1263 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Solis Obscuri, on 27 June 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

I know. Teasing.

I miss the days of CB sometimes.

But on a serious note, I do think that damage-spreading ACs would be boat-anchors, regardless of the fluff-descriptions.

Right now the most dangerous boat is really the AC/40 boat, and soon it'll be possible to have AC/80 boats, and UAC/40 boats. They need it. Besides we'll have less complaints about AC/20 hit registration because we'll have smaller shells that find it more difficult to hit perfectly between a spider's side and center torso only to 'not register' because it can't decide which one to do the damage to.

Not to mention they'd sound more wicked.

Between that and the dispersion, we'd be pushing more gauss boats (easy to deal with; always have XL engines, slow, lumbering, low ammo, highly explosive walking suicide cannons) and laser boats. Combined with the raising heat threshold per heatsink removal and a standardized heat system would make alpha striking with them difficult and anything beyond 3 PPCs tough to manage. Even then PPCs would have dispersion (hit CT, splashes LT and RT. 10 - 6 to CT, - 2 to LT, RT = 10 damage total disbursed).

People would have to learn how to play rather than a point and click adventure.

I think a fight should last more than 5 seconds. The greatest fights and fun I've had in this game were the ones that lasted nearly 3 minutes where I came out of it with 3 or more missing limbs, no armor anywhere, and lots of critical components and the other guy lost a lot more than that.

Check out the fights described in the second link of my signature near the bottom (in quotes). That's the game I played in closed beta. That's the kind of game I'd like to play when I play MWO. That encounter now is once in a blue moon in a mere shadow of what I wanted, due to people being able to pump out 30 PPCs back to back with an incredible alpha system, or mechs abusing highly pinpoint damage on top of a threshold system that could allow an inner sphere mech to wipe out an entire fleet of 70 tabletop clan mechs in less than 1 minute.

[Solis Obscuri]

Koniving, on 27 June 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Right now the most dangerous boat is really the AC/40 boat, and soon it'll be possible to have AC/80 boats, and UAC/40 boats. They need it. Besides we'll have less complaints about AC/20 hit registration because we'll have smaller shells that find it more difficult to hit perfectly between a spider's side and center torso only to 'not register' because it can't decide which one to do the damage to.

I put up a suggestion here as an alternate to the heat penalty system. I think it's more comprehensive in dealing with the root problem of the high-alpha builds.

Edited by Solis Obscuri, 27 June 2013 - 04:32 PM.

[Koniving]

Solis Obscuri, on 27 June 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

I put up a suggestion here as an alternate to the heat penalty system. I think it's more comprehensive in dealing with the root problem of the high-alpha builds.

Very similar to Homeless Bill's system found here. Both them mainly focus on creating non-pinpoint alpha strikes which addresses the root symptom of high alpha builds -- rapid and unfair player death. I wouldn't call it a fix to the cause, as the cause is we can do too many alpha strikes in the first place. There's absolutely no risk, and it's because our thresholds are so high.

Also on there is much more detail on my own ideas. Alone, your idea or Bill's, or even mine, are merely bandages and splints to a broken balance. That's not to say they fail to be better than the band-aid proposed by Paul. However, if a load system is combined with removing the rising heat threshold per heatsink mechanic that allows multiple alpha strikes of superbly high heat builds and other screwed up thermal mechanics in favor of something that actually requires heat management then we're bound to get something much better.

----------

My arguments inspired some people to test the numbers I gave based on Forest Colony and standard heatsinks, then the simple math associated with "1.4" heatsinks.

The results only further emphasize how broken the current heat mechanics are.

Phaesphoros, on 27 June 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Hm I remember how "high" the heat threshold is from my experience with the 4 ERPPC AS7-RS. It's not that high at all, i.e. this build is very much useless as it's far too hot.

Went to testing grounds to support my memories, dropped on Frozen City. 21 DHS (yeah great the STK can pack 2 more). First alpha: 57 % heat, second alpha: shutdown. An ERPPC currently produces 11 heat, therefore this test suggests the heat threshold is (w/o elite skills) at about 77.
Read on why this test was crap. This post will also go into Patch Feedback.

Then I stripped all external heat sinks and dropped again. First time on Caustic; two (2 only) ERPPCs raised heat from 6% to 49%. I already guessed there might be issues with the environmental temperature, therefore I dropped again, landing on Alpine. Little did I know...
First 2 ERPPC salvo raised heat from 0% to 33%. That didn't match with the numbers from Caustic, so I waited for the heat to return to 0 % and the moment it hit 0% I fired again (2 ERPPCs). Heat went up to 43%. (Several tests show the same number.)
Then let the heat return to 0% and wait some longer. Two ERPPCs now raise the heat to 33%, which suggests there is a NEGATIVE HEAT % that is not displayed.

Redid the test with 11 external heat sinks, same methodology as above. Result is: 33% heat increase from 2 ERPPCs.

This suggests a heat threshold of 51 w/o external DHS, and 67 w/ 11 external DHS. With these two data points and assuming a constant increase of the heat threshold for every external DHS added, this suggests an increase of 1.45 per external heat sink. The absolute heat threshold w/o external heat sinks matches the formula 30 basic + 10 internal * 2.0 within a slight error margin.


Then I went into online matches. Little did I know...
In online matches, the heat indicator seems to be highly inaccurate. I have mastered the AS7-RS, therefore I have the elite heat skills. When firing 2 ERPPCs, the heat goes from 0 % (with the methodology described above) to something between 20 % and 24 %, sometimes spiking to 28 % or higher for a fraction of a second. Similar things happen when starting to walk, where the heat is at 2 % from walking. All 4 ERPPCs raise the heat from 2 % to something between 52 % and 54 %, sometimes only 50 %, sometimes with a 1 second buildup of 2-4 % after the heat has already been increased by the shots. In every case, the dissipation doesn't start instantly but with a 1-2 s delay, unlike on testing grounds.
This suggests a heat threshold between 92-110 (2 ERPPC tests) or 81-85 (4 ERPPC tests). As I can definitely NOT fire two salvos of 4 ERPPCs, the threshold must be lower than 88.

I removed external heat sinks (and put in a gauss with 3 tons of ammo -- lol MORE CHEESE). Frozen City, same methodology. 2 ERPPCs: 0 % -> 31 % heat
4 ERPPCs: 0 % -> 64 % heat
(with the same weird effects like spiking and heat buildup)
This suggests a heat threshold of something between 71 and 69.

If we assume that the 2-ERPPC-tests w/ 11 external DHS are somehow buggy, and use an average of about 83 for this case, subtract a heat threshold of 70 for 10 internal DHS, we end up with 1.18 per external DHS.
If we assume that the 4-ERPPC-tests w/ 11 external DHS are somehow buggy, and use an average of about 100 for this case, subtract a heat threshold of 70 for 10 internal DHS, we end up with 2.72 per external DHS.

Let's use the formula (30 basic + 10 internal * 2.0 + 11 external * 1.4) * 1.2 elite skill then we end up with a heat threshold of 60 (no external DHS) or 78 (11 external DHS), respectively.

This. is. weird.

Edit: Patch Feedback thread

[Solis Obscuri]

Koniving, on 27 June 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

My arguments inspired some people to test the numbers I gave based on Forest Colony and standard heatsinks, then the simple math associated with "1.4" heatsinks.

The results only further emphasize how broken the current heat mechanics are.

Whoa...

[AndyHill]

The gauss is definitely not a suicide weapon, they are still highly effective. And if all other weapons are alpha-nerfed we will se an emergence of gauss boats that are also somewhat sensitive to damage, so the battles will be even shorter still.

Also regarding alphas in CB; I also remember SLAS boats and gauss cats etc., not chain firing. Chain firing is simply such an enormous gimp to your effectiveness that the only time to do that is if you can absolutely with certainty finish off an enemy with a slight brush. Even then an alpha strike is preferable just to make sure, unless there are enemies nearby and you really can't take the heat.

If you can't pinpoint alpha effectively, just take smaller weapons or replace weapons with heat sinks. I think it's some form of a misunderstanding that hot 'mechs require heat management during battles but are otherwise somehow effective. In reality I believe that heat management is done in the 'mechlab, if you are holding off from firing because of excessive heat buildup you have already overheated and your opponent is now taking advantage of the failure. If that happens too often for comfort, you need to do some heat management in the 'mechlab. That's why and especially due to the existence of weapons like AC/20 and Gauss I strongly believe that any attempts to limit pinpoint alphaing with heat will fail.

To make the balance better in MWO we need less heat and more and finer grained penalties for running hot.

[Rigiroth]

The PPC threshold should be two with an exception added in for Stalker Variants mounting three in Stock. Additionally, the over all cap should be lower with exceptions added in for mechs that need them. For instance, MLs should be something like 4 with an exception added in for the 4P.

[fil5000]

Steemship, on 29 June 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

The PPC threshold should be two with an exception added in for Stalker Variants mounting three in Stock. Additionally, the over all cap should be lower with exceptions added in for mechs that need them. For instance, MLs should be something like 4 with an exception added in for the 4P.

Or, you know, just lower the heat cap and up dissipation so you literally CANT fire six PPCs without a shutdown and high ROF weapons get a boost vs high heat long cycle time weapons. The whole "let's apply heat penalties based on an arbitrary definition of what someone somewhere has decided is acceptable" thing remains a terrible idea that will just make things more confusing for everyone.

[Rigiroth]

fil5000, on 29 June 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Or, you know, just lower the heat cap and up dissipation so you literally CANT fire six PPCs without a shutdown and high ROF weapons get a boost vs high heat long cycle time weapons. The whole "let's apply heat penalties based on an arbitrary definition of what someone somewhere has decided is acceptable" thing remains a terrible idea that will just make things more confusing for everyone.

But making it impossible to dissipate heat in a reasonable fashion is just as terrible.

[fil5000]

Did you miss the part where I said "up the dissipation"? A reduced heat cap and increased dissipation would kill the big alpha from six ppc/ll stalkers and force staggered fire without layering a new mechanic on the top, and while upping the relative effectiveness of weapon combos with lower heat and faster cycle time. It's not making it impossible to dissipate heat it a reasonable fashion, quite the opposite.

[AP514]

HERE is the EASY FIX for going over heat................Just as if you had hit the OVER-RIDE button.....If your HEAT is not below the HEAT threashold in the same time as if you hit the OVER-RIDE button you start to take DAMAGE...

SIMPLE EASY FIX

OMG ---- PGI stop over thinking things

[DeaconW]

Or maybe we should just eliminate pinpoint convergence before we jack completely with the heat system.

[BlackDrakon]

WTB viable SRM's, that will autonerf ppc's and all the sniping weapons. nuff said.

[Ingvay]

The heat penalty threshold needs to be lower! 110% -125% max!

150% won't make enough of a difference for some boaters. At 110% ...the first time they overide and hit 110% and blow off an arm of explode their CT.... they'll think twice about their build.

[SolCrusher]

Just don't by the Phoenix package until they fix the game Problem solved

Honestly I don't see the issues everyone is complaining about. AC40 jagers and PPC stalkers would just change. On no you just took away my dual ac20. Well then I'll just replace on AC20 for 2 ERPPCs, cut my ammo in half and now I'm still striking with an AC40. No longer ammo dependent, and can continue ravaging the battlefield. Sure the projectiles are a bit different, but I already play a catapract with and AC20 and 2 ERPPCs. I run it similar to the Gauss and PPC phract.

So want to limit the number of weapons and trigger auto heat build up? Thank you for making me use heat management, so now my stalker is loaded with 3 PPCs, 3 Large lazers, and I can effectively fight light mechs again.

I say messing with the heat system and putting artificial caps on weapons which will be not intuitive to new players, but this movement modifier crap is gonna make a fun game a load of garbage.

I'm still contemplating the Phoenix package, but I'm feeling like this game is just garbage now anyways so why should I bother.

[Philadelphia Collins]

what happened to this? you posted it before your break now your back and it's still at least 2 weeks out? seriously get your **** together pgi

[AndyHill]

I think they just did, since apparently the failed alpha-heat penalty system is being reconsidered and the overheat damage was applied in a form that almost makes me feel the feedback in this thread was taken into account.

[Nooee]

In my view the heat penalty has had no effect. The Movement Penality is one of the WORST implications yet.
Not only have you destroyed the Heavy Metal with the jump jet nerf, you have nerffed its movement further with the limitations of its movement. Very Disappointed in the direction that this game has gone. With each patch you have to learn to play the game over with the new limitations that you are imposing just to please a few trolls that do not like this or that.

If any thing the light mechs should not be able to mount assault weapons. The movement limitations have placed the Light on a higher playing field now that heavies and assaults cannot freely transverse the maps. When a mere bump in the map causes your mech to stop you are dead meat for any mech that is on higher ground.

But go ahead and continue to introduce new features and fixes for things that people complain about. It will make no difference as the player base is falling.

The ELO system is still not balanced, neither are the weapons. Now in game if you do not have at least PPC's and gauss your dead.

This game is no longer a pleasure to play with the people that are grifing the game and using the cheese build, hacks and aim bots.

You have made one cosmetic change to the Quickdraw with the JJ. But the hit boxes detection on the mechs are still not registering.

I have over 12k games played and I see myself playing less and less each day. Mainly due the the so called fixes that have been implemented in each successive patch. The deterioration of the game play will bring less revenue as players leave for a better balanced game.

Thanks for trying but as I see this it is on a downward spiral.
Fix the game balances or not your choice.

Edited by Nooee, 03 July 2013 - 03:16 AM.

[Milt]

this patch to me is very good. jj shake reduced, heat penalty introduced, and movement penalty introduced. pgi didnt go ******* crazy like they did with the jj shake and still implement needed or wanted changes for testing and tweaking. heat penalty still needs more work, its not really accomplishing enough atm. (it didnt break anything, good job). terrain affecting movement is a nice feature, but the forward momentum being stopped by inconsequential things and the way jj dont provide any forward momentum need to be tweaked. the jj shake is now at a bearable level (very nice). and all of these things happened while paul was on vacation. we should now see a quicker and more focused sprint to the release date. This games future is looking brighter all the time.

[Teralitha]

You should still lower the heat cap. You think it will nerf all weapons.... no, It will balance all weapons. The game will be fair and balanced again just like it was before double heat sinks.... (and before upgrades) You know.... back when only skill mattered? Its not like you have to make a huge reduction. Just a moderate one.

Edited by Teralitha, 04 July 2013 - 04:45 PM.

[beartraps]

Well were is that colour blind mode or how-a-bout a way to adjust the hud.Posted a year ago We are concerned you said.Posted to support and 'I play console games and they dont do it there so I am not concerned'Well I guess it should be a concern ,first large portion of male population is coloor deficent.Second ALL my crysis huds and Battlefield colors are custimizable .Your game is based on the Cry engine.As well what are you working on no 3D,not real importanr buy it is part and parcel of Crysis.No directX 11 support that ticker has been in the hud for a long time as well.Now no hate feedback LOVE the game but my team mates are getting tired of me not firing in a melee or hitting them cause I can not tell whom is whom.I guess I could get a modder to let me have hud color adjustment,Well let us see some REAL action ?Ball is in your court,dont fumble it. Bear