1263 replies to this topic

[White Bear 84]

WolvesX, on 11 June 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

And for the love of mechajebus...

STOP TROLLING PAUL WITH LPLs!

I challenge Paul to a cicada dual. In his cicada he will have LPL. In my cicada i will have LL.

Expected outcome.. Next patch: LPL Buff!

The question is.. ..will my challenge be met?

Edited by White Bear 84, 11 June 2013 - 07:05 PM.

[Stalkerr]

Paul,

I don't think the actual data on boating and it's effectiveness supports the effort you and your team have spent talking through and documenting the proposed solution, let alone the dev effort required to implement it. I would encourage you to look past the anecdotes and personal experience, and instead take a real look at what the data supports. I'm guessing that the frequency of effective uberboats over time is pretty low, given the design compromises involved in building them in the first place.

Solving an issue which is not a problem via an elegant solution does not improve the game, it makes your code unnecessarily complex and causes the balance of the meta game to shift in entirely unexpected ways. I hate to say it, but if it isn't actually broken, don't fix it. Do not constrict your players creativity, unless they are actually doing something that significantly breaks the game.

From one (ex) game designer to another (not so ex), I'd encourage you to shelve this until all other weapon balancing is complete, and then take a good look at the data and see if this is actually a problem worth spending dev hours on. I'm guessing there are about a hundred other high priority items that would be better served with those resources.

Thanks,

Edited by Stalkerr, 11 June 2013 - 06:54 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 11 June 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

Sounds Great. I especially like the way you are handling the Hunchback -4p...almost like a "quirk" of that chassis since it's designed that way.

I am hoping you will keep this published this somewhere however. Sounds like a good way to encourage diversity.

Honestly, I would've gone for 2 PPC's..w/ no penalty and start penalizing when you exceed 2 unless the design is obviously designed for that. Likein the case of the awesome, which comes with 3....

PPC's were supposed to be FEARED weapons...so lowering damage or spreading it would probably make it and overtonned large laser. But it's supposed to be HOT.

For those that don't like this...
Boating is a part of Battletech so we do have to live with it somewhat. (Yes I know, it's just BASED of TT). But remember, for those that say the weapons themselves are the issue...since we have double armour, they are only half as effective anyways.

The issue is that they need to make the quirks more unique per mech not an arbitrary system based on the weapons.

The Stalker for instance has a huge number of Energy hardpoints because it carried a lot of mixes of lasers and this get abused with lots of PPCs and LL etc. However the Awesome can also boat these weapons but arguably the Awesome is suppose to and its terrible hit boxes give it a downside. Should the stalker suffer a lower limit to the heat penalty than the Awesome?

4 PPCs as still an incredibly powerful build and they still will put their damage in a single location, they will just be able to fire faster because they can pack on more heat sinks.

[Lefty Lucy]

Ok, great, 20 pages of talking about the "boating" nerf, but what about the major issue that was not mentioned at all:

When are you guys going to bring SRMs back as a viable weapon?

[GreatBeer]

Asmudius Heng, on 11 June 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

The issue is that they need to make the quirks more unique per mech not an arbitrary system based on the weapons.

The Stalker for instance has a huge number of Energy hardpoints because it carried a lot of mixes of lasers and this get abused with lots of PPCs and LL etc. However the Awesome can also boat these weapons but arguably the Awesome is suppose to and its terrible hit boxes give it a downside. Should the stalker suffer a lower limit to the heat penalty than the Awesome?

4 PPCs as still an incredibly powerful build and they still will put their damage in a single location, they will just be able to fire faster because they can pack on more heat sinks.

I agree with everything in this post.

[Monky]

PPC limit should be 2, ERPPC limit should be 1, Gauss Rifle limit should be 1 (with an ERPPC's worth of heat generated for second Gauss fired at same time), same for AC20. This gives us viable fixes for large scale PINPOINT damage without screwing the weapons out of effective DPS.

Lasers should be set at 7. (No one fires the head laser with the arms on the hunchback... it's grouped with the 6 laser nest)

Then, you will have a viable fix for pinpoint alpha boating, and boating will still allow the weapons to be useful.

[NeoFighter]

PGI,
shouldn't be more than 2 PPC than at 3 you get penalties......3ppc is still overpowered. and were still gonna see people rock 4 ppc boats everywhere.


2 plz

[Otto Cannon]

LockeJaw, on 11 June 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

If you let people put ppc's where small lasers were before, THEY"RE GOING TO. [/size]

If you stop people changing the mechs beyond minor 'sl,ml or flamer' choices they're going to stop playing the game.

When the game and weapons are balanced properly there is no need to limit builds at all. Nothing you can do in the mechlab should cause any problems because any build should have inherent strength and weakness. Adding more restrictions would ruin the game completely without solving any of the problems you seem to think would be magically fixed.

[johnyboy420]

it needs too be like this


2 PPC's=0%
3 PPC's=20%
4 PPC's=40%
5 PPC's=50%
6 PPC's=60%

do it now quit with these stuped numbers 2 PPC's and a Gauss is still ********

[Victor Morson]

Monky, on 11 June 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

PPC limit should be 2, ERPPC limit should be 1, Gauss Rifle limit should be 1 (with an ERPPC's worth of heat generated for second Gauss fired at same time), same for AC20. This gives us viable fixes for large scale PINPOINT damage without screwing the weapons out of effective DPS.

Lasers should be set at 7. (No one fires the head laser with the arms on the hunchback... it's grouped with the 6 laser nest)

Then, you will have a viable fix for pinpoint alpha boating, and boating will still allow the weapons to be useful.

How about we just set team weight limits so not everyone is driving a 'mech that should be able to carry 3 PPCs and such?

If weight goes down, so do the amount of big guns on the field. We need weight limits. We've always needed weight limits.

[Vandal]

Monky, on 11 June 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

PPC limit should be 2, ERPPC limit should be 1, Gauss Rifle limit should be 1 (with an ERPPC's worth of heat generated for second Gauss fired at same time), same for AC20. This gives us viable fixes for large scale PINPOINT damage without screwing the weapons out of effective DPS.

Lasers should be set at 7. (No one fires the head laser with the arms on the hunchback... it's grouped with the 6 laser nest)

Then, you will have a viable fix for pinpoint alpha boating, and boating will still allow the weapons to be useful.

That destroys the strengths of a lot of canon builds.
A bad idea.

Edited by Vandal, 11 June 2013 - 07:44 PM.

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

Monky, on 11 June 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

PPC limit should be 2, ERPPC limit should be 1, Gauss Rifle limit should be 1 (with an ERPPC's worth of heat generated for second Gauss fired at same time), same for AC20.

This just illustrates the insanity of the heat scaling. Shoot one GR, 1 heat. Shoot two at once, 12 heat. Shoot two in quick succession, 2 heat.

Why? Nobody knows.

[Kai OnoHonu]

That all very neat and everything, BUT since you mentioned gameplay...any mention of fixing issues (PGI/CryEngine) that has made the game nearly unplayable for (not a small amount of) people with ping bugs? Been almost two months now... I really can't comment on gameplay issues unless this upcoming patch allows me to actually play the game (effectively).

[Victor Morson]

Otto Cannon, on 11 June 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

If you stop people changing the mechs beyond minor 'sl,ml or flamer' choices they're going to stop playing the game.

When the game and weapons are balanced properly there is no need to limit builds at all. Nothing you can do in the mechlab should cause any problems because any build should have inherent strength and weakness. Adding more restrictions would ruin the game completely without solving any of the problems you seem to think would be magically fixed.

He speaks the truth. Restrictions should be organic from the mechanics, not imposed to band-aid them.

Although I hate to apply the term band-aid to this fix. This is more like performing the wrong surgery on the wrong person by mistake.

In a world... one man believes Hunchback laserboats are overpowered.. and he must stand alone in seeing them nerf'ed to return the Highlander to it's rightful place, no matter the opposition. Armed with a lone nerf bat, he must begin his quest. This time it's personal. Paul Inouye is THE BALANCE BREAKER, coming this Summer!

Spoiler Alert, it has a twist ending:

Spoiler

The medium laserboats were actually sort of underpowered all along!

Edited by Victor Morson, 11 June 2013 - 07:13 PM.

[NeoFighter]

Zharot, on 11 June 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

This just illustrates the insanity of the heat scaling. Shoot one GR, 1 heat. Shoot two at once, 12 heat. Shoot two in quick succession, 2 heat.

Why? Nobody knows.

for now this is only for energy weapons which are heat weapons, hes a random guy doing suggestions, i bet you when pgi make penalties to ballistics they wont be as much as the energy weapons. So saying 12 heat for 2 gauss is irrelevant at this point

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

NeoFighter, on 11 June 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

for now this is only for energy weapons which are heat weapons, hes a random guy doing suggestions, i bet you when pgi make penalties to ballistics they wont be as much as the energy weapons. So saying 12 heat for 2 gauss is irrelevant at this point

All weapons generate heat. What are you babbling about?

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Streak changes ... good. It doesn't nerf them out of usefulness, and it takes away my biggest complaint ... every time I get hit by streaks, whether I twist away or not, I get hit in the CT. 2x SSRM-2 and one ton of ammo should be roughly on par with 1x SRM-6 and one ton of ammo ... right now, that is not the case ... not even close.

MG buff ... good ... not great (I like the idea of having convergence out to max range, and then scattering).

Flamer buff ... Meh.

SPL changes ... better, but not good enough to make me want to try them ... I already average 3+ damage per hit with a medium laser ... that weighs the same ... but has 3x more range ... and generates less heat.

LPL changes ... other than the wub-wub, the only reasons I would ever equip an LPL were less heat compared to a PPC or more damage for simliar heat in the same crit space as a LL (i.e.: in the CT of a SDR-K) ... at 2.125 HPS (compared to 2.0 for a PPC or 1.65 for a LL) there's no good reason to use LPLs ... unless you just wub the sound. All you need is wub.

Heat Damage ... almost there ... I think 125% is probably more appropriate, and the damage should continue until the 'mech cools to below 100%. That "oh crap ... Alpha" right after powering up from an auto shut down should hurt.

Heat Penalty ... I disagree with this as a solution, but will hold off on providing more feedback until I have seen it in action, and see the penalties for all weapons.

[El Bandito]

150% heat is too generous for applying damage. Most high heat alphas will shut down way before reaching 150% and suffer no penalty for it.

Make it 125%.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 June 2013 - 07:21 PM.

[Rhialto]

• Don't like the new heat penalty thing... I hope it won't make it.

• Why people whine about dual AC/20 or 4xPPC+ and such? To build those you sacrifice armor or a few HS and often run slow because of a below average engine so I think this compensate enough. That's the basic, no? You add fire power but sacrifice on other parts... or you get the fastest engine, max armor and use cheap weapons.

• MG change are welcome and should now please everyone for a while.

• Flamer change, hmmm... like someone said instead of damage they should actually heat the enemy and with a proper limit, say heat enemy at max 70% would mostly prevent it to fire.

• The 150% does not work... instead let me explain how I would like to see it. When you touch 95% heat I'd like the girl to say Initiating shutdown, then you have 2 seconds to press O to cancel this to let you cool down manually or if in action one could decide to fire one more time and risk to go over 100% and take damage over time. How's that sound?

[Five by Five]

Stalkerr, on 11 June 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

I don't think the actual data on boating and it's effectiveness supports the effort you and your team have spent talking through and documenting the proposed solution, let alone the dev effort required to implement it. I would encourage you to look past the anecdotes and personal experience, and instead take a real look at what the data supports. I'm guessing that the frequency of effective uberboats over time is pretty low, given the design compromises involved in building them in the first place.

Solving an issue which is not a problem via an elegant solution does not improve the game, ... and causes the balance of the meta game to shift in entirely unexpected ways. ...

.... I'd encourage you to shelve this until all other weapon balancing is complete, ...

I agree with Stalkerr on several of these points (sorry to hack-up my quoting of you so much).

Having played several of the boats (I do like the hyper-laser stalker),.... they seem much more effect when you are getting hit by them than when you are piloting them. When piloting a light, I like finding the 6 PPC stalker builds,... they spend most of their time shut-down, but moving on from personal anecdote and offering a constructive idea.

If a heat scale is looked at,... rather than just doing it on a per weapon basis, I would do it on a per mech per chassis variant per weapon basis. Yes, the Hunckback 4P is meant to have a group of 6 medium lasers, but what of 6 mediums on a Jenner or 4 large lasers on a K2 Catapult? If you do adjust heat scale penalties and bonus on a per variant basis, then it actually becomes part of the quirks of the chassis and adds depth rather than an across the board arbitrary penalty. Think of the Warhawk, that was meant for 4 ERPPCs, but the K2 was only meant for 2 PPCs. Does the Jeager have the cooling to support a twin AC/20 build or was it meant for only lighter ac groups? How about the K2 and AC20?

Edited by Five by Five, 11 June 2013 - 07:35 PM.