23 replies to this topic

[mania3c]

Hopefully we will see CW in couple of months and we already have some hints about dropship mode in UI 2.0 thread.

If anyone is not aware of this mode, dropship mode is basically limited respawn system. Player will be able to take up to 4 mechs into match and when one mech will be destroyed, player can jump and deploy another one. When all 4 mechs will be destroyed, it's game over for that player.

So..it sounds simple.. it could work with conquest and assault mode and it's pretty straightforward. But I believe there are few things, which devs have to be aware of ..(I am sure they are, but I am not sure how or if they want deal with these issues)..

First simple issue is, which mode (conquest and assault) is really good for dropship mode. If goal of dropship is bring long lasting games to player, where tactics actually matter, I think assault mode should be removed from the list of possible modes for dropship. Reason is pretty simple. If victories really matter in CW, best way to win this game fast..is take enemy base. I am sure players don't like this aspect of the assault but we all know, that when victory matter cheesy tactics will dominate matches..

Second issue is balance of weapons.. in long lasting games, weapons without ammunition are in huge advantage. When player have only 4 mechs, he really don't want throw his mech away, just because he is out of ammo. If there wont be any re-arm mechanics, dropship mode will be dominated by energy weapons.. So how handle this? I am not sure..but If I believe correctly, MW3 had re-arm and repair mechanics in the game..basically you will enter into hangar and after several seconds you are good to go with full ammo ... Could it be used here? that some bases will have these re-arm stations? maybe even repair stations? I think it would bring another dynamics into the game..

I have to say.. having "arathi basin" game in MWO seems so much fun..but it could be easily fail game mode, when many aspects of new environment wont be handled correctly. So what are your ideas? How should dropship mode works in your eyes?

[Zyllos]

I might also add that I think there will be a tonnage limit to the 4 mechs you have chosen. This will bring the tonnage balance to the game and not force players to play mechs they do not want, but will limit the number of respawns the player has by tonnage. More tonnage in larger mechs will mean less respawns.

200t is my initial thinking as it allows for 2 Atlai, 4 50t Mediums, and ~3 for 3 Heavies. Lights will not utilize the full tonnage but I think that is balanced due to the fact that most Lights and Mediums are close to the same in overall power.

But you do bring up two VERY good points for a respawn mechanic, ammo dependencies and effects of a gimped mech.

Ammo will be severely effected by the now possible number of mechs to be fielded. While, the ammo itself I still think is fine, it's the situation of running out of ammo and having respawns left. Normally, you could take care of this with a R&R total. Sure, you ran out of ammo, but you won without losing your other mechs.

But without R&R (and no future for it to come back), how do you deal with this situation? Ammo bays might be a good solution to have. Maybe a single or two bases has ammo bays in which you can shutdown and regain ammo in your mech, as long as ammo bins have not been destroyed (or sections destroyed which contained ammo bins). Seems like a valid solution.

But what do you do about situations that your mech is completely gimped? No weapons or ammo? Maybe a missing leg? The only thing I can think of is just attack the closest mech or capture point because you will not be able to provide much to the team with little/no weapons or missing legs. So, maybe this won't be an issue, if you think if your mech is gimped, it's time for suicide runs?

Edited by Zyllos, 09 June 2013 - 06:05 PM.

[Fabe]

Maybe the problem of a gimped mech could be solved by having a withdrawal area that you could use to leave the battle and return in one of your unused mechs? For example a small area in the out of balance zone along your side of the map could be a withdraw route. If you leave that way then you are considered to have temporally left the battle to change mechs.

Edited by Fabe, 09 June 2013 - 06:33 PM.

[mania3c]

I think player should be able to change mech even when his current mech is not destroyed ... but if anytime and anywhere..or only on special locations .. I am not sure..

Gimped mechs could be easily great opportunity for some tactics and strategy..but also many players would see that as griefin. Just imagine player could only leave his current mech in bases.. so you can leg atlas, destroy some of his weapon systems and leave him alone far away from any friendly base. this player is gimped as hell and also he just can't deploy his another fully working assault ..while this open many great strategies.. it could be also frustrating for that player.

re-arm and repair.. well..again.. I think it was MW3 which had this rearm and repair mechanics in the campaign ..it worked pretty well, because it would fix your already destroyed parts..so if you lost your arm and some weapon systems, you couldn't use it at all in that mission..and I think something like this would work even in MWO.. some bases should have these re-arm and repair bays, which could rearm your ammo (as long as your ammo containers are not destroyed) and also partially repair some of your damaged parts.. not bring them back to 100% but just.. put some patches on uncovered internals and stop some oil leaks .. while I think this possibility could drag these matches for pretty long games, I always enjoyed games which could last even 30-40 minutes...

[Fabe]

I would say "No" to being able to change your mech when ever you wanted. it would just get ridiculous as players constantly switch mechs to suit to situation at any given second . Piloting a medium and suddenly find your self facing a assault,no problem,just press the switch mech button and 'poof' you're in a assault now too. No,either you can only change mech after lossing your current one or have designated zones where you can switch.

Edited by Fabe, 09 June 2013 - 08:59 PM.

[mania3c]

Fabe, on 09 June 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

I would say "No" to being able to change your mech when ever you wanted. it would just get ridiculous as players constantly switch mechs to suit to situation at any given second . Piloting a medium and suddenly find your self facing a assault,no problem,just press the switch mech button and 'poof' you're in a assault now too. No,either you can only change mech after lossing your current one or have designated zones where you can switch.

I meant that player could leave his mech anytime he wants (but not able to use it anymore in that match) but new mech would be deployed at base of course

Also..would be interesting if player can deploy mech only when his team own any base.. without base..no deploy..

Of course.. switching mech anytime and anywhere is stupid..and hopefully PGI knows it

[LoboSG]

So like... after you 'died' in the first mech, what is the respawn timing like? (assuming a heli goes to your wreck mech to pick up you and bring you back to base).

[mania3c]

I think for sake of gameplay..respawn will be pretty much instant.. maybe few seconds for some animation or something..but I don't think you will have to wait several seconds or minutes to get back to base

[Fabe]

mania3c, on 09 June 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

I meant that player could leave his mech anytime he wants (but not able to use it anymore in that match) but new mech would be deployed at base of course

Also..would be interesting if player can deploy mech only when his team own any base.. without base..no deploy..

Of course.. switching mech anytime and anywhere is stupid..and hopefully PGI knows it

OH OK,Sorry I misunderstood you. In that case I would prefer it if you had to return to some sort of respawn point/base to switch mechs. I would be a good counter balance to being able to hop into a fresh mech before the other one is destroyed . Ohter wise what happens to the mch you just left? Does it self-destruct or just stay there for the enemy to shoot apart? If it self destructs does it count as a death and should it count as a kill for the enemy or a suicide for you?

[Fabe]

mania3c, on 10 June 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

I think for sake of gameplay..respawn will be pretty much instant.. maybe few seconds for some animation or something..but I don't think you will have to wait several seconds or minutes to get back to base

A respawn ticket system might work as well. Each team starts with a small pool of tickets that let them respawn players. These tickets will slowly replenish over time with capturing some objectives speeding up the respawn rate allowing the team to get players back in the game faster. Or maybe even have a limited number of tickets,once those are gone,no more respawns.

Edited by Fabe, 10 June 2013 - 05:48 AM.

[zhajin]

They will need to address a number of issues with respawns. there has to be a way for a player to respawn, to avoid the issue of disabled mechs. however if it is too easy then it can be abused as well.

another issue that comes to mind is spawn camping. depending on respawn timing and possition camping could be a major issue. Imagine respawning only to be obliterated by 3 or 4 assaults before you have a chance to react. Even if you can not camp a spawn point respawns could spread out your team making it easy to pick off one by one.

finally you have issues with questionable tactics. such as enemies suiciding in lights only to respawn in lrm boats or snipers once they know where you are.

Edited by zhajin, 10 June 2013 - 11:37 AM.

[8RoundsRapid]

These are my predictions for 'dropship mutator,' based on what we know of PGI:

1) You will get to bring 4 mechs, and there will be absolutely no limitation on which ones you get to bring. Want 4 assaults? You got it!

2) When you die, you will respawn in the same spawn location you started in, after a 15 second cooldown. Even if there are enemies near the spawn, you will still spawn there as there will only be one spawn point, PGI can't be bothered to make more spawn points or write code that will minimize spawn camping. According to my calculations, adding these features would cost PGI approximately $750k for each map.

3) There will be a bug that stops ~25% of people being able to use more than their first mech. And the bugged players will all end up on the same team.

4) There will be no exp/monetary incentive to win a match any other way than to destroy all the enemy mechs (like now). This will lead to rampant spawn camping. See #2

5) With 12v12, and these tiny maps, dropship mutator is going to be a major disaster.

What it should be is some kind of a cross between War Thunder and Battlefield2/Battlefield2142 (not bf3). Multiple cap points, large maps, maybe some NPC's out there to kill for bonus points (infantry, tanks, aircraft, boats, etc).

[Fabe]

8RoundsRapid, on 10 June 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

These are my predictions for 'dropship mutator,' based on what we know of PGI:

1) You will get to bring 4 mechs, and there will be absolutely no limitation on which ones you get to bring. Want 4 assaults? You got it!

2) When you die, you will respawn in the same spawn location you started in, after a 15 second cooldown. Even if there are enemies near the spawn, you will still spawn there as there will only be one spawn point, PGI can't be bothered to make more spawn points or write code that will minimize spawn camping. According to my calculations, adding these features would cost PGI approximately $750k for each map.

3) There will be a bug that stops ~25% of people being able to use more than their first mech. And the bugged players will all end up on the same team.

4) There will be no exp/monetary incentive to win a match any other way than to destroy all the enemy mechs (like now). This will lead to rampant spawn camping. See #2

5) With 12v12, and these tiny maps, dropship mutator is going to be a major disaster.

What it should be is some kind of a cross between War Thunder and Battlefield2/Battlefield2142 (not bf3). Multiple cap points, large maps, maybe some NPC's out there to kill for bonus points (infantry, tanks, aircraft, boats, etc).

1) If someone has 4 assults in their hanger I say let them use them,it's not like the other team will be facing all four of them at once

2) yeah that is a fear of mine as well,hopefully this will not be the case and something to pervent base/swan capping will be in place.

4) I think that withdropship mutator there might be more incentive to cap in conquest since with respawns there will be more time and opportunity to actually fight over them

5) A max player limit might have to be set on some maps for sure but with large maps planned 12 vs 12 should not be a problem.

Edited by Fabe, 10 June 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[GingerBang]

There needs to be a battle value on your dropship. Like you can only drop X tonnage or something. So you get like 2 fatlas, or 7 spiders. definitely not those exact values, but i think you guys probably get what i mean

[Petroshka]

I predict this will be a common phrase once drop ship mode exists

Hey, bro! You up for some 3rd person view MechSpawnCamper3035? Nah, I'll play Call of Duty instead.

Edited by Petroshka, 11 June 2013 - 02:31 PM.

[Will HellFire]

Eh? Whats that I hear?

Whining, whining, whining.

Is that all you guys know how to do? They still didnt implement anything....and you are pre-whining?

Grow up kids! Time to go to school and face real life, where you can whine all you want and the grown ups will just sigh and dont care!

Edited by Will HellFire, 12 June 2013 - 12:44 AM.

[Fabe]

Will HellFire, on 12 June 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

Eh? Whats that I hear?

Whining, whining, whining.

Is that all you guys know how to do? They still didnt implement anything....and you are pre-whining?

Grow up kids! Time to go to school and face real life, where you can whine all you want and the grown ups will just sigh and dont care!

I hope that wasn't directed at all of us because with the exception of one of two posters this thread had been pretty much whine free. So far its just be a discussion of what we hope to see in dropship/lobby mode when it is released.

Edited by Fabe, 12 June 2013 - 05:52 AM.

[90upznoobz]

If we're talking 8v8 here, and each player is expected 2-4 respawns, we could say that each team is allowed 1200 total team tons, and 180 personal tons. Once either your team runs out of total tons, or you run out of personal tons, you are out of the game once your current mech goes down. These are really just preliminary numbers, but I figure it could work out as something like this.

I remember watching the trailer for MWO. The Atlas gets dropped from the aircraft and flies down using a parachute. I myself am not sure how the respawn system would work but I'm hoping to inspire someone.

[Sephlock]

[ArchSight]

If you guys want an example on how respawn from a drop ship can be handled just look at the game Section 8. It's respawn mechanic was good but sadly everything else was not. I'm not sure they should go with the Section 8 respawn mechanics though respawn killing is still possible from being able to be shot while coming down(Could we shoot back?) and it was easy to split away from your team because you could spawn almost anywhere at any time without waiting to group up with anyone. The only thing that changed a players mind from dropping into a location was AA turrets that could kill them if they chose to spawn within their highlighted range on a map.

I've had a better idea for fixing spawn killing ever sense I've played delta force though.
Its to use the outside map borders as nuetral no fire, no damage or seen zones that requires the player to walk over the border to be able to enter in any fight. (That means you can't be seen while spawning, don't take any damage if hit, and can't do anything to affect a battle while in the spawn zone.)
One opposite border of the map per team and a 1/3 of the adjacent borders connected to the corners of the teams side would make up the spawn behind the border for each team.
Two or three spawn points would be located behind the borders near the corners and middle of a teams spawn zone for faster desicion making on which part of the border that the team will be crossing.

It solves predictability by not being able to be seen and from being able to walk in from different directions. It also solves enemy players getting into the spawn areas to assault respawning players by forbiddening them entry in a area of the map where their objectives would less likly be placed. It helps with team coordination by grouping the team to a side of a map and the spawn zones could also be used as extraction zones for their teams.

Anyway, Drop ship mutator is far off in the future so lets just have fun with what we got right now.