1263 replies to this topic

[TexAce]

Love all the changes except the heat thing and killing of LPLs in favor of PPCs. Seriously why do you hate pulse lasers so much?

And why are you so afraid to look at the pin-pointing...why?!

Edited by TexAss, 12 June 2013 - 01:00 AM.

[Capt Cole 117]

aniviron, on 12 June 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

I will get right on pairing a large pulse laser with a medium laser on the HBK 4P. Let's see here, to make up for the seven ton LPL, I only need to remove seven mlas, leaving me with just those two guns. Yeah, sounds reasonable.

Or you could use mlas and small lasers, smartass.

[Victor Morson]

aniviron, on 12 June 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

I will get right on pairing a large pulse laser with a medium laser on the HBK 4P. Let's see here, to make up for the seven ton LPL, I only need to remove seven mlas, leaving me with just those two guns. Yeah, sounds reasonable.

He lives in some strange world where he thinks TT designs are/will be viable. It'd be funny if it weren't sad, at times.

[Sgt Rali]

I have used LPLs in many of my builds, but with these changes, they are not competetive enough agaginst other weapons, especially the PPC:
Slightly more damage than a PPC, but more heat, significantly less range, same weight and less pinpoint damage.... why should i use LPLs anymore?

[Demos]

Hmm, IMHO the LPL will be killed as a viable weapon.
It's hardly competitive now, and the change include a damage increase of ~ 6% vs. a heat increase of ~ 18%

[Reptilizer]

The example with the Swayback already shows the flaws of that idea:
The Swayback also has a 7th energy-slot in the head. A standard build would also place a ML there (also torso, same focus). Following the given example, using this ML would result in a severe heat penalty. Using the 7th laser separately actually means breaking the design of the mech: Fire 6 pack, wait half a second, fire 7th laser. You can program that to a gaming mouse or keyboard, but for a normal player this means he has to find something else like a TAG to make that slot useful again. Not a desirable change in my opininion and not worth the cost to get rid of high alpha boats...

Instead, listen to the guy below. His idea seems quite sound and would not "break" mech design that badly.

ManDaisy, on 11 June 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Personally I think the heat penalty based on weapon amount is a bad way to go. Deciding how many weapons constitutes a heat penalty is very arbitrary, at best based on personal opinion.


150% heat also seems WAY too generous. 125% would be much more realistic as many more mechs other then the most min maxed variants would have fall into this category.


What I would suggestion is a system where max heat generated at once, decreases the effectiviness of heat sinks, rather then create more heat.

20 heat = no reduction to heat sink ability
25 heat = 5% heat sink reduction = for 3 seconds
30 heat = 10% heat sink reduction = for 5 seconds
40 heat = 20% heat sink reduction = for 10 seconds
50 heat = 30% heat sink reduction = for 15 seconds

and so on. As for how long the reduction reduction period last, that would be based on personal prefferance.

So bigger alphas would take longer to cool, with any weapon mix.


This current system also fails to deal with mixed weapon high heat alpha builds. For example, you have y SRM6 boats which also include lasers, ppcs and ballistics. Individually these weapons would not constitute boating. Together however they do.

[Kmieciu]

TekGnosis, on 11 June 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Ok, so let me get this straight.

The balance mechanism proposed has the following properties:

It does not address future meta.
It is arbitrary by nature.
It must be re-evaluated (arbitrarily) each time any weapon impacted is changed in stats...
It is not intuitive or obvious to a person using the mechlab who does not read forums.
It creates new mini-game that can be macro'd away, penalizing only those 'not in the know'.

Seriously?

Keep the system simple.
In Mechwarrior 2 & 3 shutting down did not prevent internal damage. Why should we be safe in MWO up to 150% or some other arbitrary number? You go over 100%, you take damage. Shutting down cools you off a bit faster. Simple as that.

Even the "dumbed down" Mechwarrior 4 had movement penalties when the heat reached critical levels (over 80% heat). This would discourage the "alpha strike than back to cover" mentality.

Mechwarrior 3 had low heat threshold and high heat dissipation. If you fired 6 PPC you would simply explode. People actually used chain fire in that game. Amazing!

Hey Paul - how about a solution:
open the ItemStats.xml file on the server
find
name="DoubleHeatSink_MkI"
change
<HeatSinkStats cooling="0.14" heatbase="-1.4"/>
to
<HeatSinkStats cooling="0.14" heatbase="-1"/>

Test the results.

[Capt Cole 117]

Victor Morson, on 12 June 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

If you think this will hurt anything other than 6 PPC Stalkers (which suck anyway) you clearly have not been paying attention. This hurts exactly two things: Them, and lights/mediums. That is all.

Please explain that logic.*gets popcorn*

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Victor Morson, on 12 June 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

I don't think we are the ones who don't understand this man. I'm sorry but you don't have even the slightest realistic expectation as to how this will play out. You're not even screwing my 3 PPC 1 Gauss Highlander over at all with this.. the current top tier meta won't be hurt.

If you think this will hurt anything other than 6 PPC Stalkers (which suck anyway) you clearly have not been paying attention. This hurts exactly two things: Them, and lights/mediums. That is all.

U make a good point, which means it's a bandaid solution. The convergence discussion needs more support as pin-point shooting is the bigger problem

Edited by Brown Hornet, 12 June 2013 - 12:58 AM.

[RapierE01]

Can you give me some Popcorn too? That will be funny.

Because if you use chainfire nothing will change. But a huge Alpha will cause massive heat. And a 8 MLas Alpha is hitting hard enough to get this penality.

Edited by RapierE01, 12 June 2013 - 12:58 AM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

BigMekkUrDakka, on 11 June 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

correct me if i wrong but LPL already have best DPS of all energy weapons(same damage as PPC but 3.25 sec cooldown)

LPL has the exact same DPS as a PPC ... 3.25 second cooldown, after the .75 second beam duration.

[Wintersdark]

Ansel, on 12 June 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

This remindes me of the UAC-5 minigame to unjam it.

Well if you can't use a macro you're screwed, have fun not being able to shoot "exactly" at that 0.5 second threashold lol.

This.

I've nothing against macros, but this system pretty much requires using them to maximize your DPS output. It gives players with macros a substantial advantage over those without. That's a bad place to be.

[Havok1978]

aniviron, on 12 June 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

I will get right on pairing a large pulse laser with a medium laser on the HBK 4P. Let's see here, to make up for the seven ton LPL, I only need to remove seven mlas, leaving me with just those two guns. Yeah, sounds reasonable.

Its not all about the HBK-4P... but you can keep beating that deadhorse if you want.
the 4P which I run, wont be effected by this as you cant pull 2 alphas with it now either, you have to use the described method to run it consistantly or use chainfire to manage its heat already oh great tinfoil wearer of hats... get on that

[Asmosis]

If there are going to be heat penalties, it needs to apply to all weapons fired at the same time, period.

Otherwise all your doing is buffing variants that have multiple types of hardpoints (atlas, highlander etc) while nerfing mechs that don't have multiple types (hunchies, catapults, stalkers) and it doesn't even fix the perceived problem because people will just use 3 PPCs + one ER PPC (which is the same weight/crit slots) anyway.

That's why it should be all weapons fired at the same time, it allows the penalty (which I disagree with, but that's another topic) to be applied EQUALLY to all mech variants.

Edited by Asmosis, 12 June 2013 - 01:05 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Capt Cole 117, on 12 June 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

Please explain that logic.*gets popcorn*

It's right there in the OP clear as crystal, if you take the time to realize what they're saying.

Heat penalties for PPCs kick in at 4. 4. This means 3 PPC + 1 Gauss = No penalty.

Now, over to the BJ1X - now you've got to stagger your fire into multiple groups split a half second apart, meaning you'll miss tons of open shots, lower your overall accurate damage, etc. A lot of the time your window for hitting a target is small, forcing you to fire twice to output the same damage destroys that. They're only option (to be effective) is to run multiples.

The very example in the OP used a Hunchback - VERY specifically a Hunchback.

So 4 PPC Stalkers take a minor heat nerf (provided ER PPCs count as PPCs), 3 PPC + 1 Gauss Highlander/Misery take no penalty. The upcoming Victor with it's sturdy armor and twin Gauss support (on top of PPCs) will be in there soon as well.

The best snipers in the game: 1
A lot of mediums/lights that rely on laser & missile banks: 0

I hope I didn't make you choke on your popcorn.

[Havok1978]

Victor Morson, on 12 June 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

I don't think we are the ones who don't understand this man. I'm sorry but you don't have even the slightest realistic expectation as to how this will play out. You're not even screwing my 3 PPC 1 Gauss Highlander over at all with this.. the current top tier meta won't be hurt.

If you think this will hurt anything other than 6 PPC Stalkers (which suck anyway) you clearly have not been paying attention. This hurts exactly two things: Them, and lights/mediums. That is all.

thats YOUR opinion of how the game mechanics will work.. you dont have anything to go off of yet, but plz, tell me more about how I have no idea about how the game works

[Victor Morson]

Havok1978, on 12 June 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

Its not all about the HBK-4P... but you can keep beating that deadhorse if you want.
the 4P which I run, wont be effected by this as you cant pull 2 alphas with it now either, you have to use the described method to run it consistantly or use chainfire to manage its heat already oh great tinfoil wearer of hats... get on that

So what you are saying is this:
"I run terrible builds, but I won't be hurt. Therefor you wear a tinfoil hat!"

I hate to break it to you but laser banked mediums and lights are somewhat underpowered already. Right on the cusp. "Making it chainfire and manage it's heat" is crippling to these sorts of builds.

So while you're running around in a Hunchback playing this oddball chainfire/alpha/heat game, I'll be shooting you right in the freakin' face with my 3 PPC/1 Gauss Highlander. I've got the same damage, accuracy and power as before, and you don't even have that.

I don't know why you think this is a good thing. It's literally zero impact to the best builds that started this in the first place.

[Lyoto Machida]

DocBach, on 11 June 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

I think triple PPCs being penalized would hurt the Awesome

Someone mentioned this in another thread but maybe you leave the Awesome out of that penalty and consider it a quirk for the chassis.

[Victor Morson]

Havok1978, on 12 June 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

thats YOUR opinion of how the game mechanics will work.. you dont have anything to go off of yet, but plz, tell me more about how I have no idea about how the game works

I don't need to, I think everyone already realizes that from the posts you've been making. You keep unrealistically expecting people to run horrendous builds, because you want people to run Frankenmechs, but you want this in the same meta with very optimized designs.

I don't even understand what you are thinking even from a Frankenmech POV. That is literally a situation nobody wins (Except the top tier snipers, but they might even feel bad about it).

EDIT: Also that's not even opinion. It's right there in the OP. The Hunchback will have to stagger it's fire, the Highlander will not. Black is white, up is down.

Edited by Victor Morson, 12 June 2013 - 01:12 AM.

[Havok1978]

Victor Morson, on 12 June 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

He lives in some strange world where he thinks TT designs are/will be viable. It'd be funny if it weren't sad, at times.

actually I *dont* live in some TT world, I use these builds effectively already.. fact is you know NOTHING about what I do or dont do ingame.

tinfoil sword of QQ tears..deflected.