1263 replies to this topic

[Kunae]

ObsidianSpectre, on 11 June 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

The heat penalty system described is pretty much exactly what I understood it to be when it was first discussed. I still think it's a bad idea. You're heaping complexity on an already complex system, this is a very inelegant solution, and it's going to bring a bunch of problems down the road if it gets implemented. Balance the weapons individually so you don't need the heat penalty system. Any balance problems you see with boating weapons are just the balance problems with the individual weapons, but exaggerated from having a bunch of them. I really don't understand PGI's regular reluctance to address balance problems directly. Why do we keep seeming to go the Rube Goldberg route of game balance?

Expect nothing less, from these folks.

RG's prodigies, every one.

[Bilbo]

Banditman, on 11 June 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

I don't think that your reasoning for the ML limit is a strong one. You are basing a balance point for the entire game around one single variant of one single mech. That doesn't seem like a great idea to me. I am not arguing for an increase or decrease to the ML limit, only saying that I hope more analysis went into that number than simply to say "Well, the 4P has six energy HP's in it's hunch".

I also think you should consider increase the delay from .5 to a full second. Half a second will not really make a difference in the mega alpha builds like the 6 PPC Stalker. People will simply macro it with a G15 or similar keyboard or mouse. Certainly, they can still macro it at 1 second, but it will feel a lot more awkward at that point.

Actually, it takes into account the Jenners and other energy dependent mechs as well, The 4P is easier to use as an example to illustrate that they are meant to fire them all at once.

Buzzkillin, on 11 June 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

The AC40 will probably be next on the list if this system works.

Most AC/40 builds have much more easily exploited weaknesses.

Edited by Bilbo, 11 June 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[marabou]

And what about rockets and ballistics?

[Corvus Antaka]

Zyllos, on 11 June 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

I thought your mech just exploded if it was WAY over 100%? I don't usually run builds that can alpha that much heat over 100% so I don't know.

Nevermind that 100% is an absolute value, there's not actually such a thing as more than 100%.

[DocBach]

marabou, on 11 June 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

And what about rockets and ballistics?

I suppose it depends on what heat threshold value the devs decide to put them at.

[Kaldor]

How would lowering the heat cap nerf all mechs? If you do not raise the heat dissipation, yes, then it would be bad.

As others have posted, 150% is probably a bit high. Have damage kick in at 125, mech blows up at 150?

And when will mediums get some love?

[Kitane]

The damage ticking should start above 100%, continue to increase with rising heat and the mech should instantly kill itself immediately after reaching 150%, even for a split second.

Seriously, if there wouldn't be an immediate threat of damage to the internal systems, WHY would mech shut down when reaching 100% heat level?

Edited by Kitane, 11 June 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

good job! i wonder what penalties for LL, LPL since they can be boated w even more success than ppc, considering their damage buff
and yeah 150% overheat seems too tolerable for me, althou good pilots almost never lets themselves OH unless they in desperate situation

Edited by BigMekkUrDakka, 11 June 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[Acid Phase]

A huge step in the right direction. Although 150% sounds a bit lenient to me. Most tend to alpha 110%. Nevertheless, time to test it.

Edited by Acid Phase, 11 June 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[Kunae]

Still... the small pulse laser change was a good one, although the LPL change should also include a tonnage reduction to 5 tons.

[Valder]

I have a great idea.... since people tend to play heavies and assaults already and there aren't a lot of medium pilots.... lets bring in a ppc sniper boat fix that nerfs two of the most popular medium builds.... this is gonna be AWESOME.

Please leave medium lasers alone D=

Edited by Valder, 11 June 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Kaldor, on 11 June 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

How would lowering the heat cap nerf all mechs? If you do not raise the heat dissipation, yes, then it would be bad.

Yeah, I don't know why "lowering the heat cap" was mentioned as a stand-alone concept, as it's only ever discussed as part of a system that lowers the heatcap while simultaneously raising heat dissipation. It seems like, based on the offering of a reduced heat cap in the absence of presenting the idea of increased chillng-rates, the Dev's aren't too interested in shifting the Heat System to lower cap/higher dissipation.

I honestly think the PPCs should be coupled at 2 instead of 3 because 3PPCs deal the damage of Dual Gauss already, and I love running 3 PPC builds simply for the powerful Alpha they afford... but if they do let me keep my triple PPCs, then at least my armada of Joke Builds will appreciate it.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 11 June 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[DocBach]

Prosperity Park, on 11 June 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Yeah, I don't know why "lowering the heat cap" was mentioned as a stand-alone concept, as it's only ever discussed as part of a system that lowers the heatcap while simultaneously raising heat dissipation. It seems like, based on the offering of a reduced heat cap in the absence of presenting the idea of increased chillng-rates, the Dev's aren't too interested in shifting the Heat System to lower cap/higher dissipation.

I honestly think the PPCs should be coupled at 2 instead of 3 because 3PPCs deal the damage of Dual Gauss already, and I love running 3 PPC builds simply for the powerful Alpha they afford... but if they do let me keep my triple PPCs, then at least my armada of Joke Builds will appreciate it.

I think triple PPCs being penalized would hurt the Awesome

[Relic1701]

Taking the 4P as the example for the the stacking weapon heat penalties, maybe it could be a mech quirk!

Example, normally you accrue penalties when you fire more than 3 at a time, but the a quirk for the HBK-4P is that it can fire 6, as it was designed for boats.

The same can be said for the AWS-8Q. Traditionally, few mechs sported more than 2 PPCs', so firing more than 2 at a time would give you the penalty, but a quirk of the AWS (as a PPC boat) is that it can fire 3 without the heat penalty.

Oh, and as a side note, personally I feel the the 150% thing is a bit too generous.

[Tennex]

If these numbers are real...
the 8 ml medium builds now cost 13 ml's heat. Please tell me these numbers are just arbitrary to illustrate an example.

The boating penalty threshold set at # of weapons feels forced and clunky.

The threshold should be set at 1. any weapon fired, after 1 should induce a heat penalty. although very minor. like 0.5 heat penalty or something (and varying based on weapon) this would feel much more fluid and intuitive in my opinion.

but lets see how this boating penalty plays out.. i'm a bit upset to see one of the only viable medium builds nerfed. a 5 heat penalty seems extremely high ATM.

Boating penalty should vary based on mech. For example the Catapults are meant to boat missiles and should have a higher threshold... or a boating penalty exemption for LRMs.

Edited by Tennex, 11 June 2013 - 01:21 PM.

[Banditman]

Another thing I just realized. Your change to pulse lasers is going to throw LPL's into the *******.

These lasers are already the sorry stepchild of the MWO universe. They currently weigh exactly the same as an ER PPC, produce slightly less heat and the same damage. Unlike the ER PPC, their damage is not focused on one spot, but spreads across the target and their range is bloody awful.

With this change, you are increasing the heat, making these weapons even less desirable.

If there isn't some advantage to carrying this weapon, why is it even in the game?

Consider dropping the weight on this weapon to 5T, like the standard laser. It would then at least have some use as a weapon on mechs specifically designed for close range combat.

[Mick Mars]

As to the 6ml rule, why don't you just make those types of rules mech specific- i.e. for the 4p you can fire 6 at a time, but any other mech the limit is 4. On stalkers, make it 3 ppc at a time, but the awesome 8q and 9m(which are designed to boat ppcs) get a break at 4. I agree with some of the others as to the length of time between shots to get the penalty. Make it longer say to .75-1.0 secs. As far as pulse lasers go, rather than increasing dmg, why don't you reduce beam duration instead?

[rdmx]

The heat penalty for medium lasers is dumb.
I honestly don't think anyone is complaining about medium lasers.

How bout instead of ruining the point of 2 medium chassis, you bring the other chassis in line?

Also I fear all this is going to do is make things arbitrarily complicated.
People will macro the timer for the heat penalty anyway just like they already do with Ultra ACs.

[Banditman]

Mick Mars, on 11 June 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

As to the 6ml rule, why don't you just make those types of rules mech specific- i.e. for the 4p you can fire 6 at a time, but any other mech the limit is 4. On stalkers, make it 3 ppc at a time, but the awesome 8q and 9m(which are designed to boat ppcs) get a break at 4

This is a good idea, and would dovetail in well with the system of "quirks" that already exists.

[Kaldor]

Prosperity Park, on 11 June 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Yeah, I don't know why "lowering the heat cap" was mentioned as a stand-alone concept, as it's only ever discussed as part of a system that lowers the heatcap while simultaneously raising heat dissipation. It seems like, based on the offering of a reduced heat cap in the absence of presenting the idea of increased chillng-rates, the Dev's aren't too interested in shifting the Heat System to lower cap/higher dissipation. I honestly think the PPCs should be coupled at 2 instead of 3 because 3PPCs deal the damage of Dual Gauss already, and I love running 3 PPC builds simply for the powerful Alpha they afford... but if they do let me keep my triple PPCs, then at least my armada of Joke Builds will appreciate it.

I have a feeling that cap and dissipation are linked in the code and they would need to separate these 2 values to do what me and whole bunch of people smarter than me have suggested.