1263 replies to this topic

[jollyrancher1]

Here is my proposal and I feel it changes less aspects of the game.

http://mwomercs.com/...-meta-gameplay/

It focuses on putting a .5 second stall before certain weapons can be fired therefore it spreads out the damage of the high pinpoint alpha that is a problem right now without changing heat, hard points, or armor. Please post your thoughts in the thread.

I havent thought much how my proposal would effect clan mechs, but I believe it would be minimal.

[Koniving]

Quote

I agree that the heat system isnt right where it is now, but changing the heat threshold does little to stop the problem of high pinpoint alphas. Its the fact that it can be fired all at once that makes a 6 ppc stalker so mean. And if the developers were looking into having a number based weapon boating heat penalty, I doubt it would be a stretch to do a limit on shots at once because of newb friendliness or too many charts.

Koniving, on 24 June 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

True. But how would standardizing a heat threshold not change it? If you could only fire 4 ER PPCs once without shutting down and had to wait until less than 10% before you can safely fire again, and 6 ER PPCs would instantly shut you down in much the same way 4 does it to this guy here...


Note: At 3:12 he fires at 74% and survives, just to move again within a couple of seconds. With the threshold reduction if he fired at even 30% he'd self-destruct instantly with my solution.

How would that not stave off high alphas? The only thing it wouldn't affect is gauss rifles admittedly, but those 3D cataphracts with the twin ER PPC and gauss? They wouldn't be able to cool fast enough to fire anywhere near as often. I once watched someone in a cataphract 3D (as the last player against readily damaged enemies) take out 6 players back to back within less than 30 seconds and only reach 90% heat. Here, he'd be shut down by the 3rd shot and stuck there more than long enough to be taken out.

Setting a heat threshold of say 15 "1.4" heatsinks (63 heat) for all mechs regardless of heatsink counts would actually buff standard heatsinks, and only leave them impaired in the sense of cooling rate. ~They~ would be able to fire twice as much as they can now. This would make trial mechs viable.

Furthermore it buffs lights (who could barely manage 12 double heatsinks if even) so that they can fire more before having to hold back. Mediums would be able to brawl without shutting down as often, allowing them to take on their role a bit more properly.

All mechs using alpha strikes of any sort would suffer significantly. Right now in my Cataphract 1x I can do 3 back to back alpha strikes of 5 large lasers. After the threshold I'd only be able to do 2 and would be forced to shut down for 4 seconds before I could even risk powering back up.

Seen the 30 PPC Hunchback? It would self destruct before reaching 12 shots, and yes that's with the slower shots which would stay cooler than those PPCs.

The core issue right now is 22 1.4 heatsinks allows you to have a threshold of 92. Actually since MWO's first 10 built-in heatsinks are true doubles it's around a threshold of 110. Ultimately it's because your threshold rises with every heatsink you add. Therefore assaults are always at the advantage.

So long as you carry 22 "double" heatsinks you can fire almost 4 times more often than someone with just 10 standard. It's made even worse because not only do you have a higher threshold to abuse but you cool faster than they do too.

Solution? Remove the rising heat threshold. Bam.

Right now if you could put 9 MLs into an assault mech with 22 doubles (110 threshold) you can fire them 3 times back to back without a problem. The 4th time you'd be shut down for 3 seconds and able to fire again.

Remove that rising threshold (and set it to 15 doubles for a 63 threshold but keep those 22 double heatsinks, making them true doubles) and 9 MLs in the same assault mech and he'd shut down the second time he fired.

Same 9 ML in a Hunchback, with the standardized 63 threshold and only 12 true double heatsinks. He'd be able to fire them twice. Remain shut down for the same amount of time. The only difference? The assault mech would cool faster because he's got mot heatsinks.

But to have the same alpha strike limit regardless of what mech you're in makes ALL the mechs viable. It makes alpha striking dangerous, too.

A Jenner and your typical Awesome has the same size power plant, a 300 rated engine. The difference between them is one should cool twice as fast due to having twice as many heatsinks. With a limit on threshold they can both alpha strike just as much (they have the same power plant), but the Awesome cools twice as fast to zero so the Awesome would be ready to fire again sooner.

Since MWO has a rising threshold, though, the Awesome can fire twice as many alpha strikes, and be ready to fire again 1.8 (the true doubles plus the 1.4s) times as fast. The end result is the Awesome can fire alphas almost 4 times as often as the Jenner, thereby making lights and mediums useless.

So...

TL;DR

• Rising threshold makes assaults the go-to mech due to the fact that they can abuse alpha strikes almost 4 times as often as lights and mediums, twice as often as most heavies.
  
• Rising threshold at 22 double heatsinks allows for 110 maximum heat for shutting down. Currently 220 heat is required to do significant damage to yourself. 165 is required to start doing CT damage in Paul's solution.
  
• Assuming that the 10 true double heatsinks built into the engine raise the threshold only by 1.4, then the threshold is 92, in which case it takes 184 to do significant damage to yourself. That means you must generate a minimum of 138 to do CT damage according to Paul's solution.
  
• If we predefine the threshold of all heatsinks regardless of number or type to that of 15 "1.4" heatsinks (63 heat), 120 heat would instantly kill you and 90 heat would be Paul's "150%" threshold for receiving rapid CT damage.
  
• The average 6 ER PPC stalker generates 66 heat with MWO's current heat generation. In tabletop (with the 30 heat threshold) the 6 ER PPC stalker generates 90 heat.
  
• The most any 2 ER PPC + gauss build could fire in rapid succession is 4 times and be shut down for up to x seconds.

If we take the same idea of setting a threshold limit but instead of 63, set it to tabletop's 30:

• 6 ER PPCs would instantly kill yourself.
  
• 4 ER PPCs would shut you down for nearly 8 seconds and even firing a small laser at the same time would cause you to receive instant damage to your CT.
  
• 6 standard PPCs would cause you instant damage to the CT but you could survive firing them all. You wouldn't ever be able to fire them all again.
  
• 4 LL would just barely keep you at 93% alpha striking once.
  
• 6 ML would bring you to 80%. 9 ML would overheat you and keep you still for a bit.
  
• A twin ER PPC + Gauss build could only safely fire once. Even after waiting 4 seconds to fire again he'd shut down.
  
• A twin PPC + Gauss build would only be able to fire, wait the minimum 4 seconds and fire again. A third time would keep him shut down for at least 6 seconds minimum, with another 6 before he can fire again (only to immediately shut back down).
  
• All of the above would be true whether you're in a light, a medium, a heavy or an assault. It would be true if you're using standard or double heatsinks. It would be true even if you're in a trial mech. The only change is wait times to cool off based on the number and type of heat sinks.
  
• This makes ~all~ mechs fair and brings back heat management as a real mechanic.

Twin PPC + gauss is likely to get swapped for twin Gauss + a PPC after this change.
Further ideas of mine included dispersing PPC damage into a spread-out effect similar to missile splash but dividing from a pool of 10 damage. (Simplified: Your hit splashes over CT and RT; divide the 10 damage into 2 sections. 5 damage CT, 5 damage RT. Although it's preferred to do at least 60% to where you hit, and 40% divided into other sections so say I hit your center torso and it splashes left and right. We'd do 6 damage CT, and 2 damage LT, 2 damage RT.)

Why disperse PPC damage? Have a look at my Pretty Baby after I'm hit.

We already see a dispersion / splash-like visual effect and we need to reduce pin-point damage. Why not disperse it?

Simple way to solve ballistic problems is already in the works.

Weapon variants that are upcoming (mentioned several times in ATDs although no specifics have been given) are hopefully going include predefined lore variants such as:

• the Chemjet Gun AC/20 which at best guess might do a 4-round burst AC/20 pumps out 4 shots of 5 damage each to total 20),
  
• the Super Crusher Heavy AutoCannon AC/20 (rapidly fires a burst of 10 shots either at 1 shot per 0.1 seconds or 1 shot per 0.2 seconds, each doing 2 damage to total 20 damage).
  
• With these versions the AC/20 as we know it will likely get removed or otherwise modified to encourage the use of the previously mentioned AC/20s.

My way to fix the UAC/5 based on the description of the UAC on Sarna is likely to have its single shots divided into 2, each doing 2.5 damage, with the "double tap" firing another burst of 2 shots at the risk of jamming. Possibility of the jam rate being reduced. Not sure how variants would work, as these would rely on 'half' versions of the regular AC/5 and however their variants work.

The ideas overall are found in the second link of my signature.

Edited by Koniving, 24 June 2013 - 04:48 AM.

[Milt]

ppl keep comparing TT to MWO and make the mistake of comparing dam and heat instead of comparing dps and hps. we have 2x the armor in mwo than we had in TT but we have quite a bit higher damage ppc(2.5x), ac/20(2.5x), ml(3x), ac/5(almost 6x), ac/2(20x), srm6(<2x), and lrm20(2.25x). heat for the same wpns ppc(2.5x), ac/20(2.5xish), ml(3.33x), ac/5(6.7x), ac/2(20x), srm6(.625x), and lrm20(2x). in TT you had a constant cd of 10 on all wpns with random hit location. now in mwo they've introduced variable cd's to wpns that have greatly affected balance along with pinpoint convergence and the removal of pilot skill checks and high heat penalties. imo armor needs to be increased to offset the higher dps and convergence. with a less forgiving heat scale than the practically non existent one we have now. granted we may start seeing matches with scores of 1-0 in 15min so they would have to tweak the payout of matches to keep the economy stable. but would that be such a bad thing?

[Koniving]

Milt, on 24 June 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

imo armor needs to be increased to offset the higher dps and convergence. with a less forgiving heat scale than the practically non existent one we have now. granted we may start seeing matches with scores of 1-0 in 15min so they would have to tweak the payout of matches to keep the economy stable. but would that be such a bad thing?

(Somehow didn't see the agreement that the heat scale needs to be reduced even though I quoted it. lol! Like given for that.)

We already have double armor you said it yourself. But damage is too high. Why? Because we not only have the DPS, burst damage, concentrated damage, etc. but almost 4 times the maximum heat threshold as table top. I've addressed the issues you mentioned.

• Concentrated damage is handled through more lore-friendly autocannons that fire bursts to total their damage.
  
• Concentrated PPCs is handled through a dispersion effect where the 10 damage is spread out at the area of impact, sometimes doing 10 damage to the component hit, sometimes only doing 6 to one and maybe up to 4 to another.
  
• High alpha frequency is handled by fixing the heat threshold, reducing it to either double TT or back to TT values (ever used a trial mech? One with ten heatsinks has a heat threshold of 30.)

16 standard heatsinks in MWO with a threshold of 48.

15 double heatsinks with a threshold of 63 (where I'm aiming to have it set for all mechs regardless of heatsink count, so that we only accelerate how fast we cool not how much heat we can store). In these 3 videos this is how it handles in Frozen City, Caustic and Alpine

15 DHS (63 Threshold) Frozen

15 DHS (63 Threshold) Caustic

15 DHS (63 Threshold) Alpine

If it heats up pretty good with just those weapons, do you think any of those high alpha builds would ever work again?

Edited by Koniving, 24 June 2013 - 05:09 AM.

[Milt]

tbh i dont think i would have posted that if i would have seen your post immediately preceding mine. i still believe in a slower game but im totally on board with your heat proposal. i just dont believe we need a 8-? games for this to be a fun game. hell a good 1-0 game where more strategy and movement were used would be just as satisfying to me

Edited by Milt, 24 June 2013 - 05:08 AM.

[Milt]

koniving's suggestion on heat would also cure the poptart meta enough to remove the jj shake bs that is physically affecting ppl also. considering jj produce a min 3 heat regardless of how long you use them with more heat per length of time used. this could be adjusted up or down either way for balance instead of making them physically uncomfortable to use. jj are not fun atm. this is a game it should be fun.

[Koniving]

I kinda like the shake but it is unnatural (the mech shakes but the environment does not, it's like being in a space sim where the ship is shaking all over the place but you're still flying perfectly straight and the thing far across the screen never moves.)

I agree it shouldn't be as strong as it is, either.

(it's like if you zoom in twice and walk, you can't even tell you're in a mech because there's no bounce).

----------------

An older idea from when I first had the threshold idea.

• Assuming we establish a predefined, non-rising non-lowering threshold for heat...
  
• Let's say we cut DHS back to 30 (tabletop) safe threshold, but put SHS up to 60 safe threshold.
  
• We re-establish DHS as 2x cooling instead of 1.4 x cooling.
  
• Technically DHS would then cool 4x faster (2x + 1/2 total possible = 4 times) than SHS.
  
• But then SHS would allow you to do high alpha builds that you could not do with DHS (since with my idea The heat threshold is preset, doesn't matter if you have 10 or 40 heatsinks) as you can do up to twice as many alpha strikes.
  
• Example: 6 ER PPCs at 11 heat fired all at once would be 66 heat = more than 200% of your DHS threshold = you explode with DHS. But that same 66 heat with single heatsinks = 110% heat = you shutdown and wait a long, long, long while before you can fire another alpha strike again. Time to fish out the Jeopardy theme.
  
• SHS would be useful because if you wanted to use those high heat, high alpha builds or the twin PPC + gauss builds you have to have single heatsinks to be able to fire them rapidly. But then you'd have to wait essentially 4x longer to cool off completely.

And with that, we found a real reason to use single heatsinks. We also found a way that keeps the people that want to use 6 ER PPCs from instantly dying when they fire that first shot if we go with a 30 heat threshold. They just have to use single heatsinks for a double threshold (which then explains away the unused weight of the single heatsink).

Edited by Koniving, 24 June 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[I3lackI2ogue]

heat penalties should only apply to weapons that are larger than 2 crit slots otherwise you are needlessly neutering weapons that arent posing problems.

[Koniving]

Tolkien, on 23 June 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

Before I can take the time to take the rest of what you said seriously, you'll have to revise this. I've played a fair bit of megamek and tabletop, and you're completely overlooking that the mech with more heatsinks can fire more weapons in a single turn before it suffers *any* heat penalties. If it does get up its heat scale it also dissipates those penalties faster, ergo it has both higher dissipation rate and behaves as though it has a higher heat capacity.

We can have a lively discussion on whether this game should emulate that or not, with both of us probably leaning towards not, but you need to at least acknowledge that's the way it works.

This is because in tabletop, your entire 10 second turn is done instantly and all at once. If you truly expanded the 10 second turn when you fire those weapons they are not fired at the same time but over the span of 10 seconds. Otherwise in tabletop the 6 ER PPC stalker generating 90 heat and instantly sinking 62 would require a full 10 seconds to sink 62 heat. It would explode if it generated all 90 heat at the same time. Therefore it cannot have fired all 6 ER PPCs at the same time.

Even if you cut your (MWO) heat threshold to tabletop's, if you spaced out the same weapons over 10 seconds you can get identical results (or better, as most of MWO's weapons are cooler running). So with 6 ER PPCs and 20 true double heatsinks if you fired 1 ER PPC every 1 and 2/3rd seconds, with the 6th being fired at exactly 10 seconds you would get identical results to tabletop (though with still less total heat even on 30 heat threshold). You might approximate around 24 to 26 heat out of 30, so that's 80 to 86% within 10 seconds.

Give it a try. To test this, take a 6 ER PPC stalker with 10 standard heatsinks (that's a threshold of 30) and fire one shot at a time. Double the amount of time stated (1 ER PPC every 3 1/3 seconds) and slowly pump out 3 different ER PPC single shots over the span of 10 seconds. Bet you wont' overheat unless you rush it and will come out to approximately 90% heat or less.

I'm afraid you need to revise your knowledge of the way it works. I already have. There's a reason that the shots are randomly spread out, table top's random system assumes that you are firing each weapon once and one at a time over the span of 10 seconds at a moving target.

Edited by Koniving, 24 June 2013 - 10:03 AM.

[Milt]

I3lackI2ogue, on 24 June 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

heat penalties should only apply to weapons that are larger than 2 crit slots otherwise you are needlessly neutering weapons that arent posing problems.

that is not quite true, smaller wpns are inherently more efficient and if they are not atm then they need to be. the heat system should be able to be explained and understood in less than 2 minutes of discussion to be simple enough to work well.

[Milt]

another heat mechanic id also like to see revisited is the effect of water on cooling. it was huge in lore and in the TT game. water could make a high heat mech godlike with its ability to aid in the cooling of a mech. currently its practically nonexistent

[SVK Puskin]

Koniving, on 24 June 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

I kinda like the shake but it is unnatural (the mech shakes but the environment does not, it's like being in a space sim where the ship is shaking all over the place but you're still flying perfectly straight and the thing far across the screen never moves.)

I agree it shouldn't be as strong as it is, either.

(it's like if you zoom in twice and walk, you can't even tell you're in a mech because there's no bounce).

----------------

An older idea from when I first had the threshold idea.

• Assuming we establish a predefined, non-rising non-lowering threshold for heat...
  
• Let's say we cut DHS back to 30 (tabletop) safe threshold, but put SHS up to 60 safe threshold.
  
• We re-establish DHS as 2x cooling instead of 1.4 x cooling.
  
• Technically DHS would then cool 4x faster (2x + 1/2 total possible = 4 times) than SHS.
  
• But then SHS would allow you to do high alpha builds that you could not do with DHS (since with my idea The heat threshold is preset, doesn't matter if you have 10 or 40 heatsinks) as you can do up to twice as many alpha strikes.
  
• Example: 6 ER PPCs at 11 heat fired all at once would be 66 heat = more than 200% of your DHS threshold = you explode with DHS. But that same 66 heat with single heatsinks = 110% heat = you shutdown and wait a long, long, long while before you can fire another alpha strike again. Time to fish out the Jeopardy theme.
  
• SHS would be useful because if you wanted to use those high heat, high alpha builds or the twin PPC + gauss builds you have to have single heatsinks to be able to fire them rapidly. But then you'd have to wait essentially 4x longer to cool off completely.

And with that, we found a real reason to use single heatsinks. We also found a way that keeps the people that want to use 6 ER PPCs from instantly dying when they fire that first shot if we go with a 30 heat threshold. They just have to use single heatsinks for a double threshold (which then explains away the unused weight of the single heatsink).

The shake is the game for reason...Unnatural? I do not understand your explanation. Environment shakes because of earthquake not becuase you are using Jumpjets!

[Tolkien]

Milt, on 24 June 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

another heat mechanic id also like to see revisited is the effect of water on cooling. it was huge in lore and in the TT game. water could make a high heat mech godlike with its ability to aid in the cooling of a mech. currently its practically nonexistent

Hi Milt,

I think they have actually put this in the game! I recall seeing jets of steam shooting off of mechs as they ran through water on forest colony. The problem is that water is only deep enough to cover the foot locations of a mech so only single heatsinks can be used to get this effect (doubles are too big to fit there).

And unfortunately doubles are uniformly superior to singles in this game so noone uses singles unless it's a trial mech.

[MustrumRidcully]

Milt, on 24 June 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

another heat mechanic id also like to see revisited is the effect of water on cooling. it was huge in lore and in the TT game. water could make a high heat mech godlike with its ability to aid in the cooling of a mech. currently its practically nonexistent

IT is in game. There isn't anything to revise.

Get your single heat sink mech into water and enjoy your 4 extra points of heat dissipation (assuming you 4 in your legs).
And still get blasted by the guy standing next to you with Double Heat Sinks, because he had a 10 point headstart before you entered the water.

Quote

This is because in tabletop, your entire 10 second turn is done instantly and all at once. If you truly expanded the 10 second turn when you fire those weapons they are not fired at the same time but over the span of 10 seconds. Otherwise in tabletop the 6 ER PPC stalker generating 90 heat and instantly sinking 62 would require a full 10 seconds to sink 62 heat. It would explode if it generated all 90 heat at the same time. Therefore it cannot have fired all 6 ER PPCs at the same time.

Ultimately, this is a part where real time and turn based are difficult to translate. PGI's choice exacerbate the alpha boating problem, because heat is not an effective limit anymore for alpha strikes. Mind you - heat alone is not sufficient to deal with all types of boating. AC/40s still will do well due to their low base heat, and Gauss Rifles will never pose heat problems.

[Koniving]

ENS Puskin, on 24 June 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

The shake is the game for reason...Unnatural? I do not understand your explanation. Environment shakes because of earthquake not becuase you are using Jumpjets!

I realize that, but if you are shaking then your perception of the ground should move. Stand up and shake your head while looking straight at something stationary. Does the ground move? All around you, your perception of the world moves.

Now shake something in front of you while looking straight ahead at your screen. Did the ground move? Nope. And thus you do not feel you have moved even as the cockpit shakes.

As I said in that post, go into your mech and walk. Just walk. Notice your mech is bouncing? This is unnatural movement because the cockpit is moving but "You" are not moving with it. Zoom in twice. Continue walking. Notice nothing is bouncing. Nothing at all. You are not rising and falling with each step. You are not shifting left and right with each step the mech is making. This is unnatural movement.

Even in a car if you go down a bumpy road in a straight line can you stay perfectly still?

MustrumRidcully, on 24 June 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Ultimately, this is a part where real time and turn based are difficult to translate. PGI's choice exacerbate the alpha boating problem, because heat is not an effective limit anymore for alpha strikes. Mind you - heat alone is not sufficient to deal with all types of boating. AC/40s still will do well due to their low base heat, and Gauss Rifles will never pose heat problems.

Oh I know. Slip back some beyond the post to Tolkien. I address those in this post by just mentioning them.
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2480901

The one above it with the videos has the soft details. And in a few other posts on previous pages starting on the second link in my description are the hard details. Ultimately the "Variants" we're supposed to be seeing on autocannons, lasers, etc. would possibly remove the concentrated issue of all weapons except Gauss Rifles which is the idea. Gauss rifles will remain exactly as they are because they should be a sniper's weapon.

PPCs were also addressed in those posts.

Edited by Koniving, 24 June 2013 - 10:22 AM.

[Phobic Wraith]

Koniving, on 22 June 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Here's to hoping you'll give my ideas another try with a more objective mindset. Remember, a standard heat threshold for all mechs at the range of 15 double "1.4" heatsinks, regardless of what kind of heatsinks and how many the mechs have. Remove the threshold rise per heatsink b.s. and then boost double heatsinks to 2x. Give it a try. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised.

If you've read this, thank you. I appreciate your consideration and while these two fixes may resolve many issues, I am aware there are some slight kinks or flaws to work out as well but if you can craft something as immensely complex, time-consuming and work-heavy as the weapon threshold idea then you can easily come up with adequate solutions for the far fewer issues of my incredibly simple fixes to MWO's core mechanical flaws.

Yeah, I like your idea, and I'm glad you pointed it out. Honestly, I have no preference what PGI uses to fix the pinpoint alpha problem, as long as it does get fixed. I know most people just want to play the game and not have to run cheese. I know I don't. Good reasoning on your part.

[Milt]

yes, i know about the 4singles but as i said, practically nonexistent. now after reading the TT rules(which i havent done in 20yrs) i find that they only allowed 6 pts of heat dissipation. for some reason i remembered at being more. damn it sux getting old.

[SVK Puskin]

Koniving, on 24 June 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

As I said in that post, go into your mech and walk. Just walk. Notice your mech is bouncing? This is unnatural movement because the cockpit is moving but "You" are not moving with it. Zoom in twice. Continue walking. Notice nothing is bouncing. Nothing at all. You are not rising and falling with each step. You are not shifting left and right with each step the mech is making. This is unnatural movement.

Even in a car if you go down a bumpy road in a straight line can you stay perfectly still?

Man, man, man! Mechs has Gyro cars doesn't...Do you know for what reason they have it?

[SaJeel]

I'm liking the ssrm idea. loving the MG change, haven't gotten around to using flamers, but ill try out some builds and respond with what I think.

Pulse lasers need to be adjust so they offer something perceptibly different from regular lasers. I'm glad you guys are taking the steps to adjust them.

The heat penalty system, is fine by me, there might be better ways to do it, but this action is better than none at all. An idea, I saw on reddit was having heat sinks have a chance to break if they sustain a certain amount of shock, so if a mech goes from 0% heat to 80% in under a second it has a high chance of some of its heak sinks basically cracking.

But overall I like the changes keep up the good work!

[Koniving]

ENS Puskin, on 24 June 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Man, man, man! Mechs has Gyro cars doesn't...Do you know for what reason they have it?

Your mech has a Gyro, you as the person do not so you should bob around.

Furthermore the mech's balance relies on you the pilot and a neuro-helmet's interface in order to know when to keep balance and when not to based on the pilot's own sense of balance.

Made a video.


I confess the JJ's get a pass (the ground does shake but the crosshair shake is so extreme that everything else seems stationary).