were 30m in TT and BAP was good for 4 hexes (or 120m). Make BAP useful up to 240m and have it detect shutdown mechs and receive targeting data info faster only.

If a mech is outside BAP's range right now but within the 1000m sensor range, does it still get the targeting data faster? I'd think that it shouldn't...it should only get that targeting speed bonus if it is within BAP's actual range.

BAP should not be a hard counter to ECM...if they just FIXED ECM TO WHAT IT SHOULD DO ACCORDING TO TT RULES, we wouldnt have this stupid problem.

[DocBach]

The thing about BAP is it is a 360 coverage sort of like ECM, so it would also be poor man's 360 sensors if they included it's additional sensor ability rather than just an off switch for ECM.

However, in Tactical Operations, ECM does have the ability to run in a 3rd mode called Ghost Target mode, which gives a +1 to hit for attacks made against units in the ECM bubble; while not a hard counter to LRM's like we have in MWO, it could be an explanation to why ECM can defeat guided munitions. The rules allow Beagle to counter ghost targets so there is a mode in which Beagle does in fact counter ECM in canon; however, as you pointed out ECM's primary function is to defeat Beagle and other electronics, which could still be possible if Beagle received an expanded role as suggested, with ECM blocking it out.

[Mercules]

I believe the original vision for Modules were to be limited by "class/role". If you went down the Scout role you would pick up enhanced sensors and -scout class skills-. Instead we have generic pilot skills and modules open to anyone. Why bring a "scout" when any mech with Seismic can tell you if the enemy is over the ridge or in that cluster of buildings?

Even with BAP getting an increase some of the existing things (*cough* Seismic *cough*) would need to be toned down or made to gather info in a different way. Otherwise... Seismic takes up no space or weight on my already weight/crit starved mech. I'd equip BAP when scouting but realistically an ERPPC that lets me stay away from the enemy and Seismic to help with that are more important than even an enhanced BAP would be. Getting close in a light is really rough and hard at this point. The best way to Scout is in an "overwatch" mode where you are well out and away from the regular troops, sniping from time to time to distract the enemy or hopefully split them up. With the offset angle you can often target units that are not targetable by your team and give them some forewarning. Then again if both sides are on either side of a ridge Seismic does this for you almost as well.

I'd love to see some actual information warfare in MWO.

[DocBach]

the proposition to make Beagle Active Probe different than Seismic is two things:

First, the range is greatly reduced, but Beagle Active Probe would allow the user to not only track targets beyond line of sight, but actually target them and relay information to the rest of the team;

Have a mode in which a complete readout of a 'Mech is displayed, to include things like armor points, item location, to reveal weaknesses like XL engines, ammunition stored in lightly armored legs, ect. to allow a scout to gain pertinent information on the enemy.

both of these would give a player and their team much more information warfare ability.

[Tankopotomus]

Asmudius Heng, on 24 June 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

Does BAP decrease the time it takes to bring up the enemy paperdoll etc?

If not - it totally should so that if you too BAP and the modules to buff that time you should get a near instantaneous access to enemy damage and weapons.

I love being able to see enemy damage quickly when i enter a target rich environment and i skip around all the mechs to find the weakest one - this would be something I would see as a benefit for a lance leader to find the target for focus fire faster.

With the other abilities it has, this seems fine as it is - seismic is the outlier here not BAP imo ... also ECM is still silly.

Maybe BAP could start to scan ALL mechs in your LoS within a certain range so when you skip targets you get thier details faster and your friends also gain this help from your info sharing system.

BAP would be quite a useful individial AND teamwork tool this way

This.

I just started playing as a light/scout/spotter mech and I've been somewhat let down by the fact that I'm not really able to contribute much to my team (or maybe I'm just playing wrong).

Maybe having the BAP color-code all of the recognized targets within BAP range on your HUD map by damage. What I mean is this:
Since you know that anything that isn't blue is an enemy, you can have enemy indicators in varying colors, such as yellow for not/slightly damaged, orange for moderate damage, and red for severe.

So say you've got your map up and you've got 4 enemy mech indicators: two yellow, 1 orange and 1 red.
It won't be enough to just say "HEY FOCUS FIRE ON G4" because chances are there will be more than one target in any particular sector. As such, as the Information Warfare guy, you'll have to cycle through your active targets to accurately pinpoint the most damaged mech in question (by looking at percentages/seeing which mech is looking pretty beat up).

So boom, you've figured out the chassis/exact position of the most damaged Mech. While that's all good for you, the information does no one any good unless you share it, so you still have to communicate your info to your team. I don't think having ALL of the info that you have automatically accessible to other team members is fair, and you should be tasked as a electronics warfare guy to sift through all the info you're offered and relay the relevant stuff to your lancemates.

So, you get the info, and THEN you can go ahead and say "Catapult in G6 is down to 63%" or something. This would let your heavier mechs know that their is a target worth focus-firing on without having them disengage from a current target to cycle through other enemies.

I've got some other stuff I wanted to cover, but sadly the workplace calls...

[DocBach]

maybe Beagle could give you a readout sort of like how you get for friendly members which shows the grid location of every enemy 'Mech it picks up like;

"Jenner D2
Spider D2
JagerMech C3"

[Skyfaller]

DocBach, on 13 June 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

All 'Mechs are suppose to have seismic sensors in cannon. I don't have the rules available, but I believe the range on them were pretty limited to what we have now. I want to say 90m, but I feel like I might have that number mixed up with magscan sensors.

Seismic should be a vision mode.

An overlay.. normal vision and if seismic detects something (100m basic range) it will display a ghost thru-wall generic mech shape. Modules should only extend the range of the module and improve the ID of targets detected.