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#901 Victor Morson

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:25 PM

[redacted]

I understand, but can't endorse, this kind of anger. I'm not angry, I'm frustrated, because MW:O is so close to spot-on in so many ways, only to watch PGI jump around trying to make everyone happy (in the process making nobody happy) with horrible misunderstandings of how the game works.

They need a small, focused number of players from the community that they actually listen to. Sure the typical pug gamer might not like that (when I suggested it originally, I was practically burned at the stake for being a newbie hating elitist), but the bottom line is if you've got people who understand things helping you balance stuff - the newbies are likely to have a far better time, too, in particular if they put a little more time in to appreciate the changes.

This really goes back to PGI very badly needing an "in the trenches" community manager that interacts with us on a larger scale, in both collecting feedback and criticism. I'm not saying they should join this thread (no, that would be a terrible idea, it's wise if PGI steers clear of here unless they want to lock it with a statement), but a simple Twitter tweet along the lines of "We hear you on the heat feedback, we're going to reevaluate it!" would have probably shaved 30 pages of rage immediately.

Edited by Egomane, 12 July 2013 - 01:55 PM.
quote clean-up


#902 Arcturious

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:26 PM

Wasn't going to bother posting but finally decided to give it a shot anyway. Apologies for any ramble, errors, inconsistencies, lack of focus, grammatical errors, absurdities and other words in the English language. Also, posting from phone which often corrects words, using the loosest possible interpretation of the meaning "corrects".

Much of what is proposed is great - normalising SSRM spread, adding overheat damage (125% would be better) etc. which is why it's such a shame about the boating proposal.

First I'll address hardpoint size limitations. I really think people should stop asking for this. It's unlikely to happen at a purely business level. MW Tactics already has this system. They are both produced by IGP. It wouldn't surprise me if this was considered a core difference between the two games and as such never makes it into MWO.

Secondly, I think the solution must lie in tactical applications and not arbitrary, confusing, random, exponentially increasing differences between existing systems. There is no reason that makes sense to a gamer why certain weapons or items would function differently based on which mech, or how many of a type you equip.

Just take a step back and look at the system objectively and from a new players perspective. Also, reflect the core game design principles.

A ) This game has been developed from the ground up with the idea of skill based, pin point aiming. Accept that and move on.

B ) customisation and freedom to create your own builds is one if the greatest strengths in this game. The Mechlab is essential, undermining this system is bad juju.

C ) There are certain constants or underpinning systems around which the game is already balanced. These include tonnage, crit slots, heat, ammo, engine sizes (and therefore speed), hard point locations, general movement such as torso twist etc.

What this means is each time a balance change is required, it should be made to operate within the existing assumptions. Giving a particular mech variant slightly greater torso twist for example is acceptable, as it doesn't affect the underlying torso twist system. It instead simply tweaks a value in that system.

The proposed change to heat balancing is like changing the constant for gravity, but only if you are over 6' tall. Can you imagine if gravity on our planet changed based of random variables? You don't mess with gravity, you need to know certain truths in life or everything is quicksand. As soon as you mess about with these underpinning systems, you risk breaking free the tethers that hold our suspension of disbelief in place.

Look instead towards systems that enhance and add depth to your universe. PGI has the numbers, but many people have already commented on ways the current meta can be canceled. Parse the numbers and see patterns. For example. Statistically speaking, perhaps it is mechs with a top speed of greater than 80kph that consistently take out PPC Stalkers. What does this tell us from a balance perspective?

We need to somehow increase the viability of manoeuvrability vs turret shooting. The easiest way to do this is tie two existing systems together. Heat and movement.

The more heat you generate, the slower you move. This is a tactical balance. When you expose yourself to shoot, it is harder to get behind cover again as your heat gets higher. There are already numerous cues in game to telegraph this to the player. Heat sinks start hissing when under load. Heat sinks give off stream that opponents can see when they get hot. All this will provide people with the visual and audible cues needed to enhance and add depth to their tactical play.

The flow on effects will be numerous. People will start having to make choices. Do I take lots of weapons and risk becoming a turret? Or do I run cool and maintain tactical superiority? You even already have cool shot in game. A light can now choose to use cool shot tactically. Do they run in on that stalker, push their heat with alphas then run out using cool shot to regain speed?

This sort of solution doesn't take away player choice. You are still free to run any weapons you want. You can alpha as much as you want. Nothing has been changed in how underlying systems function. All that occurs is now you add a value proposition to the mix. Player choice is actually enhanced. Greater depth and interaction between systems is accomplished.

Solutions become more about organic tactics, team work and less about specific solutions to temporary problems. Systems can be balanced and fine tuned. Specific constructs such as this proposed boating solution can only ever entropically decay as values change over time.

The worst possible thing you can do in game design is add in specific variables that function differently under arbitrary conditions. You need to take a good look at your key principles and ask how you can leverage your existing assets, without compromising on the ideals this game was founded on.

Players need positive control over their play. We already have this in crit slots, tonnage, heat, engine size, ammo loadout etc. Taking away any of this control, is punishing player choice and doesn't add depth. It instead frustrates the player and their play style.

This sort of balanced system also means it will work for all variables. LRM boating, PPC boating etc. It is a scaling solution as it is based of already existing design limitations in the game.

Consistent, rationale, believable = Good

Random, arbitrary, disconnected = Bad

I highly doubt I've managed to get across my whole point as its more a concept for design principles than a pure mathematical solution. I've also been stewing on these thoughts for days now and still haven't been able to distill the essence of my thoughts, as it gets more complicated the more you think about it. I also haven't covered anywhere near the number if core features of the game, only what pertains to my argument. However hopefully the edges are enough to sketch in the basics of understanding.

Edited by Arcturious, 13 June 2013 - 06:32 PM.


#903 Shumabot

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:31 PM

View PostVictor Morson, on 13 June 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:


As I am loathe to point out.. no it doesn't.

There's really three 'mechs people use big guns on: Highlanders, Cataphracts and Stalkers. Maybe Atlas sometimes, Awesome others and the Victor is looking good.

Anyway, back to my point: You could run every "problematic" build we have now in MW4's system. It does nothing to solve this either. Honestly as I've said over and over the only reason I was in favor of hard point sizes was specifically to give PGI tools to add more flavor to variants, and it had nothing to do with boating.

Hell, 2 ER PPC & Gauss was the go-to-typical build for Novacats and BKs for the longest time. Some 'mechs are designed to boat and will always boat, just how it is. Your rose colored glasses might be clouding the fact that there were a ton of boats in MW4. Again, the HP system wasn't there to really stop boating, it was there to add flavor to the 'mechs and make one 'mech with energy hardpoints different than another, for example.

The only suggested "fixes" have to do with reticule inaccuracy based on the same number of guns fired, and it only applies if you think pinpoint damage is the one and only problem and not the fact that we have so much tonnage we're seeing what amounted to MW4 "Everybody in a Daishi" pub servers. You can nerf alphas all you want and that won't change.

EDIT: If they want to add more heat penalties, more power to them. I'd love an engine slowdown (including torso movement) at hotter temperatures and stuff. That would change the meta and would stop gimmick builds pretty much cold, without any of this oddball, horribly planned per-gun-heat-stacking stuff.

People would change their builds organically then because they are under performing, not because some totally arbitrary heat stacking system was added on that won't even effect builds who run high-synergy weapons instead of the same one.



THE SYSTEM I HAVE MENTIONED THREE TIMES NOW IN THIS THREAD AND TOLD YOU ABOUT IN PREVIOUS THREADS IS NOT THE ONE FROM MECHWARRIOR FOUR. I ACTUALLY EXPLICITLY SAY ITS NOT IN MY SECOND POST.

If you're going to troll me at least do it with something that doesn't imply you never read ANY OF MY POSTS.

Oh, and the cataphract vanished when the highlander came out (and double vanished with reticule shake). They're a joke and are explicitly worse than jagermechs. The victor is dead in the water due to being an 80 ton assault with low slung arms, it's a worse atlas. Your described clan mechs, and their loadouts all sound significantly WORSE than the popular boat builds in the current game. Victor, we've done this before. If you're not going to bring anything to the table don't show up.

Edited by Shumabot, 13 June 2013 - 06:38 PM.


#904 Simbacca

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:40 PM

Not a fan of the proposed changes to the Large Pulse Lasers. Because it seems to be punishing players who do mount the extra heatsinks to meet their build's needs.

EDIT: All my mech builds run a 1.05 or better heat efficiency for the record.

Edited by Simbacca, 13 June 2013 - 07:11 PM.


#905 OneEyed Jack

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:45 PM

View PostShumabot, on 13 June 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:



THE SYSTEM I HAVE MENTIONED THREE TIMES NOW IN THIS THREAD AND TOLD YOU ABOUT IN PREVIOUS THREADS IS NOT THE ONE FROM MECHWARRIOR FOUR. I ACTUALLY EXPLICITLY SAY ITS NOT IN MY SECOND POST.

Yeah! It's not! <_< It's made even worse by combining it with crit space. :(

And if you don't stop saying it's the same crappy system (instead of the obviously much worse system it is), he's going to jump up and down, then hold his breath until he passes out! :ph34r:

#906 Reported for Inappropriate Name

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:50 PM

this is not going to stop my 2 large laser, 1 ac/20 3 srm4's atlas, so i don't care.

and if i want to boat, i'll just slap some gauss on a catapult and go to work. Some say the cataphract or jager is better, but the cata is the best for dual gauss because they're both cockpit level and close together on the center torso no less, this means you can gut the wings and make a much more efficient ballistics boat. Sure it can't poptart but when every kill is 1-3 clicks away who needs jump jets.


I made a suggestion a long time ago that weapons should have energy draw, the more weapons recharging at once the longer they take to recharge the bigger the weapons the bigger draw they take on recharge (except cheap weapons like non gauss/ultra ballistics). this would be a good way to penalize large alpha, or boats of any size and you would still be able to set limits. his even has the potential to stop ac/20 boats being so effective with alpha because to put two ac/20's on a mech usually means a small engine. Small engine, less ready energy, powering big weapons, even big non gauss/ultra ballistics becomes difficult let alone with multiple. Of course the argument here is "but they're fusion engines", yes they are, but how much of that power output is harnessed by the engine and manufactured into useable energy for the weapons? If the argument is smaller engines mean slower mechs because of power output, then it should also stand for weaponry as well.
please pgi don't look at heat like your surge protector for solving balance problems. Coding wise don't do this


Posted Image

because you'll end up with this

Posted Image

Edited by Battlecruiser, 13 June 2013 - 07:08 PM.


#907 Victor Morson

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:55 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 13 June 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:


I wouldn't worry about his comments. Once the same builds are more or less still out there aka "nothing's really changed", then we'll see more threads spawn because it wasn't correctly dealt with. It's that simple. Let the clueless think they are right, and then they will cry because they didn't read into it in detail like most of us (even if our responses are not entirely rational or optimal).


The problem is instead of having it removed after those threads go up, they'll just endlessly make it horrible to better to horrible again for three to six months if trends hold, and ultimately leave it in a "Begrudging compromise." I would rather every single man hour from this stupid system be put into something relevant: They always say they don't have to adjust all the weapons, and using coders time to that instead of.. this, would be very very wise.

View PostShumabot, on 13 June 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

Oh, and the cataphract vanished when the highlander came out (and double vanished with reticule shake). They're a joke and are explicitly worse than jagermechs. The victor is dead in the water due to being an 80 ton assault with low slung arms, it's a worse atlas. Your described clan mechs, and their loadouts all sound significantly WORSE than the popular boat builds in the current game. Victor, we've done this before. If you're not going to bring anything to the table don't show up.


Bottom line is your system wouldn't impact boats at all. If 'mechs are designed to run 4 PPCs, they will still run them fine.

Also if you think the Victor is going to be bad because of the arms - despite being able to field twin Gauss with a wall of armor at Awesome 9M speeds on top of PPCs... welp. That 'mech is going to make every single argument about "Alpha heat" look outdated overnight, anyway.

Edited by Victor Morson, 13 June 2013 - 06:56 PM.


#908 Appogee

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:24 PM

Glad to see some boating is being addressed in this way. I don't think it's the best way to achieve it though.

1. 150% heat is WAY too generous. Anything over 110% should damage your Mech. 150% should be cooking off ammo and destroying Mechs.

2. Additional heat effects should work via a decrease of heat sink effectiveness, when multiple weapons are fired at once. This would be more realistic in spiking the heat up, and slowing down the cooling effect when boating.

#909 Asmosis

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:35 PM

while i agree the proposed suggestion is a bad idea, its certainly not going to kill the game. it only affects a few mechs (hunch and stalker mostly) so a lot of people are overreacting with the game dead/quit/qq posts.

#910 Shumabot

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:40 PM

Quote

Bottom line is your system wouldn't impact boats at all. If 'mechs are designed to run 4 PPCs, they will still run them fine.

Also if you think the Victor is going to be bad because of the arms - despite being able to field twin Gauss with a wall of armor at Awesome 9M speeds on top of PPCs... welp. That 'mech is going to make every single argument about "Alpha heat" look outdated overnight, anyway.


I get that it won't stop all boats in theory, but it stops all current instances of game balance destroying boating (except for the ac40 jager on one jager variant). It solves A1 spam, lrm 60, PPC spam in all of its actually game breaking places, and it severely limits what can use ac40. There are exceptionally few stock mechs that boat the kinds of weapon boating that is game breaking, most are clan which already has its own issues anyway. It's not a permanent fix for 100% of the games problems, but it fixes an awful lot of them, with boating just being one.

Also, the victor is going to be bad because 2 gauss rifles is only 30 damage and its arms are low slung. The jager can already do that and can ridge hump, while the highlander can do goose+3ppc for much more damage. The atlas can already stack PPCs and goose in a way that makes the victor kinda pointless.

#911 Vermaxx

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:53 PM

View PostBattlecruiser, on 13 June 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

this is not going to stop my 2 large laser, 1 ac/20 3 srm4's atlas, so i don't care


You sure? PGI gets to say exactly how many weapons of every type get to fire at once. The Atlas you mentioned has to be a D-DC (my preferred Atlas as well, though I put in Artemis6s and med lasers), and it comes default with two missile systems, two energy weapons, and one cannon.

So, they could easily define two large lasers as boating, because I betcha the rules will be defined along weapon TYPES and not just NUMBERS (otherwise the 4P he mentioned could just bring a couple small lasers and alpha constantly anyway). They could define the three missiles as boating, since it only defaults to two. They could define the entire build as boating and have every component in there add waste heat when you fire it.

I'm probably going over the top, but you see where they can go with this system. PGI, and PGI alone, decide what is boating for each mech, and what is ok. And they appear to be doing it based on default builds. Meaning any community-designed build is in jeopardy of waste heat.

Oh, and that fancy Community Jenner is most definitely going to get hit with a boating penalty, since Jenners only have four energy emitters modeled.

#912 Vermaxx

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:57 PM

View PostAsmosis, on 13 June 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

while i agree the proposed suggestion is a bad idea, its certainly not going to kill the game. it only affects a few mechs (hunch and stalker mostly) so a lot of people are overreacting with the game dead/quit/qq posts.

Two of my Catapults use four energy, the K2 is usually carrying four ERPPC. It cannot afford phantom heat while carrying four ERPPC. I don't snipe much, my aim isn't great. I carry the ERPPC so little sharts can't hug me and kill my damage potential.

So, if they want to do this, they should give my regular PPCs a way to fire point blank for full damage.

#913 Asmosis

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:05 PM

The single weapon over isnt a big deal, 4 ppcs is still less heat than 4 er ppcs currently which is a manageable build.

The ones that are severely affected are the ones using 2+ more than the limits.

Also @Shambot on what planet is the A1 considered an OP boat currently? matches certainly dont take place on that planet atm. The biggest threat on the battlefield right now is the highlander and that is unaffected from the limited infomation we have currently. 6 ppcs not a threat at all and very easy to dispose of (usually with a highlander or proper assult build).

Edited by Asmosis, 13 June 2013 - 08:08 PM.


#914 OneEyed Jack

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:21 PM

View PostShumabot, on 13 June 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Well as long as you're acknowledging it.

Oh, sure, I'm acknowledging it's both stupid and pathetic.

View PostShumabot, on 13 June 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Standard type is worthless.
Big energy load is what the vast majority of people use with either quad LL or quad ppc.
Mixed load is worthless.
Ballistic load is only used with AC40, and it's purely inferior to the jager with the same build and has vanished from even vaguely high elo.
1 big ballistic and 4 small energy backup is worthless.
Mixed load with 1 ballistic and 2 energy is worthless.

Oh look, you listed the only three K2 builds anyone ever uses, quad PPC and quad LL which most people think is exploitative and above the power curve for heavy mechs, and you listed the AC40 build which vanished a month ago since the jager does it better in every way and which is thought of as the stupidest and most exploitative build in the game.

Are you actually so full of **** as to try to suggest that people are actually complaining about 4xLL Cats? Please, oh, please defend that point. Or 4xPPC Cats that don't have the weight to carry enough HS to make them good? And if the rest of the builds are so bad, why do we need rules to take them away? Those were just builds I threw out off the top of my head, and they are all builds I've seen used on that or other chassis, successfully. And who gives a flying **** if som of them can also be done on the Jager and some people consider it better? You just want to fly a finger at those that like the Cat for flavor, or for the small side torsos, or maybe just already have one and don't want to buy a Jager to do the same thing, or maybe even just don't like the Jager for aesthetic reasons? Screw them, huh?

View PostShumabot, on 13 June 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Funny, that's all you listed too. You just pretended more builds were viable because the only way to support your theory is by playing pretend.

Hey, moron, newsflash; by your system (the one referred to), those couldn't be 4xPPC/LL. The option would be standard build with 2xPPC or the excitingly modified 2xLL. Along with 2 small energy and 2 MGs, those would be your choice of loadout. Considering Small Lasers are useless filler, Flamers even worse, TAG isn't even a weapon, and MPL are too heavy and too short-ranged to be actually viable, the 2 small energy are ML by default. Oooooohhhh.... choices!

View PostShumabot, on 13 June 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

What are you smoking? The choices are cut exactly in half. Under the LL is the med, med pulse, small, small pulse, flamer, and tag. The LL and above is the LL, Pulse LL, PPc, and ER PPC. The same goes with what is equivalent to and above and below the ac5. Same with the LRM 10 and SRM4 and their place in the middle of their respective weapon range. You have literally no leg to stand on here. None.

Are you going to defend the point that MPL, SPL, SL and Flamer are actually viable weapons? The MPL, maybe borderline, but the others never will be and everyone with a lick of sense knows it. That means 1 option. Big energy is slightly better with LL and 2 versions of PPC, the ERLL being a waste of heat and LPL being strictly worse than 2ML in every way except hard points.

View PostShumabot, on 13 June 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

You didn't cover anything. You lied about what is actually used in this game. You conflated what is possible with what is viable and therefore what is possible with what actually occurs. Possibility isn't reality.

No. You lie about what's used. The game isn't just played by the very top-end of 8-man premades, and if it was, it wouldn't be around long, because those few people couldn't support it. The game is played by a lot of casual players, who play however they want, not just in cookie-cutter builds. Even in the top side of the Elo curve there are plenty of people that play builds just because they're fun. Maybe not every game, but they sure play them. And it's the fun that keeps the game from getting stale. Viability means a lot of different things depending on the situation, and dismissing 90% of the player base and anything they might run that isn't min-maxed is just brain-dead. FFS, the Heavy vs the World was won by a Dragon! A mech someone like you would say isn't even viable.

View PostShumabot, on 13 June 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Except hardpoint sizes removes every exploitative mech build from the game instantly. SRM spam a1? Nerfed. Quad PPC stalker? Impossible. Tri PPC/goose highlander? Impossible. LRM 60 stalker? Impossible. Ac40 jager? Only available on one in four variants as opposed to being literally the only jager anyone uses. Will power gamers gravitate to the most powerful mech builds? Naturally. But that mech build won't universally be the 4 ppc stalker anymore, and even if there is a "most powerful variant" the distance between it and the rest will be greatly reduce. That directly increases the viability of other mechs and therefore directly increases the variety in the game.

I already spelled out for you why you're completely and hopelessly wrong on that point. If you're too dense to get it through you skull. Viability for a power-gamer will not be increased one iota. And viability for those that want variability will be moot, because they're playing for fun and if they lose the fun in favor of pigeonholes, they'll simply stop playing.

To be continued...

Edited by OneEyed Jack, 13 June 2013 - 08:21 PM.


#915 OneEyed Jack

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:22 PM

...Continued

View PostShumabot, on 13 June 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

If you could strawman any harder a lion and a tinman would show up at your doorstep. I haven't pigeonholed anything, I've fixed boating instantaneously, removed the majority of the games most exploitative builds, and by the very nature of those two acts I've encouraged a massive increase in visible diversity in this game. What I did was ensure that the 3 catapault builds you listed that no one in their right mind would use because the builds are idiotic would actually be viable and see some use. You keep falling into the logical fallacy of infinite choice, when presented with infinite options people don't make those decisions in a way that is representative of the whole of their choices. People follow the logical path that grants them the most specific advantage. The more options you present the more clear the path to the top is because the more the systems structure can be manipulated.

Strawman? Please quit bandying words you don't understand.
You've exactly pigeonholed literally everything. Fixed boating? There's nothing wrong with boating, ffs. It's a normal part of the canon, and just because you, personally, don't like it, doesn't mean it needs to be removed. The problem isn't boating. I'll repeat that, since I know you're a little slow on the uptake. The problem isn't boating. If there is a problem, which not everyone agrees on, then it's the advantages that boating offers. If you remove/alleviate those advantages, there's no reason to remove boating. But that doesn't fit into your tyrannical view that everyone should be limited to playing builds the way you want them to. God forbid we just remove the exploit, instead of the builds. And those Cat builds I listed wouldn't suddenly be viable with your harebrained scheme, they'd be impossible.

View PostShumabot, on 13 June 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

Convergence helps to make those weapons powerful, perhaps overly so, but it's not what makes boating the superior way to play. If you nerf those weapons you'll just see a return to boating UAC5's or boated streaks, or boated large lasers, or boated LRMs. Every single powerbuild this game has ever had has been a boat of some form. That's not because of convergence, and blaming it on convergence shows how little you've actually thought about this.

Wow. Divorced from reality much? If you hamper convergence, direct-fire boats lose the thing that makes them most dangerous. If you can't understand that, you have no place in this discussion. Hmmmmm...... :)
Moving right long, Streaks are not an issue, and will be even less of an issue soon. SRMs are not an issue because the new spread pattern reduces the focus (effective) removal of splash and, if they bump the damage up a bit, SRM boats will become viable without being overly powerful. Sounds perfect. LRMs don't mix well with other weapons. They can be used in small numbers as chase weapons, indirectly to snag assists, or as long-ranged back-up. LRM support mechs, on the other hand are meant to boat them, because they're largely trying to avoid more direct combat.

View PostShumabot, on 13 June 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

That only really nerfs the ac40 jager. The stalker can already fit 3 PPCss in a horizantal line on one torso side, and given the fact that you just nerfed everything else in the game simultaneously it's not really very hurt by it. Hell, it could just fire them in sets of two or three and avoid the nerf entirely. This also does nothing to fix boating since that stalker with its boated PPCs is still better than a stalker with a mixed loadout in every way.

OK, first, they are not in a horizontal line. One is in the torso and considerably lower than the 2 in the arm. Without instant pinpoint convergence, they would often hit 2 separate locations. Or those in one section or the other might even miss, if you don't aim center of mass to account for the variance, especially at any noticeable range. And if you break up the shots into 2-3 weapon groups you've already removed the primary problem those looking at the mech from a balance perspective have! But of course, since your goal is pigeonholing, rather than balance, you wouldn't see that.

At this point let me point out that I'm of a mind that PPCs are not currently balanced, though not horribly out of whack. They received buffs to make them playable pre-HSR, but were never re-tuned post-HSR. I think to make them a balanced weapon, those buffs need to be dialed back or removed, entirely. I consider that a different subject.

View PostShumabot, on 13 June 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

Yes, nerfing the awesome more while exchanging the ac40 jager for the ac40 cat is truly bringing variety to a game with 4 viable builds in it. You exchanged one build for another, did nothing to the other three, and nerfed the entire game simultaneously while adding another feature that will drive new players away.

I'm sorry, but wtf are you even talking about? I never mentioned the Awesome or anything that would impair it more than anything else. And switching the Cat and Jager? Huh? Because some people might prefer the Cat? Or because some people might prefer the Cat for some ballistic builds again, due to closer starting convergence points, even though they'd be trading off other advantages, which might actually create more diversity? Seriously dude, you're not even making sense at this point.

View PostShumabot, on 13 June 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

You're so good at this. So incredibly good at this.

Glad you're finally able to admit that.

View PostShumabot, on 13 June 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

Your solution is bad. You're ability to understand my solution is bad. You're capacity to understand how the mechanisms in this game interact are bad. You are only capable of repeating the same illogical mantra and hitting me with ad hominim. You are not worth talking too. You are the EXACT REASON this game is going to crash and burn.

Oh, I understand the **** you're trying to sling just fine. I'd venture to say I understand it a whole lot better than you, since I can see why it's so obviously wrong. But you won't see that, because you're not looking for a balanced game that lots of people will find to be fun. You're looking to force everyone into your definition of what the game should be.

#916 Reported for Inappropriate Name

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:23 PM

View PostVermaxx, on 13 June 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:


bla bla bla



yes because i fire all my weapons constantly at the same time the time :>

Edited by Battlecruiser, 13 June 2013 - 08:24 PM.


#917 Shumabot

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:31 PM

:edit: Hah! You had to do the same thing I did.

See what I mean? The forum just can't handle long quote strings without breaking down. Also, we've had our bit. You're mad and are just repeating what you said in the last post more aggressively. I'll pull out one specific example, since you're not reading or responding to my post. You're reading and responding to a caricature of it.

Quote

I'm sorry, but wtf are you even talking about? I never mentioned the Awesome or anything that would impair it more than anything else. And switching the Cat and Jager? Huh? Because some people might prefer the Cat? Or because some people might prefer the Cat for some ballistic builds again, due to closer starting convergence points, even though they'd be trading off other advantages, which might actually create more diversity? Seriously dude, you're not even making sense at this point.


You stopped convergence, which specifically means that the mechs with the most horizontally spread hardpoints are the most effected. That's the awesome. This doesn't even touch the highlander since its 3 PPCs are located in the same tiny area, it barely effects the stalker, which can say the same. It makes the awesome worse. Congrats, you nerfed the awesome.

As to the jager/cat ballistic, that's the same thing. Convergence means almost nothing to the cat due to the tight grouping of its two ballistic slots, it's very damaging to the jager which are more than twice as far apart. The jagers ac40 will fade back into obscurity while the cats will come back. When the jager came out the cat faded away.

You didn't "increase" peoples options, you just traded one power build for an identical one that gets around your solution. You also did nothing to address any of the non pinpoint based boat builds in the game. The LRM 60 sure doesn't give a damn.

We're done. You don't consider the run on effects of what you're saying because you are convinced you're correct. You refuse to consider my ideas because you're convinced I are wrong. In your very first post you strawmanned me and were a troll, you haven't stopped doing it yet. Do it alone.

#918 Lindonius

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:05 PM

Posted Image

Edited by Lindonius, 13 June 2013 - 09:09 PM.


#919 Evrik

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:34 PM

I support homeless bills solution.

#920 OneEyed Jack

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:40 PM

View PostShumabot, on 13 June 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

You stopped convergence, which specifically means that the mechs with the most horizontally spread hardpoints are the most effected. That's the awesome. This doesn't even touch the highlander since its 3 PPCs are located in the same tiny area, it barely effects the stalker, which can say the same. It makes the awesome worse. Congrats, you nerfed the awesome.

You didn't "increase" peoples options, you just traded one power build for an identical one that gets around your solution. You also did nothing to address any of the non pinpoint based boat builds in the game. The LRM 60 sure doesn't give a damn.

I'm not going to go look to find out if I misspoke or you misunderstood, but I never intended to remove convergence entirely. That would be stupid. What I've advocated is slowed convergence, so that pinpoint damage is still possible, but requires the shooter to make themselves more vulnerable, as well. If they don't take that time, they get spread hits and possible misses. It's kinda like CoF, but without the random, making it more controllable. If the hits are spread, it removes the reason those builds are considered "cheesy", but leaves them able to hit hard.

It would affect the Highlander in a different way, with it's PPCs in one torso, since they still need to converge to hit the circle. Quick snap-shots wold be off to the side at some distance, and the Gauss would still be converging separately. You might be able to gauge off-set at current convergence, or you might not, but it would take some skill and some mental calculation, and it still wouldn't put the Gauss on target. And if they can manage to land the PPCs, well... it's an Assault mech. The Stalker would be affected similarly. You might snap-shot some of the guns, but you wouldn't get more than 2 in the same location, and would have a fair chance of missing with some at any range. As for the Awesome, I don't know what you're smoking, but the Awesome has most of it's energy hardpoints in the torso, except the -8T which trades for more arm-mounted weapons.

If someone wants to field an LRM60.... so what? LRMs have several counters, and a mech carrying that many isn't doing much else. They already have distinct weaknesses any many people, including myself, are trying to get them balanced a little different so they cause less coring and more of a sandpaper effect. Fixing the convergence issue doesn't fix all the weapons, and I never suggested it did. What it does is address the advantage of boating in the cases where boating is, arguably, a problem. Weapons would still need to be balanced.





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