64 replies to this topic

[Gaan Cathal]

OneEyed Jack, on 10 June 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

What game are you playing? A good light pilot is rarely in the firing arc of something large enough to seriously hurt it with an alpha strike long enough to land said strike. If they can't keep out of your arc, they just move is and hump your leg, so close you can't bring your guns to bear, and can't get away because they're both faster and more maneuverable. They can just keep firing banks of Med Lasers into the wall of metal in front of them, but you can't even see them, and couldn't angle your guns enough to shoot them if you could see them.

[EDIT]
While I agree with the OP to some extent, if they choose to implement collision but not Knock-down, they could easily add it at a later time without the uproar that KD would cause among newer players (or the whiney ******* already arguing against it). If they implement KD, I think the OP has a very valid point.

Ok. You're one of those irritating bads that walks over me in his Atlas at the start of the match whenever I need to adjust weapon groups.

Collision damage is still in. If you find you have a light humping your leg, walk into it. It damages it.

[MaddMaxx]

Boris The Spider, on 10 June 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

I would LMFAO if they put in propper collisions that take into account velocity, angle, center of gravity, watching an atlas get bantam kicked down of an alpine mountain by a raven, priceless, roll all they way down getting shot all the way. Now don't go saying the ravens legs would explode or something, becuase if they were that femmer the mech would just drop to peices during normal opperation.

A proper collision system would never allow a Raven to knock down an Atlas. The Raven would take extreme damage to itself while imparting some dents to the Atlas's legs.

I would LMFAO at any Raven pilot stupid enough to even consider that.

[Hotthedd]

MaddMaxx, on 11 June 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

A proper collision system would never allow a Raven to knock down an Atlas. The Raven would take extreme damage to itself while imparting some dents to the Atlas's legs.

I would LMFAO at any Raven pilot stupid enough to even consider that.

Never?

In TT, 20 pts of damage COULD knock over an Atlas. Could a 350 lb. man running at full speed knock down a stationary 1000 pound motorcycle?

I am against knockdowns (with stun locks) as it is, but making certain chassis immune to knockdowns from other chassis would be even worse.

Edited by Hotthedd, 11 June 2013 - 09:44 AM.

[Kunae]

kuangmk11, on 10 June 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

My prediction is that collisions never make it back.

Yep. The game will fold before it gets put back in.

[FupDup]

MaddMaxx, on 11 June 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

A proper collision system would never allow a Raven to knock down an Atlas. The Raven would take extreme damage to itself while imparting some dents to the Atlas's legs.

I would LMFAO at any Raven pilot stupid enough to even consider that.

Kinetic Energy = 1/2(Mass * Velocity²). Many pro-knockdown folks don't seem to realize that speed matters quite a lot when two things hit each other and not just raw mass.

Under a realistic knockdowns system that factors in the laws of physics, If that Raven goes fast enough he would be able to knock down that Atlas and do some serious damage if not kill it (of course, the Raven would be vaporized but that's besides the point). The whole notion of being bigger means being immune to things is just plain wrong in the real world.



Raven
Mass: 35,000 kilograms (35 metric tons)
Velocity: 41.72 meters per second (150.2 kph)
Kinetic energy: 1/2 (35000 * (41.72²) = 30,459,772 joules

Atlas
Mass: 100,000 kilograms (100 metric tons)
Velocity: 17.3 meters per second (assuming 350 engine = 62.4 kph)
Kinetic energy: 1/2 (100000 * (17.3²) = 14,964,500 joules


Yup, that's right. In the real world, getting hit by a Raven at full speed would generate more force (by 2.035 times) than a full-speed Atlas. Of course, the Raven can't absorb impacts as well as an Atlas but you can definitely generate higher force (the beak of the Raven would even let you concentrate the force into a very small area, probably making it possible to impale the Atlas like a sword).



Don't believe me? Here's a little experiment you can try out. Grab a dime or some other small object and throw it as hard as you possibly can at a wall or something you don't mind getting damaged (watch out for ricochet!). Now, grab something much larger such as a calculator or something you don't mind breaking and then very gently drop it in the direction of that barrier used earlier (don't throw). You'll notice more damage dealt by the dime/small object than the bigger object.

Still in doubt? Ever wonder why a Gauss slug can take down an Atlas? It is only a tiny fraction of the Atlas's mass, but it is going at an insanely fast speed to more than compensate.

Edited by FupDup, 11 June 2013 - 10:05 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

MaddMaxx, on 11 June 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Derp

FupDup, on 11 June 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Excellent explanation of why the above is derp.

Also - centre of gravity.

[MaddMaxx]

FupDup, on 11 June 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Kinetic Energy = 1/2(Mass * Velocity²). Many pro-knockdown folks don't seem to realize that speed matters quite a lot when two things hit each other and not just raw mass.

Under a realistic knockdowns system that factors in the laws of physics, If that Raven goes fast enough he would be able to knock down that Atlas and do some serious damage if not kill it (of course, the Raven would be vaporized but that's besides the point). The whole notion of being bigger means being immune to things is just plain wrong in the real world.



Raven
Mass: 35,000 kilograms (35 metric tons)
Velocity: 41.72 meters per second (150.2 kph)
Kinetic energy: 1/2 (35000 * (41.72²) = 30,459,772 joules

Atlas
Mass: 100,000 kilograms (100 metric tons)
Velocity: 17.3 meters per second (assuming 350 engine = 62.4 kph)
Kinetic energy: 1/2 (100000 * (17.3²) = 14,964,500 joules



Yup, that's right. In the real world, getting hit by a Raven at full speed would generate more force (by 2.035 times) than a full-speed Atlas. Of course, the Raven can't absorb impacts as well as an Atlas but you can definitely generate higher force (the beak of the Raven would even let you concentrate the force into a very small area, probably making it possible to impale the Atlas like a sword).



Don't believe me? Here's a little experiment you can try out. Grab a dime or some other small object and throw it as hard as you possibly can at a wall or something you don't mind getting damaged (watch out for ricochet!). Now, grab something much larger such as a calculator or something you don't mind breaking and then very gently drop it in the direction of that barrier used earlier (don't throw). You'll notice more damage dealt by the dime/small object than the bigger object.

Still in doubt? Ever wonder why a Gauss slug can take down an Atlas? It is only a tiny fraction of the Atlas's mass, but it is going at an insanely fast speed to more than compensate.

As always, folks chuck reality into the game when it suits then, then other times say it has no place.

Fine, the Raven, if it could actually hit that Atlas flush at 150kph, it disappears in a puff and the Atlas loses a leg. Fair enough trade I guess.

Either way, it would be utterly idiotic for a Raven pilot to kill themselves by doing so. And what happens if that Atlas was running away from the Raven at 50kph at the time of collision.

Hotthedd, on 11 June 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Never?

In TT, 20 pts of damage COULD knock over an Atlas. Could a 350 lb. man running at full speed knock down a stationary 1000 pound motorcycle?

I am against knockdowns (with stun locks) as it is, but making certain chassis immune to knockdowns from other chassis would be even worse.

Wft, are we playing TT now? Sure it could knock it over but I would guess that the fat man would be way worse for ware than the bike. Not that the correlation has any basis in a video game. We have neither Bikes not 350 lbs fat men.

[FupDup]

MaddMaxx, on 11 June 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

As always, folks chuck reality into the game when it suits then, then other times say it has no place.

You're assuming I want realism in this game. I don't. One of the main defenses of knockdowns people use is that "it's realistic." I'm showing you why knockdowns in BT aren't even remotely realistic. That means we can't use realism as a reason for implementing KD, and that means we have to use gameplay instead. I could find quite a few Youtube videos regarding the gameplay implications of KD...not very pretty stuff. Dragon bowling, moron teammates, Jenner bumpercars, and the like are some of the shenanigans that (at least IMO) would not be very good for gameplay.

MaddMaxx, on 11 June 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Fine, the Raven, if it could actually hit that Atlas flush at 150kph, it disappears in a puff and the Atlas loses a leg. Fair enough trade I guess.

Either way, it would be utterly idiotic for a Raven pilot to kill themselves by doing so. And what happens if that Atlas was running away from the Raven at 50kph at the time of collision.

Damage transfer means that the Atlas would have a pretty damaged side torso if not even a damaged CT. Something about the Raven chassis in particular is the pointed beak design of the CT. Think of it as a walking sword. If a Raven got the elevation it needed to hit the CT, it's impaling time (death for both parties).

Edited by FupDup, 11 June 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[Hotthedd]

MaddMaxx, on 11 June 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

Wft, are we playing TT now? Sure it could knock it over but I would guess that the fat man would be way worse for ware than the bike. Not that the correlation has any basis in a video game. We have neither Bikes not 350 lbs fat men.

No, we are playing a video game BASED on the TT game.

You originally argued that the Raven would be unable to knock down the Atlas, I was refuting your point with an example that could be related to with relative ease.

I would not be surprised to find out MW:O has PLENTY of 350# fat guys playing this game .

[MaddMaxx]

FupDup, on 11 June 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

You're assuming I want realism in this game. I don't. One of the main defenses of knockdowns people use is that "it's realistic." I'm showing you why knockdowns in BT aren't even remotely realistic. That means we can't use realism as a reason for implementing KD, and that means we have to use gameplay instead. I could find quite a few Youtube videos regarding the gameplay implications of KD...not very pretty stuff. Dragon bowling, moron teammates, Jenner bumpercars, and the like are some of the shenanigans that (at least IMO) would not be very good for gameplay.

Damage transfer means that the Atlas would have a pretty damaged side torso if not even a damaged CT. Something about the Raven chassis in particular is the pointed beak design of the CT. Think of it as a walking sword. If a Raven got the elevation it needed to hit the CT, it's impaling time (death for both parties).

No need for videos, I have been there and got Bowled myself. As to the Spearing effect, only the Raven 4X has JJ and you cannot leave the ground without them. So if a Raven Pilot wishes to spear an Atlas with it beak, then they will be driving a 4X.

What is needed is only extreme events cause a knockdown and all other events cause damage, extreme in cases that warrant it, to both parties and have those calculations be based off of a relative simple formula. No need for complex physics models at all.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 11 June 2013 - 10:24 AM.

[FupDup]

MaddMaxx, on 11 June 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

No need for videos, I have been there and got Bowled myself. As to the Spearing effect, only the Raven 4X has JJ and you cannot leave the ground without them. So if a Raven Pilot wishes to spear an Atlas with it beak, then they will be driving a 4X.

What is needed is only extreme events cause a knockdown and all other events cause damage, extreme in cases that warrant it, to both parties and have those calculations be based off of a relative simple formula. No need for complex physics models at all.

If the Raven ran off a hill from above the Atlas it might be able to cause impaling without JJs if the distance is right.


I still think that instead of knockdowns, both mechs should just stop to a halt, take some damage, and have their cockpits shaken up like a can of soda. It's a lot harder to abuse (but not impossible, there may be griefer teammates who do it to you when you're trying to line up a shot) doesn't seem like it would become a mini-meta in and of itself (because it's more survivable, i.e. not a death sentence), and it still prevents people from ghosting through each other. The solution to those rare leghumpers would just be to allow the torso on all mechs to pitch down farther, enabling the humper to get shot in the face.

Edited by FupDup, 11 June 2013 - 10:35 AM.

[The Strange]

Dartangan, on 10 June 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

As a guy who plays everything, but considers Atlas my primary, I can't wait for collision as I'll be able to step on the little buggers and kill them before they get up.

I don't know what light pilots you fight against, but you would never be able to ram me with an Atlas. Way too slow for that man.

[Metallis]

Dartangan, on 10 June 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

I suggest that PGI make this a higher priority component to implement ASAP, as this will cause a shift in gameplay, probably as big a deal as the implementation of ECM for much of the community. This will be a big, big deal for light pilots who came on board after the removal of collision. I anticipate that more than half the light pilots out there will either quit the game or find a bigger mech when collision returns, as they won't be able to stop base caps as they currently do, and in a decent match, one collision will = death. The sooner this gets back in, the less people who filter in as the metagame hits will get turned off, because they won't be used to the easy mode the lack of collision presents. As a guy who plays everything, but considers Atlas my primary, I can't wait for collision as I'll be able to step on the little buggers and kill them before they get up. As fun as it will be to squash those little guys like we used to and drink their tears which will be flowing big time. I bring this up because if this is implemented AFTER launch there will be A LOT more people playing, and that will equate to A LOT MORE PEOPLE ANGRY WITH THE INCREASED DIFFICULTY AND MORE PEOPLE WHINING AND QUITTING. I want this game to succeed, way more than I want to prey on unsuspecting light pilots who don't know how hard it will get for them. Collision needs to be in the game. I firmly believe it makes sense financially for PGI to anticipate the poopstorm collision will bring and the earlier it gets dealt with, the less of a negative impact it will have, and if it is in before launch, the foundation of players who will continue to play will be that much stronger. Hope this helps, and hope we see collision sooner rather than later so that we don't have a big mass exodus that we wouldn't have due to the number of people playing when this happens.

My god man!! Did some light pilot kill your dog or something? So much light hate seeping through this post. WOW!!! I will be looking for your name on the opposition. Maybe I can give you a different impression of us lights.

Just for the record it won't matter collision or not. We lights will still ruin your day. Just sayin.

Edited by Metallis, 11 June 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[Bunko]

Though I think collisions need to be placed back in, is this really as big a deal as weapon balance?

Collision was removed before Open Beta, everyone here that is not a Founder doesn't know what the game was like with it in already, why so much attention to only the new players? The way it was before is the more tonnage knocked down the lesser, speed of impact equated to more damage, this did not matter if it was an enemy or your teammate. So before talking about Lights and such remember that your buddy that sucks piloting is going to knock your mech down as much as the enemy. As for "Bowling Dragons" that was a bug that granted Dragons 100% knockdowns no matter the tonnage of the other mech.

This game is still "Beta" anyone that wants to quit cause MWO decides to change something needs to reevaluate why they are playing a game in Beta.

Edited by Bunko, 11 June 2013 - 11:28 AM.

[Kunae]

Bunko, on 11 June 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

This game is still "Beta" anyone that wants to quit cause MWO decides to change something needs to reevaluate why they are playing a game in Beta.

BS.

This game hasn't been in "beta" since "open beta" started, no matter what yea or they claim.

[Clit Beastwood]

Hotthedd, on 11 June 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Never?

In TT, 20 pts of damage COULD knock over an Atlas. Could a 350 lb. man running at full speed knock down a stationary 1000 pound motorcycle?

I am against knockdowns (with stun locks) as it is, but making certain chassis immune to knockdowns from other chassis would be even worse.

wait - you've seen a drunk fat guy tackle a goldwing too? small world!

[Boris The Spider]

MaddMaxx, on 11 June 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

A proper collision system would never allow a Raven to knock down an Atlas. The Raven would take extreme damage to itself while imparting some dents to the Atlas's legs.

I would LMFAO at any Raven pilot stupid enough to even consider that.

I fail to see how the force excerted on a Ravens legs when it lands on an Atlas are somehow greater than the forces exerted on its legs when it lands on the ground? As I said, if the legs on a Raven are that fragile it would fall to peices during normal opperation... and sorry 35 tonne of mech hitting a 100 tonner anywhere above the waist is going to result in a knockdown, the light mech would be back on its feet quicker, if it even fell over.

Isnt that what the assault pilots keep saying, we should be rewarding skill? But were not talking about skill, not like the precise move it would take to carreen your mech off an elevated position into the upper torso/head area of a tall mech, were talking about Atlas pilots being able to reverse around in circles at 30kmph knocking lights and mediums over like skittles.

[PanzerMagier]

I can't wait for knockdown and tripping to be implemented.
These qq'ng light mech pilots didn't get enough ******** when we stripped them of their lagshields. They should lose the ability to just carelessly plod between a mech's legs and expect that they'll just fly through like their mech is made of kasper or something.
My bathtub awaits to filled the tears of those pilots who always quaffed "u mad bro" in their light mech...

Obligatory ribbing aside.
I'd really like to see it eitherway. Because if knockdown comes, melee combat and DFA won't be far off...

[Ningyo]

Actually three problems with that argument.

When running a mech uses the bending of its legs to cushion itself preventing damage, In a kick you would be locking the leg to impart more damage while taking some in return. (do to proper alignment of structure damage to the person kicking would be only 1/4-1/2 of the person being kicked, and be limited to the leg)

When running a mechs legs are offsetting the force of a 35 ton mech falling maybe 1-5 feet every stride, not the 60-150 KPH of a high speed impact.

A Collision is not a kick it will tend to be hitting the enemy mech with your torso or arms not your legs. (unless you are a lot larger)

And I believe a Raven running at 150 kph into a atlas would have a impact force about the same as exploding 10 pounds of TNT. (this is a lot, but mechs are made to take a lot of damage) So I would suspect most high speed impacts should be limited to between a max of 10-20 damage. (20 being 2 cicadas at 150 kph each going directly toward each other for a combined speed of 300kph : this should hurt)

[Boris The Spider]

Ningyo, on 11 June 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

When running a mech uses the bending of its legs to cushion itself preventing damage, In a kick you would be locking the leg to impart more damage while taking some in return. (do to proper alignment of structure damage to the person kicking would be only 1/4-1/2 of the person being kicked, and be limited to the leg)

The leg, foot and all joints would have to be a lot hardier than people are making out, mechs are designed with urban combat in mind, if they were shearing arms off because they clipped buildings, or loosing toes from kicking street furniture they would be completley unviable.... they drop these things out of space onto people, they kick and punch each other all the time, jump jetting, climbing, high speed turns, they send them under water, into a vaccum, burn them freeze them, and the only thing that seems to damage them to any degree is focused energy or huge caliber rounds. Mechs are tough, even the small ones.

Anyway, there is no reason the pilot could not bend the legs, it wouldnt need the impact, the momentum alone would be enough. A 4X with JJ's should be able to take down Atlas and Highlanders like a velocoraptor. Hit it too low, yeah bad news for the 4X, too high, your going over the top of him, just right, with the feet about shoulder level. Totally skill based, realistic, but we cant have it because many of the same people demanding knockdown, do not want to be knocked down. This is all about making the most common 2 classes of mech and the most accessable to new players require an even higher skill level than they already do whilst rewarding what are already the easiest mechs in the game to play.