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Forget Heat Penalties: A Comprehensive Balance Solution To Alphas, Convergence, Poptarts, Boats, And Clans


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#561 The Strange

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 06:49 PM

View PostxDeityx, on 10 June 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

This is a very large post and will take a significant time investment to read. The chances that anything will change because of this post are slim. OP why should I read this? If you had some quick and easy way of proving to me that you possess a depth of knowledge about the game greater than the average player I would be interested in reading this. Chances are though that you are an average player and this is just another balance rant like many others before. If only Elo was public. =)


Perhaps if you read it you would see that it is an enlightened approach. That "Elo = right to speak" crap is old bro. Funny thing is, if they did make Elo public we would probably see that all the "make Elo public so I can feel elite" guys have low Elo scores, lol.

As for the post. I actually really like the idea. It's a huge jump up from where the game is at the moment. Perhaps you could get a one on one with Paul and see if he is willing to discuss the merits of this proposal. Probably not, but this would sure help them save their game. Good post Bill.

#562 Teferi

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:56 PM

I like this post and it is makes me think could we see PGI lower the armor and ammo to bring them more inline with canon. That is if they do this and they should.

#563 Ryankamun II

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:37 PM

How is this not implemented already? :P

#564 Cyt

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 05:43 AM

My kids eat up all my free time so I don't play much, but I do follow the discussion on the forums. Most of the time the topics are so absurd or just plain stupid that I rarely make an effort to respond to a thread. This one, however, really deserves a response and a huge like.

Not only is it a viable solution to the weapon balancing problem, but it also, in my opinion, simulates the TT hit randomness in the best possible way. That is to say, without messing with peoples' (precious) aiming skeelz.

I also agree with you in your assessment of the announced heat changes. Messing with such a delicate balance is a road to hell and will probably just result in more balancing problems.

This simple addition to the firing mechanic would definitely fit well into the lore and emulate the importance of targeting computers in the TT. I can already see how the TCed mechs would be better alpha strikers.

I would definitely support and like this addition to the, already, great game.

#565 Endgame124

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:16 AM

While I had a little resistance to this at first, the more I think about it, the more I'm sold on this idea. I just can't break it without also thinking of a simple fix that only effects the targeting computer model. The worst case you would see is people firing weapon groups that are just under the TC limit, which is perfectly fine w/ me as it means I don't die to a single 40-60 damage alpha.

The way you can expand on this is truly awesome as well, as it adds an excellent value you can balance on that isn't directly related to tabletop (I'm one of THOSE guys who is looking for a TT simulator more than a FPS).

A few thoughts in this vein
*You can use quirks on individual mechs to adjust targeting computer values. The Awesome 8Q could decrease the TC cost of PPCs by 33%, so just that mech can volley 3PPCs, at the cost of running an awesome.

*Much like Canon mechs and in TT mechanics, Medium lasers become a very solid choice. You can fire many of them without losing accuracy, or mix Medium Lasers into other firing groups. Encouraging a Stalker to run 4 Medium lasers through good game mechanics is a good thing, IMO.

*Pulse Lasers gain an addition balancing point. The problem with pulses is the shorter range and extra tonnage. In TT this was made up for with the bonus to hit and the extra damage. Since we get to aim in MWO, half of the reason to use pulse lasers is gone. However, by keeping the the TC cost low on pulse lasers, you give them another reason to be taken. Right now, a large laser is pretty much always a better choice than a large pulse... but what if the LPL had the same TC value as the large laser?

*Clan Weapons gain an extra balancing point, in a good way. The first thing that will happen once Clans are out, is people will want to drop Clan weapons on IS mechs. This runs horribly counter to Canon, and is similar to trying to stick your GeForce 780 in a Pentium 100. If you give Clan Mechs base targeting 200, but double the targeting cost of clan weapons, you *** any cross faction sillyness right off the bat.

*The targeting computer has a reason to exist. The Masakari (Warhawk) pays tonnage to have a targeting computer, making it a really scary mech in TT. If you make the targeting computer boost TC by 25% and boost the TC recovery time to .75 seconds, you allow for a higher alpha (a negative), but you still pay tonnage to do it (a positive), and you don't hit the levels we see currently on something like a 4 PPC stalker. The Masakari wouldn't be able to Alpha 3 PPCs at once, but you could fire 2 by 2 every ~.5 seconds. Fearsome firepower to be sure, but not 60 damage pinpoint volleys.

I've thought of all kinds of other benefits to this system, but these are the ones off the top of my head at this moment.

Bravo!

#566 Inkarnus

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:30 AM

View PostShadowVFX, on 10 June 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

I read your entire post and I agree. I'm happy about the heat scale thing PGI has proposed, but I also don't think it will solve future problems like you mentioned. I do hope they read this post and consider some of your suggestions.

Your proposal might not fit in perfectly with Battletech lore, but at this point I don't care. I just want a fun Mechwarrior game that isn't full of cheese.

my point too

#567 pencilboom

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:36 AM

any answer from any of the mod why this idea moved to feature suggestion? Just curious whether this brilliant idea is "getting more attention" or simply being thrown away...

#568 scJazz

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:51 AM

View Postpencilboom, on 12 July 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

any answer from any of the mod why this idea moved to feature suggestion? Just curious whether this brilliant idea is "getting more attention" or simply being thrown away...

Suspiciously enough it was moved to Forum obscurity known as Features out of Game Balance the same day that Paul updated us on his plan to totally eff up the heat scale thing. No Moderation note when it was moved which was unusual to say the least. Hmmmmm it is almost as if some nameless person decided to move it away from public attention.

#569 Enigmos

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:55 AM

Bill you are inspired. My only issue is that our mechs will still be unable to sit in chairs in our own mech-houses.

#570 Belorion

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:37 AM

You have spent a lot of brain power on something I hope never gets implemented in game.

I can see having a slight recoil factor in the game, not unlike the impulse factor caused by getting hit, only for firing. Lasers of course shouldn't be effected, only balistics, ppcs, gauss, and possibly missiles. (although with lock that wouldn't really have an effect.

There certainly needs to be a missile boating solution, but the op's suggestion is not it. I would like to see how the heat changes play out before any other adjustments are considered. Heat has always been the balancing factor in BT. With heat you can effectively bring the dps of boated weapons down bellow the dps of lesser numbers of the same weapons.

That way you are either delivering high dps, or high burst but paying for it at the cost of dps.

#571 Peter2000

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:00 AM

View Postpencilboom, on 12 July 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

any answer from any of the mod why this idea moved to feature suggestion? Just curious whether this brilliant idea is "getting more attention" or simply being thrown away...


They sometimes do this to threads that go against their "vision" that are getting too popular. The key is to send out links to it, so people can actually see it anyway (unless they decide to archive it).

Yes, technically, it is a feature suggestion. However, it is clear that it's extremely relevant to gameplay balance (and that gameplay balance is THE general discussion).

#572 JokerVictor

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:17 AM

Moved to features, eh?

Tinfoil hat time?

#573 Belorion

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:19 AM

It should be moved to Forum Fun imo.

#574 Peter2000

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:01 AM

View PostJokerVictor, on 12 July 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

Moved to features, eh?

Tinfoil hat time?


At least it didn't get moved to patch feedback - so that it would automatically get archived in a few days' time (this has happened before...).

#575 Inhibition

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 11:02 AM

The idea is well thought but I don't like it.
It will nerf many boats that are intended to be boats.

The idea will also favor lights too heavily. It is hardest
to keep a steady firing reticle over a light, which is not
fair to heavier mechs.

The idea will also change gameplay
very significantly. It's not only the developers that have to
put a large amount of effort, but the players that have to adapt harshly.
Many players will be frustrated. I'd rather keep the current meta to be honest
than have some insane change (coming from a non-PPC user)

Edited by Inhibition, 12 July 2013 - 11:02 AM.


#576 DEMAX51

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 11:30 AM

I haven't listened to it yet, but a guildie told me that Garth mentioned this post in the this week's NGNG podcast. Maybe it's getting some attention after all? I certainly hope so, because I really do believe this is a great solution!

#577 Stomp

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 01:22 PM

View PostscJazz, on 12 July 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Suspiciously enough it was moved to Forum obscurity known as Features out of Game Balance the same day that Paul updated us on his plan to totally eff up the heat scale thing. No Moderation note when it was moved which was unusual to say the least. Hmmmmm it is almost as if some nameless person decided to move it away from public attention.


Almost reminds me of when they decentralized the forums into these subforums about the same time the NERF ECM thread broke a hundred pages haha. I'm not saying they're attempting to bury it... but it's a possibility.

#578 CrimsonOdyssey

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 01:58 PM

View PostscJazz, on 10 June 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:


Look seriously, I got a few paragraphs into it before my eyeballs spun around grabbed my Frontal Lobe by the Visual Cortex and insisted I stop. Any chance you can go back and edit this post with a SELECT ALL, UNDERLINE, UNDERLINE which should turn off the crazy?



Umm.... your visual cortex is in your occipital lobe (at the back of the brain), not the frontal lobe... Anatomy: learn you some.

#579 CrimsonOdyssey

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 02:04 PM

View PostInhibition, on 12 July 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

The idea is well thought but I don't like it.
It will nerf many boats that are intended to be boats.

The idea will also favor lights too heavily. It is hardest
to keep a steady firing reticle over a light, which is not
fair to heavier mechs.

The idea will also change gameplay
very significantly. It's not only the developers that have to
put a large amount of effort, but the players that have to adapt harshly.
Many players will be frustrated. I'd rather keep the current meta to be honest
than have some insane change (coming from a non-PPC user)



So what you're saying is that it is fair that a 6 ppc stalker should be able to oneshot any mech center torso up to 45 tons without even over heating? Sure... well at least I know any argument you make from now on is invalid.

If the player can't adapt individually, guess what, that's a bad player. PGI or anyone for that matter shouldn't be catering to the weakest link. If you want to get better at a game you should have to practice and put in some effort, not go on the forums find a obviously broken build and abuse it.

#580 Pht

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 03:36 PM

Some more problems to point out:

This TCL fix doesn't have the 'mechs behaving like they do in the novels (or the rest of the lore).

It is entirely possible to fix the pixel-precise firing with multiple weapons problem while making the 'mechs behave like they do in the rest of the lore.

Oh, yes, and besides that, using the cones of fire to represent misses makes you miss in ways that don't inform you as to why you missed; unless you start warping the cones; and having to do this in a way that makes your misses make intutive sense leads to a horrendously complex chunk of gaming system/concept work that has to be done; which will result in eventually the game behaving in ways that nobody can predict.

Edited by Pht, 12 July 2013 - 03:40 PM.






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