1263 replies to this topic

[Dan Nashe]

I'm mostly worried about a really gamey dense technical system that's incomprehensible without a lot of forum research and guesswork.

I certainly don't mind trying to weaken high pinpoint alphas, I just hope they're cautious because it's a big game changer.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a simple systems stress gauge, 0-30. All weapons contribute. It dissipates 6 per .1 seconds, extra stress is generated if a pull of the trigger would drive it over the threshhold, simply proportional to weapon damage. (Although not necc. A straight proportion).

(I chose 30 because that's 6 medium lasers or 3 ppcs, conveniently. Or 2 gauss. But not 2 ac 20s.
This prevents trying to game the system with obscure rules about which weapons cooldown together (ppc plus gauss issue).
I.e, you have 29 stress, you pull a trigger for a 20 point weapons group, it generates an extra x * (29+20-30) heat. Where x is adjusted for game balance.

Edited by DanNashe, 12 June 2013 - 10:43 AM.

[Milt]

you have to base TT on a 10 sec turn. so 10 dam with 10 heat on a 10 sec cd. mwo 10 dam 8 heat with a 4 sec cd
if you increase mwo to a 10 sec turn that is what you should get. you also have to take into consideration that armor is double what it was in tt

Edited by Milt, 12 June 2013 - 10:45 AM.

[Fut]

AndyHill, on 12 June 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

You want people to chain fire more? I know I do, and unlike most here, I think smaller 'mechs should be affected as well. The right solution is maddeningly simple: remove group fire entirely. Pinpoint alpha striking is such an enormous benefit over group firing that any other way to approach the issue will simply leave you (PGI) whacking mole-of-the-month -builds forever, leaving only devastated ruins of weapon balance behind.

All group firing?
I think this is a rather broad stroke, as I don't see any problems arising from firing 2SL at once.

I believe the simplest solution has been suggest many times already, and it's introducing a heat penalty a la TT.
This will allow people to customize their Mechs any way they want, but might make them think twice about firing 4+ PPCs (or 9 MLs...etc) at the same time - as that would put them into higher heat levels and render their Mech less effective (via targeting/movement penalties...etc). That Alpha will still be very useful, but only in certain situations.

Win-win-win.
Everybody is happy.

[Foster Bondroff]

I don't like the idea, cause whatever reason you bring to limit certain numbers of weapons is very arbitrary.

Now its 3 PPCs or 6 MLs. Soon it will be 2 AC/20s and dual gauss...where to stop?

And what when people adapte and combined the max not penalized numbers to get huge alphas?

Will there than be a penalty if mechs damage capacity exceeds 35-40 points?

Might it be that not boating but overall alpha damage / DPS is the problem. So why not increase armor by an additional 25%-50% and maybe increase CDs 20-30% and heat across all weapons?

Edited by Foster Bondroff, 12 June 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

kuangmk11, on 12 June 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Please reconsider adding a real heat system. At 150% you should just blow up. Lower heat thresholds across the board. No silly weapon limits, no hardpoint sizes. Just a scale of increasing problems. You know, like its suppose to work. Something like this:

100% - Shutdown. Heat must be below 75% to restart. Heat sinks operate at 50% efficiency due to no cooling circulation. For every percentage point above 100% there is a 1% chance of critical failure.

90% - movement reduced by 50%, ammo explosion risk. Shake/cone of fire

80% - movement reduced by 35%, ammo explosion risk.

70% - movement reduced by 20%,

60% - movement reduced by 10%

50% - movement reduced by 5%

Shutdown is pretty much a death sentence, but you get plenty of warning. Force people to really manage their heat.

So take "shooting on the run" basically out of the game? That is about all that system would do. Penalties, whatever they may be, need to be applied after the 100% threshold is breached. make them brutal and or devastating, but if I am running across an open area and Alpha a seen target, only to be forced to slow down by 20-35(or more)%? Sorry, gameplay and Fun killer.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 12 June 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[Sephlock]

Yes... YES! The era of Taste the Rainbow approaches! Soon I shall destroy you all!

[MustrumRidcully]

Quote

S-SRMs are undergoing a revamp on their targeting solutions. There are 7 bones that are randomly selected by each SSRM missile. Right now, those bones are located at joints rather than center-points for each of the components. We are looking at changing that so the bones are placed further apart and more toward the center of each component. We are also looking at weighting the torso bones in a manner that make them not a priority for SSRMs. For example, all components would have a weight of 1.0. The Torsos however would take a weighting of 0.35(LT) 0.3(CT) 0.35(RT). The reasoning behind this weighting is that if all the torsos had an equal value of 1, each missile would have a 3/7 chance of going for a torso. Any sort of torso twist/movement would increase the chance of a missile in flight to hit the CT (since it’s the biggest component on a Mech) if they were to target a side torso.

A good change, if it works out. Just don't forget to adjust SRM and SSRM damage (and don't necessarily link them together, unless it works out to be balanced that way.

Quote

Flamers and Machine Guns are getting a damage boost. Flamers will be increased from 0.4 damage to 0.7 damage. Machine Guns will be going from 0.08 damage per bullet to 0.1 damage per bullet. (June 18th Patch)

Seems like we might be getting there.Not sure if the FLamer will be useful with that damage. It'S a difficult weapon to balance, as long as you don't just completely ignore the heat increasing penalty and just try to make it into a DPS weapon.

Remember to lower the crit damage a bit. (PErsonally, I would simply this - just double the damage against structure and components.)

Quote

Pulse Lasers are being normalized to have their variances standardized between the different sizes. This is in preparation of them being tuned as we move toward launch. What this directly means is that for now, Small Pulse Lasers will have their damage increased to 3.4 and their heat reduced to 2.4. Large Pulse Lasers will have their damage increased to 10.6 but their heat is also increased to 8.5. This puts all 3 pulse lasers in alignment of having an approximate 1.25 variance for DPS and a 1.3 variance for HPS. Once this is implemented into the live servers, we will be looking at how they play out and making further adjustments as needed. (June 18th Patch)

What does this variance make a good number?
The SPL, MPL and LPL don't scale linearly in weight, crit size or range, so I am not sure what's the point.
Also, the LPL at 10.6 damage and 8.5 heat is pretty close to the PPC, but it requires to hold the beam on target and has a much shorter range. And it doesn't really look attractive compared to the LL either - that is after all 2 tons lighter, deals bareless damage, and has more range. It's only drawback is a bit longer beam duration.

Quote

Heat Damage at High Heat Levels
We now have a system in test that will apply damage to your Mech’s internal center torso if your Mech exceeds 150% of its tolerable heat level. While your Mech is above 150% heat, it will take damage over time. Once your Mech has cooled below 150%, it will no longer take heat damage. Be careful with that override button or high heat alphas when you’re near your max heat threshold.

This seems a bit generous.
A 17 DHS mech has a heat threshold of approximately 60 and dissipates 3 heat per second.
6 PPCs produce 48 heat. The second salvo adds another 48 after dissipating 12 heat. That's only 140 % above heat threshold.
And that is pretty much the hottest weapon configuration you can currently play (soon,the LPL will be a bit hotter). Even if you fire at your threshold, you go to 108 heat and would only stay there for 6 seconds.
I think this might be a bit too generous.

[Fut]

MaddMaxx, on 12 June 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

So take "shooting on the run" basically out of the game? That is about all hat system would do. Penalties, whatever they may be, need to be applied after the 100% threshold is breached. make them brutal and or devastating, but if I am running across an open area and Alpha a see target, only to be forced to slow down by 20-35(or more)%.

Sorry, gameplay and Fun killer.

Target Acquired: Time to ALPHA!!!
^^This is exactly why the game doesn't feel like Mechwarrior/Battletech most of the time.

[MaddMaxx]

Fut, on 12 June 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

All group firing?
I think this is a rather broad stroke, as I don't see any problems arising from firing 2SL at once.

I believe the simplest solution has been suggest many times already, and it's introducing a heat penalty a la TT.
This will allow people to customize their Mechs any way they want, but might make them think twice about firing 4+ PPCs (or 9 MLs...etc) at the same time - as that would put them into higher heat levels and render their Mech less effective (via targeting/movement penalties...etc). That Alpha will still be very useful, but only in certain situations.

Win-win-win.
Everybody is happy.

Sadly that system does not hurt the Jump Snipers who can still deal 50-60 damage and what ever heat they generate is moot, they just wait the required time and Jump again. Even the 150% overage is not an issue for almost all Boats, as to approach or exceed it, one has to get to 99.9%, then hit Override, and alpha for another 50.1% heat and then Power down. How long do you think it would take to get from 151% to 149% (penalty negated)?

Even 125% is to high imo. Same deal, get to 99, Alphas to 130% say, hit Power down and it will take >3 seconds to get below that damage threshold. How much damage can they apply in 3 seconds and not totally ****-up the game play for all involved.

101% and then damage is quick and severe (lose those Engine DHS's like mad). That will keep the Alpha strikers honest, or they pay the price.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 12 June 2013 - 11:21 AM.

[Sephlock]

MaddMaxx, on 12 June 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

Am I reading that first line wrong? Milt, in MWO, a PPC does 10 damage for 8 heat, a erPPC does 10 for 11 (current build)

I am totally unsure how you can even get 25 damage with a 10 pt weapon system.

Usually that kind of thing only happens with LRMs >_>.

[SirLANsalot]

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2442752

It is the best balanced system there is, and not open to abuse. When thinking of this system I also thought how can you break it, and thusly tweaked it farther till its an airtight system (unlike most people who think of a system but do not think of how can you break it).

The penalties are the same idea that comes from EvE with there stacking penlites on armor/shield hardeners. 2 is fine, but 3 the penalty becomes pretty steep, and the 4th is just pointless. The same thing here only for MWO but in the form of heat penlites for weapons, and then, only certain weapons that need it. This system also keeps clan tech in check as well at a later date, and more or less forces people to build diverse mechs and not all one gun mechs (aimed at assault mechs). Like the stalker, with my system you would have to go 3LL 3PPC just to attempt to do what you did before. You ARE getting penalized by having the LL and PPC's generate 1 extra heat each, but that is using the system as it was intended. PPC's and LL are two VERY different guns, and behave very differently, meaning the system is working as intended and is breaking up the boating of a single large energy weapon system (Medium lasers are meant to be boated but not the big boys).

Note: Read the WHOLE post, it dose address Awesome's and other mechs as well.

[kuangmk11]

MaddMaxx, on 12 June 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

So take "shooting on the run" basically out of the game? That is about all hat system would do. Penalties, whatever they may be, need to be applied after the 100% threshold is breached. make them brutal and or devastating, but if I am running across an open area and Alpha a see target, only to be forced to slow down by 20-35(or more)%.

Sorry, gameplay and Fun killer.

So don't alpha, try managing your heat instead or run enough sinks so you can safely alpha. Its really not fair to say some builds should be able to alpha without consequence while others get shafted.

[MaddMaxx]

Fut, on 12 June 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Target Acquired: Time to ALPHA!!!
^^This is exactly why the game doesn't feel like Mechwarrior/Battletech most of the time.

At a dead run, it is fine. If you can hit, while moving at full speed laterally, then your a good shot and should be rewarded.

If your jumping from behind cover, over and over, then you should be punished.

Quote

That is when the game doesn't feel like Mechwarrior/Battletech ALL of the time.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 12 June 2013 - 11:17 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

kuangmk11, on 12 June 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

So don't alpha, try managing your heat instead or run enough sinks so you can safely alpha. Its really not fair to say some builds should be able to alpha without consequence while others get shafted.

It is the manner in which that Alpha is used (a mix of weapons, all fired at the same time, is also an Alpha, it doesn't always mean 6 PPC's ffs.).

If you can't run around and be a good shot, but are forced to be a poptart, then what the **** is the point to a fast(ish) Mech build.

[Sign]

ssrms: Fine
Over the cap damage: A step in the "general" right direction.

Boating changes: The most horrendous idea possible has now been materialized. To hell with this game.

I still can't get my head around whyPGI won't even acknowledge the OTHER and BETTER ideas that have circulated for ages: Lower heat cap & higher cooling rate, or a PROPER DECENT HEAT SCALE.

This convoluted attempts at balancing only hurt things that cause no issue while not addressing the real problems: A fundamentally lackluster and flawed heat mechanic design.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Fut, on 12 June 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Target Acquired: Time to ALPHA!!!
^^This is exactly why the game doesn't feel like Mechwarrior/Battletech most of the time.

Yeah so ****** funny to get killed/crippled by one alpha strike if you are in light...

[MaddMaxx]

Sephlock, on 12 June 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Usually that kind of thing only happens with LRMs >_>.

They have been an ongoing concern have they not them LRM's

[Fut]

MaddMaxx, on 12 June 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Sadly that system does not hurt the Jump Snipers who can still deal 5-60 damage and what ever heat they generate is moot, they just wait the required time and Jump again. Even the 150% overage is not an issue for almost all Boats, as to approach or exceed it, one has to get to 99.9%, then hit Override, and alpha for another 50.1% heat and then Power down. How long do you think it would take to get from 151% to 149% (penalty negated)?

Even 125% is to high imo. Same deal, get to 99, Alphas to 130% say, hit **, it will take >3 seconds to get below that damage threshold. How much damage can they apply in 3 seconds and not totally ****-up the game play for all involved.

101% and then damage is quick and severe (lose those Engine DHS's like mad). That will keep the Alpha strikers honest, or they pay the price.

Well sort of.
If they start taking aiming/movement penalties at ~75% heat (and internal damage/heatsink-melts over 100%), they won't be too much of a problem, as the amount of time they'll have to sit there in order to get back down to a heat level with 0 penalty (ie. <75% so they don't have aiming problems) means that they're sitting ducks for much longer than they are right now.
This will force them to jump-snipe with fewer weapons (or they'll face the consequences of their targets finding them long before they can either jump again, or quickly move to another location) or they'll be slowly wrecking their Mech as each Jump-Alpha they make destroys heatsinks or other internal components.

This game just needs a "realistic" (for lack of a better word) heat system. As your Mech heats up, it's not as efficient anymore. Couple that with the idea of lower heat caps but higher heat dissipation, and I believe that a lot of the "problems" we're facing will clear themselves up.

[Also, the 150% heat nonsense is a complete joke. It's just way to high to even consider that it'll change gameplay at all.]

MaddMaxx, on 12 June 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

At a dead run, it is fine. If you can hit, while moving at full speed laterally, then your a good shot and should be rewarded.

If your jumping from behind cover, over and over, then you should be punished.

High heat is should be High Heat regardless of how it happened. Whether it's Alpha-Striking at full speed, or Alpha-Striking while jumping. Heat is heat, your Mech shouldn't magically handle one situation better than the other.

[Milt]

Sign, on 12 June 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

ssrms: Fine
Over the cap damage: A step in the "general" right direction.

Boating changes: The most horrendous idea possible has now been materialized. To hell with this game.

I still can't get my head around whyPGI won't even acknowledge the OTHER and BETTER ideas that have circulated for ages: Lower heat cap & higher cooling rate, or a PROPER DECENT HEAT SCALE.

This convoluted attempts at balancing only hurt things that cause no issue while not addressing the real problems: A fundamentally lackluster and flawed heat mechanic design.

kind of like JJ shake PGI couldnt balance a wobbly table

[Monsoon]

Kitane, on 11 June 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

1) Treat ER PPC and PPCs as a one type of weapon, ER LL and LL too.

2) Set the PPC limit to 2, 3 PPC + Gauss builds should already be affected by a penalty.

3) AC20 should be limited to one, with a significant heat penalty for firing two at once.

4) 150% heat limit is not going to have any noticeable effect on the game. Most builds will never get that high even if they tried.

This plus penalties for firing more then one Gauss, the background on Gauss Rifles was that it drew allot of power to fire, often making it impossible to fire any other weapon at the same time. While that may too much for the game, a penalty on two or more Gauss firing at the same time is viable. Also since heat isn't an issue with the Gauss, maybe a delay on all weapons fire, or a chance to explode would be better suited.

Edited by Monsoon, 12 June 2013 - 02:53 PM.