1263 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Deathlike, on 11 June 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

You could say the same thing for ECM, Seismic, and maybe a few other things... but you know, that idea is so out of the box, it's probably not gonna work.

Well they almost tried to do it with ECM...then had an about face.

But they really opened up the lines of communication with UI2.0, and I was hoping that it was a cognizant change on their part to try and start using the best resource available to them (the players).

Maybe I was wrong. Who knows? Wouldn't be the first time.

[Thomas Covenant]

Quote

Flamers and Machine Guns are getting a damage boost. Flamers will be increased from 0.4 damage to 0.7 damage. Machine Guns will be going from 0.08 damage per bullet to 0.1 damage per bullet. (June 18th Patch)

Quote

The heat scale penalty kicks in when the player fires 7 or more MLs and for each ML fired beyond 7, the heat scale increases. The breakdown would look as follows (Keep in mind, these numbers are for demonstration purposes only):

6 ML fired = 0 heat penalty
7 ML fired = 5 heat penalty
8 ML fired = 10 heat penalty
9 ML fired = 20 heat penalty

To avoid the heat penalty while playing a Swayback is easily avoided if the player fires 6 MLs and waits 0.5 seconds and then fires the remaining 3 MLs. Doing so will result in 0 heat penalties.

How each weapon system will be individually tuned:
Weapons like the PPC would have their thresholds set to 3 with a higher heat penalty per additional simultaneous firing of PPCs.
3 PPC fired = 0 heat penalty
4 PPC fired = 10 heat penalty
5 PPC fired = 20 heat penalty
6 PPC fired = 40 heat penalty

Again, if a player wants to play a 6 PPC stalker,

[Deathlike]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 11 June 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

Well they almost tried to do it with ECM...then had an about face.

But they really opened up the lines of communication with UI2.0, and I was hoping that it was a cognizant change on their part to try and start using the best resource available to them (the players).

Maybe I was wrong. Who knows? Wouldn't be the first time.

I thought the wink was a dead giveaway.

The UI is a disaster, and balance is equally that. Frankly, anything that gets them to COMMUNICATE their issues or concerns is better that DICTATING ideas that are badly broken and out of touch with respect to the game.

Edited by Deathlike, 11 June 2013 - 05:19 PM.

[WolvesX]

"S-SRMs are undergoing a revamp on their targeting solutions. There are 7 bones that are randomly selected by each SSRM missile. Right now, those bones are located at joints rather than center-points for each of the components. We are looking at changing that so the bones are placed further apart and more toward the center of each component. We are also looking at weighting the torso bones in a manner that make them not a priority for SSRMs. For example, all components would have a weight of 1.0. The Torsos however would take a weighting of 0.35(LT) 0.3(CT) 0.35(RT). The reasoning behind this weighting is that if all the torsos had an equal value of 1, each missile would have a 3/7 chance of going for a torso. Any sort of torso twist/movement would increase the chance of a missile in flight to hit the CT (since it’s the biggest component on a Mech) if they were to target a side torso."

This is a good idea imo. The LRMs maybe should work in a similar way.

BUT this is only a good idea, if they got there damage adjusted also. If they just hit all over the place, they will be with 1.5 dmg and 0.86 DPS, just bad.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Flamers and Machine Guns are getting a damage boost. Flamers will be increased from 0.4 damage to 0.7 damage. Machine Guns will be going from 0.08 damage per bullet to 0.1 damage per bullet. (June 18th Patch)"

Just not enough I think, especially the flamer, but a step in the right direction. Remove the cone from the MG, make them viable in higher elo.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Pulse Lasers are being normalized to have their variances standardized between the different sizes. This is in preparation of them being tuned as we move toward launch. What this directly means is that for now, Small Pulse Lasers will have their damage increased to 3.4 and their heat reduced to 2.4. Large Pulse Lasers will have their damage increased to 10.6 but their heat is also increased to 8.5. This puts all 3 pulse lasers in alignment of having an approximate 1.25 variance for DPS and a 1.3 variance for HPS. Once this is implemented into the live servers, we will be looking at how they play out and making further adjustments as needed. (June 18th Patch)"

SPLs seem to get better, we will see if they are worth the trade (ML).

MPLs needs a buff, more dps or less heat AND less duration (0.5). 2 tons should be worth it.

LPL nerf is just plain stupid. Its not a OP weapon atm, in fact its very rarely used because PPCs are so much better for various reasons.

Suggestion: Duration to 0.5, 11.5 dmg from 10 as a first step.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Heat Damage at High Heat Levels
We now have a system in test that will apply damage to your Mech’s internal center torso if your Mech exceeds 150% of its tolerable heat level. While your Mech is above 150% heat, it will take damage over time. Once your Mech has cooled below 150%, it will no longer take heat damage. Be careful with that override button or high heat alphas when you’re near your max heat threshold."

100% should be 100%, if you go higher than 110% it should damage your mech and pop your heatsinks and damage your engine.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heat Penalty : Just NO!

---
ALSO:

• SRMs need to do 2 dmg per rocket.
  
• LRMs need the new streak system and more damage, starting with 1.2

Edited by WolvesX, 11 June 2013 - 05:20 PM.

[aniviron]

ssm, on 11 June 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

If I had my tinfoil hat on, I'd say the target of this particular change isn't really HBK-P, but upcoming (inevitably) 12 ER ML Nova.

The Nova is my favourite mech, but I really doubt it will ever make it into the game. Imagine the outcry- it does like 90kph stock, 12 er mlas, jumpjets, and it is a third as tall as a normal medium, shorter than a light even. That, combined with the fact that the arms go outside of the legs and the lack of torso twist all make me think the Nova will never make it into this game, iconic though it is.

[Sable Dove]

SSRM change looks nice, but I suspect it will fail the same as the previous attempt to fix them failed.


MGs may be marginally useful, but highly unlikely, and I can guarantee you that Flamers will still be useless. At least you're not making huge swings in balance with every change, which is an improvement. This isn't near enough - especially not for Flamers - but at least they're not going to suddenly become brutally overpowered in one patch.


Pulse laser changes look... interesting. Unfortunately, you balanced them based on the MPL, instead of the LPL, which was the closest to being balanced of the three pulse lasers. Still, it's encouraging. Will likely need another small buff to be good, but it's a step forward.


150%? Do I even need to explain how pointless this is? (Probably.)
It's almost impossible to even hit 150% without the override, and if you hit that with the override, you are going to die under the current system already.
Make it low damage at 90+%, high damage at 100+%, massive damage if over 100% while overridden. Yes, you must penalize mechs for overheating even if they shut down; just less than if they don't shut down.
Your proposal does nothing. No one gets to 150% heat without dying or shutting down already.


Boat penalty does nothing because the problem is that mechs are able to do 45-60 damage to a single component with a single click. Changing that to two clicks is not a solution.

PPCs should have the limit at no more than 2, including both PPCs and ERPPCs. There is no mech like the Hunchback that is designed to fire 3 or more PPCs simultaneously. The Awesomes are PPC boats, but that doesn't mean they fire all three at once. Two PPCs in the torsos of several Awesomes; 2PPCs on the arms of the CPLT-K2; Two PPCs ought to be the limit.

Especially since this doesn't change the fact that ERPPCs are overpowered because their main drawback has no significant penalties.

By your reasoning, ML, MPL, SPL, SL all have a limit of 6.
PPC/ERPPC should have a limit of 2.
LL/ERLL should have a limit of 2 or 3.
Flamers who the heck knows because they're garbage. They should be unlimited.

LRM15/LRM20 limit of 2 each.
LRM5/LRM10 limit of 4 each.
(Also, fix the bug allowing mechs to fire multiple missiles out of the same tube simultaneously.)

AC20 limit of 1. Huge heat penalty.
Gauss limit of 1. Even more huge heat penalty (generating enough energy to fire both at once would require an absurd amount of energy, creating much heat).

AC/5, UAC/5 limit of 2
AC/2 limit of 3


Even with these limits, it still won't change that Gauss and (ER)PPCs are just plain overpowered, since their main drawbacks (explosive and fragile; and high heat) are mitigated by poor mechanics (over-valued armour/lack of IS, and extremely-vulnerable CT; and lack of any heat penalties below 100% heat).



Accuracy penalties for running too hot, for jumpjetting, for falling, for landing. Allow for pinpoint strikes if the mech remains stationary, and is relatively cool (at least below 40% heat, perhaps) for a couple seconds, but otherwise, de-converge their weapons if they are moving, jumping, falling, or are very hot, with a limit of firing straight forward. If you think this reduces skill, you do not know what skill is beyond manual dexterity.

[Metafox]

I was really hoping for a PPC heat increase, but I do like the boating penalty. I'd prefer it if PPCs were more of a specialized high-heat niche weapon and not a general purpose weapon as they are right now. Maybe raise the ERPPC heat and give PPCs feedback self-damage that scales within 90 meters?

[Traigus]

Like the weapon changes, LPL may still need work

---------------------------
If you are set on heat solutions instead of aiming solutions...:

Here is a quick fix with lower programming time and less complication than the proposed system (random numbers of different guns is confusing and weird).

----------------------
Step 1. Leave guns as they are for now.(tweak heat later)

Step 2. Add internal damage to 100%+ heat (small amounts close in, and more at big heat.levels)

Step 3. Remove auto-shutdown, and let everyone dance with the devil they brought.

Alpha boats will be blowing up all over the place.

----------------------------------

Auto-shutdown is the get out of jail free card. it is hand-holding and what is keeping a lot of these boaters and BETA-STRIKE nuts alive.

Let people cross that line of pain, maybe the bacon smell will teach them.

Sure I can manually shut down, but make me take damage while that heat drains from 120% to 100% (even if it goes faster on shutdown). It is already too late.


Step 4. Add heat when needed to problem guns and/or tweak heat master scale a little if needed (you may not need step 4)

-AC/2, AC/20, have high heat already, and have lots of 'splody ammo if they get careless.

-Gauss blow up normally, and will be a liability on a 3PPC +G stalker that overheats a lot, even for minor internal damage can set one off..

I will guarantee you, people will shoot less guns at once if you do this, maybe enough for you not to have to do anything but some remaining gun balance.

[Sybreed]

I appreciate that PGI is trying to fix the current, boring, alpha strike meta, but unfortunately, what is currently suggested won't fix the Gauss+2ERPPC builds that IMO are the best builds in the game. I don't have an idea how to properly balance this, but homeless bill made a good suggestion and his thread should be checked out by the devs.

Also, like many people, I think the 0.5 second is not enough time to prevent pinpoint damage, anyone with decent motion control can hit the same spot twice on a target with just a 0.5 seconds delay, but it's a start!

There should be a heat penalty for mechs firing 2 PPCs at the same time with the exception of the K-2 (penalty at 3 or more) and the Awesomes 9Q and 9M (penalty at 4 and more)

Still, like I said, won't fix the issue, but it's a start and I can appreciate PGI putting thoughts into this. What they should do IMO is have a discussion with a few select players (those who suggested reasonnable stuff in a reasonnable way) and take ideas from them.

Edited by Sybreed, 11 June 2013 - 05:32 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Victor Morson, on 11 June 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

A- Overly complex and unnecessary

But more importantly:

B- High ROF weapons would horribly mislead this system.

1) it's less complex that the proposed system

2) which high RoF weapons would mislead this system? IIRC the highest ROF weapons are MG/Flamer, and they dont do enough dmg to hit 20 dmg, and everything else is 2.5 seconds or more cycle time to hit 20 dmg when firing 2 guns at once. so dual AC/10's would be at 20 dmg inside the cap with 2.5 ROF.

You'll need to clarify your argument to make an actually valid counter point.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 11 June 2013 - 05:27 PM.

[Jonneh]

Kinda terrible for lasers really. Probably not imo. PPCs are the problem, cause while boating them you're also out of range for everything other than enemy snipers. Snipers countering snipers countering snipers is the bad model problem.

This change just hurts Mediums and Lights (well, the jenner) too. Boating Jenners and hunchbacks an actual problem? No, tbh.

[Elrail]

And still shaking reduce xD

[Victor Morson]

WolvesX, on 11 June 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

"S-SRMs are undergoing a revamp on their targeting solutions. There are 7 bones that are randomly selected by each SSRM missile. Right now, those bones are located at joints rather than center-points for each of the components. We are looking at changing that so the bones are placed further apart and more toward the center of each component. We are also looking at weighting the torso bones in a manner that make them not a priority for SSRMs. For example, all components would have a weight of 1.0. The Torsos however would take a weighting of 0.35(LT) 0.3(CT) 0.35(RT). The reasoning behind this weighting is that if all the torsos had an equal value of 1, each missile would have a 3/7 chance of going for a torso. Any sort of torso twist/movement would increase the chance of a missile in flight to hit the CT (since it’s the biggest component on a Mech) if they were to target a side torso."

This is a good idea imo. The LRMs maybe should work in a similar way.

BUT this is only a good idea, if they got there damage adjusted also. If they just hit all over the place, they will be with 1.5 dmg and 0.86 DPS, just bad.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Flamers and Machine Guns are getting a damage boost. Flamers will be increased from 0.4 damage to 0.7 damage. Machine Guns will be going from 0.08 damage per bullet to 0.1 damage per bullet. (June 18th Patch)"

Just not enough I think, especially the flamer, but a step in the right direction. Remove the cone from the MG, make them viable in higher elo.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Pulse Lasers are being normalized to have their variances standardized between the different sizes. This is in preparation of them being tuned as we move toward launch. What this directly means is that for now, Small Pulse Lasers will have their damage increased to 3.4 and their heat reduced to 2.4. Large Pulse Lasers will have their damage increased to 10.6 but their heat is also increased to 8.5. This puts all 3 pulse lasers in alignment of having an approximate 1.25 variance for DPS and a 1.3 variance for HPS. Once this is implemented into the live servers, we will be looking at how they play out and making further adjustments as needed. (June 18th Patch)"

SPLs seem to get better, we will see if they are worth the trade (ML).

MPLs needs a buff, more dps or less heat AND less duration (0.5). 2 tons should be worth it.

LPL nerf is just plain stupid. Its not a OP weapon atm, in fact its very rarely used because PPCs are so much better for various reasons.

Suggestion: Duration to 0.5, 11.5 dmg from 10 as a first step.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Heat Damage at High Heat Levels
We now have a system in test that will apply damage to your Mech’s internal center torso if your Mech exceeds 150% of its tolerable heat level. While your Mech is above 150% heat, it will take damage over time. Once your Mech has cooled below 150%, it will no longer take heat damage. Be careful with that override button or high heat alphas when you’re near your max heat threshold."

100% should be 100%, if you go higher than 110% it should damage your mech and pop your heatsinks and damage your engine.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heat Penalty : Just NO!

---
ALSO:

• SRMs need to do 2 dmg per rocket.
  
• LRMs need the new streak system and more damage, starting with 1.2

Based on this post, WolvesX for community manager '13!

heh

[Nacon]

How about this? Stop trying to address all the ******** whining. No matter what you do, low-skilled players will find a new way to whine everytime pro-players find a new way to kill them.

This heat penalty is ******** and unrealistic. Frankly I don't give a damn if someone is boating, let them boat however they want! I don't care! I'll destroy them and they shall whine some more... that's how you win a game.

Stop babysitting and get back to work!

PS: if you give such penalty to ballistic like 6xAC2 on Jagermech, I'm gonna flip a table out the window.

[Ryvucz]

Wooo [REDACTED], I'll be a [REDACTED] [REDACTED] no good [REDACTED] [REDACTED] [REDACTED], they are FINALLY adjusting those [REDACTED] monkey [REDACTED] streaks.

I'll be [REDACTED] bricks when that [REDACTED] is finally [REDACTED] fixed.

[REDACTED] [REDACTED], I am [REDACTED] elated.

I will [REDACTED] blood in their [REDACTED] names for getting this [REDACTED] addressed quickly.

Yippie Ki Yay, Mother [REDACTED]!

[ssm]

aniviron, on 11 June 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

The Nova is my favourite mech, but I really doubt it will ever make it into the game. Imagine the outcry- it does like 90kph stock, 12 er mlas, jumpjets, and it is a third as tall as a normal medium, shorter than a light even. That, combined with the fact that the arms go outside of the legs and the lack of torso twist all make me think the Nova will never make it into this game, iconic though it is.

I'm pretty sure that all 16 of 3050's omnis will make it to the game, and Nova among them - knowing Alex's work he'll make a viable (size and all) model out of it.

But potential balance problems have to be adressed now - devs can't afford to rework entire game after release.

Edited by ssm, 11 June 2013 - 05:46 PM.

[Darkside7777]

PPCs will still be too efficient after this. Please, for the love of god, just revert PPCs to their old heat value and be done with it.

[aniviron]

ssm, on 11 June 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure that all 16 of 3050's omnis will make it to the game, and Nova among them - knowing Alex's work he'll make a viable (size and all) model out of it.

But potential balance problems have to be adressed now - devs can't afford to rework entire game after release.

Okay, so let's assume that the Nova does make it in under this system. Firing an alpha with those lasers generates an additional 60 heat- that's not a good sign for the stock, iconic variant.

[Shalune]

I like the changes, but don't see much changing from the alpha heat adjustments. Right now it affects what? Laser hunches and energy Stalkers?

While hurting 6 PPC stalkers is a nice quality of life improvement for PUGs, PPC stalkers are not the problem. They're a symptom of the problem. Of the suggestions from players so far, those surrounding convergence make the most sense to me, and address the core issue: the predominance of pinpoint alphas.

[Victor Morson]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 June 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

1) it's less complex that the proposed system

2) which high RoF weapons would mislead this system? IIRC the highest ROF weapons are MG/Flamer, and they dont do enough dmg to hit 20 dmg, and everything else is 2.5 seconds or more cycle time to hit 20 dmg when firing 2 guns at once. so dual AC/10's would be at 20 dmg inside the cap with 2.5 ROF.

You'll need to clarify your argument to make an actually valid counter point.

I'd say 1 because, really, no system like this at all is needed. We don't need to rework it, it simply needs to not exist. I'm all for adding heat effects but every single thing from the proposed plan needs to go tin the trash, along with the core idea of it. It's not good for anyone.

As for 2.. it is my hope that one day Pulse Lasers will actually have a fairly decent ROF; also Autocannon/2s are an excellent example of what I mean. You often see 'mechs running 4 and way too rapidly to standardize the heat like you were pitching.

I'm just opposed to ANY system that impacts Alphas. I do not mind, however, making people manage their heat better and like I keep saying and more than for some new heat effects. I am OK with punishing very hot builds, or making them a high risk/reward.

I am opposed, however, to limiting designs on artificial limits for no practical purpose.