95 replies to this topic

[Precentor_Apollyon]

This thread needs to be purged by the holy inquisition!

[GrantLF]

Melcyna, on 01 July 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

Technically both are fantasy if you gauge on believable level, the only difference is that 40K is blatantly doing it and smack the convention silly having no qualm that they are being silly except on the odd occasions where they bizarrely tries to appear sensible ... and of course fails.

BT on the other hand tries to pretends that it has some semblance to our world more times than 40K... and fall FLAT doing it since it just makes things even sillier as none of their facet, be it tech, or politic makes much sense at all from our world practical point of view. That includes the neurohelmet and using the mechwarrior 'sense of balance' to help the mech... unless u can find a human with balance mechanism on their body tuned to a multi dozen ton mass and suspended several meters high up from the ground.

There is a good reason why aircrafts are choke full of instruments that tells the plane's attitude, and why pilots can lose their bearing and fail to know the plane's exact attitude when they have no plane of reference (low visibility is one of the most common cause), which is also why every pilots are trained to fly with just instrument information if necessary.

Yes I know that most of the technology in BT does not exist, all I was saying was that the way the universe is presented and explained to you is more believable, in that there's a reason that everything happens in the universe in BT.(perhaps I didn't give a very good BT example.) I know that both universes are fantasy, I mean we don't actually have giant stonking machines of war IRL, but that's why BT is so cool. BT is presented in such a way that you can see how things happen. (like comstar's "pay your bills or you're screwed) All the different factions and their locations and how they have come to be is explained in a more sensible manner, of course using technology present. Of course there are things in both universes that are highly unlikely to be, but then what's the fun of them then? To be invested with a fictional universe, and learning the lore and the way things work in that universe is interesting and cool and not just outright silly enough for someone to just go "nah that couldn't happen" and instead explaining how something as outlandish as whatever made the person say that is explained. Then the person could possibly see how and why that happened, it's all part of the fantasy of giant metal killing machines, which is outlandish in itself but again BT is a world that is made to make you feel invested in it and gaint mechs are a part of that world, and why question their existence? So it could be answered and you could see why. Here's a pretty good source of information if you want to know nearly anything about BT. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page I hope this clears it up, and once more I like both 40K and BT. Sorry about all the words, and if I repeated myself.

[Melcyna]

I played through the old table top before i stopped playing it along with many other table top games... so rest assured, i am not in shortage of information for BT though i no longer have access to my flat mate's old magazines and books (not that i intend to read them again).

Sarna is like a basic wiki information for BT, you get more information out of the publications including technical readouts etc...

And like most soft sci fi materials, these technical readout lore will make anyone with an inkling on the subject cringe since naturally most of them have more holes in their logic or explanation than a termite infested tree.

40K has the same problem with their materials, but done in an over the top style instead that depending on the race in question ranges from being funny to absurd.

[C E Dwyer]

James The Fox Dixon, on 14 June 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

BattleTech beats TheftHammer 40k any day of the week. FASA did their best to create new ideas in their universe while GW steals everything that isn't nailed down and claims its theirs.

Fasa openly stole all their core mech designs, renamed them and thought they would get away with it.

I was connected with the gaming retail industry for years, I sold battle droids the fore runner of Battletech, Blackmore the fore runner of Dungeons and Dragons, White Bull, Red Moon the fore runner of Runequest plus traveler, space opera etc etc, I sold game workshop when GW just made 4 boxed board games which were Apocolips, Dr Who, Judge Dred, and I think a board game version of M. Moorcocks Stormbringer.While some of the items they did were painfuly obvious where the influences came from I can't think of a single instance of theft of intellectual property.

Orkz = orc's maybe, who do you sue, first mention of Orc in fantasy literature are the ones in Tolkiens books written mostly between world wars 1 and 2, gygax was using the name orc and so were the creators of Runequest, also Steve Jackson games in the seventies

Even Orc tolkien took from the Latin adopted into Old English Orcus who is a diety of the Underworld, and is also a race Orcean mentioned in beowulf.

Now I'm no supporter of GW they stifled fantasy game creativity from a position of financial strength then drove up the prices, much like Sony do in the electronic and music world.

But to attach the title of Thieves to G.W is wrong and ironic considering which message boards its being said on

[Adridos]

Cathy, on 02 July 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

Fasa openly stole all their core mech designs, renamed them and thought they would get away with it.

But to attach the title of Thieves to G.W is wrong and ironic considering which message boards its being said on

You know what you've just said couldn't be more wrong?

[Gladewolf]

Adridos, on 02 July 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

You know what you've just said couldn't be more wrong?

While I think the assessment of FASA might be a little harsh, it is accurate. The theft(or rights dispute) Cathy is referring to also happened more than 10 years before you were born, so I can understand why you wouldn't have any knowledge of it's occurrence. While I wasn't in the retail business I DID experience the Vermillion 1, Skull 1, Wasp, Phoenix Hawk, Jetfire identity crisis. I personally suspect it had more to do with a lazy artist double and triple dipping on their work than actual intended theft on the part of all of the involved companies.

[Adridos]

They paid for the designs to the guys who held the rights for them...

What layers (did I meantion Harmony Gols was founded by lawyers?) say is irrelevant to me. They had the same right to use those designs as HG and if the courting system was designed for fairness, none of this unseen/reseen mess would have ever happened.

P.S. I'd like to ask what led you to the "happened 10 years before you were born" argument? I mean, WW2 happened before either of us were born and yet we both know about it.

[Gladewolf]

Adridos, on 02 July 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

They paid for the designs to the guys who held the rights for them...

What layers (did I meantion Harmony Gols was founded by lawyers?) say is irrelevant to me. They had the same right to use those designs as HG and if the courting system was designed for fairness, none of this unseen/reseen mess would have ever happened.

P.S. I'd like to ask what led you to the "happened 10 years before you were born" argument? I mean, WW2 happened before either of us were born and yet we both know about it.

Firstly, I mentioned that the assessment was accurate but a bit harsh. Harmony Gold and FASA were only 2 of MANY companies involved, you may have noticed that I also eluded to the involvement of Hasbro (Jetfire is from Transformers), but the fact remains that very few of the core 3025 mech designs are FASA originals as they can be found in several different works of Anime. As to your P.S. while I know many facts about WW2 I would certainty not presume to know more about it than someone who WAS there.....like the way Cathy was actually involved in the gaming industry during the period in question.

[Daetrin Voltari]

Comparing 40K and BattleTech just doesn’t make much sense to me. How many joules is a Lascannon? What about a small laser? Who runs faster, an Elemental or a Space Marine? The numbers are arbitrary and 1-on-1 comparison just doesn’t make much sense. In universal terms, while I don’t care for 40K I have to give it to the Space Marines. Not only are their ships more combat capable than your average jumpship/warship, not being reliant on solar sails of all things, Space Marines don’t seem to have much problem with glassing the surface of a planet that isn’t under the Emperor’s control. Victory, Space Marine, and may they enjoy their smoldering, chaos filled, hell-hole.

As for the HG/FASA discussion, let’s add a little specificity here.

During the creation of Battledroids/BattleTech FASA contracted with Twentieth Century Imports, a model importation company who was in turn contracted with Tatsunoko Productions (not Studio Nue). They imported Nichimo and Nitto model kits, which is why two of the Nitto kits (Shadowhawk/Dougram and Griffin/Roundfacer) were included in the Battledroids box. That information was provided by FASA Studios to the U.S. District Court for Northern Illinois and really isn’t open to dispute. Under Japanese law T.C.I. only had rights to produce box art and advertising for the purpose of importation of model kits, leading Jordan Weissman to ask T.C.I. to contact Tatsunoko to get them to extend the license. Unfortunately T.C.I. was already out of business by 1996 and there was no paper trail to prove the claim. It is possible something else could have been dug up, but since FASA and Harmony Gold settled out of court, and that settlement is covered by mutual NDA, it’s a moot point.

@James The Fox Dixon. You say that FASA contracted with Studio Nue for the rights to Macross and I’d really like to see some proof of that. If you have information I don’t I’d love to see it, but this directly contradicts FASA Studio’s claims in court. The only contract FASA seems to have had with Studio Nue was for the creation of original art for the Japanese edition of BattleTech, a necessity as FASA never had nor intended to have any claim on the Macross art in Japan. In fact this art was deliberately different from the original Macross, Dougram, and Crusher Joe art so as not to infringe on domestic copyrights. Nobody would have contracted with Studio Nue for the Macross designs in the ‘80s because everyone believed that Tatsunoko Productions owned the international rights under Japanese law. It took a 2002 Japanese High Court ruling to change that. Both FASA Studios and Harmony Gold entered into their respective deals with the belief that they were acting in good faith and had a legitimate claim on the Macross designs. During the ’96 court case Harmony Gold had a clear paper trail establishing their claim and FASA Studios didn’t, but we will never know who would have won because FASA was smart enough to realize that even a win would have bled them dry. Neither side covered themselves in glory during this remarkable foul-up.

@Gladewolf, Hasbro wasn’t really involved when the compost hit the compressor. The change from Jetfire to Skyfire happened several months before Robotech aired and, given production times, the decision was probably made before Harmony Gold ever got started on Robotech. Hasbro bought the import rights to one specific toy, likely without knowing that it was part of a franchise in competition with their partner Takara, which was already looking at the possibility of airing Transformers in Japan. They were pretty much just buying anything that looked cool. Since they had spent money on the toy there wasn’t much question of them using it in the U.S., but they changed the visual design before more than a single commercial was made.

@Cathy, While Battledroids started with no original designs I wouldn’t say FASA “stole” anything by licensing them. No more than Transformers “stole” Diaclone by licensing them from Takara. The designs may not have been original, but they were iconic, as evidenced by the fact that people are still yelling about them nearly 30 years later.

A selection of resources: Because I try to never make a claim I can’t back up.
http://terrania.us/hg-fasa/ (legal paperwork showing FASA's claim of licensing from T.C.I.)
http://www.terrania....ech-second.html
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Battledroids (Images of the included model kits)
http://www.gearsonli...ies/battletech/ (Images of the Studio Nue designs)
http://news.braina.c...01_0010___.html (2002 Japanese court decision Tatsunoko v Studio Nue/Big West. Not this is note the final decision, the Japanese Supreme Court made a final ruling in 2004 but I can’t find that document at the moment)
http://transformers....22Skyfire.22.3F (Jetfire/Skyfire info)

*Grognard mode: off*

TL;DR
40K has more dakka
FASA and Harmony Gold both thought they were doing the right thing, and they both f****d up.


Edit: Spelling will be the death of me.

Edited by Daetrin Voltari, 02 July 2013 - 08:53 PM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Daetrin Voltari, on 02 July 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

@James The Fox Dixon. You say that FASA contracted with Studio Nue for the rights to Macross and I’d really like to see some proof of that. If you have information I don’t I’d love to see it, but this directly contradicts FASA Studio’s claims in court. The only contract FASA seems to have had with Studio Nue was for the creation of original art for the Japanese edition of BattleTech, a necessity as FASA never had nor intended to have any claim on the Macross art in Japan. In fact this art was deliberately different from the original Macross, Dougram, and Crusher Joe art so as not to infringe on domestic copyrights. Nobody would have contracted with Studio Nue for the Macross designs in the ‘80s because everyone believed that Tatsunoko Productions owned the international rights under Japanese law. It took a 2002 Japanese High Court ruling to change that. Both FASA Studios and Harmony Gold entered into their respective deals with the belief that they were acting in good faith and had a legitimate claim on the Macross designs. During the ’96 court case Harmony Gold had a clear paper trail establishing their claim and FASA Studios didn’t, but we will never know who would have won because FASA was smart enough to realize that even a win would have bled them dry. Neither side covered themselves in glory during this remarkable foul-up.

Edit: Spelling will be the death of me.

http://frustratedpil...com/567179.html

Yes, the license that FASA was with Twentieth Century Imports, but that license was from Studio Nue not Tatsunoko. Said license to TCI allowed them to license the images without the names of the show they were associated with and were called "key ad art". As such it can be safely said that FASA did have a license from Studio Nue through an intermediary that is TCI. Sub-licensing is a legal way of doing things and legally connects FASA to the owning studio as it is a shared license between two companies that is beneficial to each of them. This is part of why FASA was able to get Studio Nue to do the art for the unseen in the 1992 version of Japanese Battletech.

This is in post number 1 in the comments. It explains the details from an insider source.

There are two errors in the original court documents you linked to that pertains to the FASA vs. Playmates and FASA vs. Harmony Gold cases. In the documents, it cites that Tatsunoko owned the copyrights to the mech and character designs because at that time they thought that they had them. It turns out that they never had them to begin with as was decided in 2002 and 2006 by the Japanese Courts that Tatsunoko only had the international copyrights to the Macross/Southern Cross animation itself not the mech and character designs contained within the animation. Those rights are held by Studio Nue/Big West.

The second error is that TCI was working with Takara and other Japanese model kit and wargame manufacturers while working against Bandai in the market share war between Takara and Bandai in the importation of Japanese model kits and miniatures based off of animation. Tatsunoko was later bought out by Takara under the Takara Tomy company name.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 06 July 2013 - 04:56 PM.

[Nebfer]

My 2 cents into this
From my time on a Scifi Debate forum (Sapcebattles), which has done a few B-tech vs Warhammer 40k debates...
Lasguns / Laser rifles
Both are probably not to dissimilar from each other, though WH40k has a better battery pack, though some B-tech weapons might impress the Guard a bit ("Plasma" weapons that do not explode, Weapons with built in grenade launchers (OICW style), Infantry Gauss Weapons, ect), and the Guard has some that would impress B-tech (Melta guns).

Bolt Guns: are often loosely equated as MGs
Lascannons: are viewed as roughly a standard Med laser (though which class dose very on who you ask).
Battlecannons: can be equated as a medium rifle with out to much trouble, though it could be argued for other types.
Autocannons: can be argued as roughly AC-5s (I do not get the impression that their all that big)

Though not all Guard weapons are exactly the same even of the same type I would think... Though one dose not need to exactly follow B-tech weapons exactly, A battle cannon could be a Medium Rifle +2...

One thing note on B-tech weapons is that a Gauss Rifle flings a 125kg slug at Hypersonic speeds, The Ke is in the range of mid sized Battleship guns.

An interesting thing about Guard Vehicles is that their tanks are rather slow (at lest per the Imperium Armor write ups), for instance the 60 ton Leman Russ only has a off road speed of 21kph. The 60 ton Bulldog Tank (B-tech) has a off road speed of more than three times that (65kph), as such B-tech vehicles can fairly easly out run 40k vehicles (to be fair their are sources that seem to indicate that the Russ can reach a speed of 50+ kph...).

The end is baring Super heavy Tanks like the Baneblade and Titans (even the lightest ones are like the weight of a assault lance), Battletech can do fairly well facing the Imperial guard, and by extension other WH40k forces. Though for a Baneblade you would need a good assault Lance to deal with properly, Titans will need a good assault Company or more (or nukes), but the larger ones are a bit of a out of character problem...

However in space Battletech would lose in seconds...
Like wise Military vs Military Battletech will lose as well... I.e. if you pit the full weight of the Imprium vs Battletech...

[S3dition]

RatBast, on 14 June 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

I'm not referring to 'legal theft'. the criticism of GW was based upon it copying the IP of other franchises (at least, that is what I assumed was meant by 'Thefthammer'.. or at least, that is the only interpretation that makes sense). You can't be more of a 'copycat' than outright using the mecha designs from other properties instead of designing your own, which is what early Battletech did. Sure, 40k Tyranids (for example) may be heavily influenced by the Alien franchise, but they didn't outright use H.R. Giger's xenomorph design, at least.

GW started out making cheap knockoffs for D&D miniatures, then essentially stole their way up to an IP. Even without going back and looking at the origins of their games, you can get a good look through their IP claims, such as chevrons, skulls, roman numerals, etc. They claim they own everything under the sun, and even the sun itself. On top of that, look at their legal section. You aren't even allowed to post a picture of your army or models without giving them credit for it.

Also, the tyranids were a rip off of aliens. See below.

Shumabot, on 14 June 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Except they had to settle it in court, ergo what they did violated business law and was forcibly settled with a payout in a civil court. That's not legal, that's not "on the level" that's "oops, we got caught, better pay money until this goes away".

As for the case being taken to court now, that's totally irrelevant since this occurred over two decades ago and most of the involved parties don't actually exist in a fashion that would be similar to how they existed then. International IP law is also much different now.



Cite an example, one. just one. If all you have is "Well that looks kinda like this thing" then you have nothing and don't know what intellectual property theft is.



Which has no relevance to the tyranids at all. Riddley scotts feral and animalist alien race with no ships, no controlling intelligence, one specific form of breeding, and a standard and set visual style has nothing to do with GWs extragalactic bee swarm that eats planets and comes in a million different shapes and sizes.



This is not riddley scotts Alien.



So now we're no longer using the term theft as theft in any legalistic sense, just what is vaguely "similar". I trust you get mad about marvel comics stealing the idea of "superheros" and transformers for stealing the idea of "transforming robots". Also, I can't believe you're still running with the nuns and guns angle, fetishwear women in post apocalyptic settings has been a trope of the film and gaming industry since the 60's. Nuns and guns was literally a spoof of something, you can not steal a concept from something that is spoofing that concept, that is absolute nonsense.


For whatever hate you may have for early GW's constant references in it's artwork and themes (and there were many (almost every Schwarzenegger film star is a GW character somewhere and one of the primarchs is named Micheal Sheen) they have never "stolen" anything. They've taken concepts and altered them significantly, and in their modern incarnations GWs two settings are unique, deep, and wholly different from their competitors.

What has battletech done in the last 20 years to evolve and change with the times, precisely? Other than get sold four times and drive two companies out of business.

This IS Ridley Scott's aliens:



And GW was called on the outright plagiarism. They ended up rewriting the entire codex and scrapping a whole range of miniatures in what, 2 years? It was the shortest release of any 40k product ever. Honestly, Fox should have pulled a GW and sued them over Christmas vacation at a location 1000 miles away without any warning.

Even the earlier 40k artwork was done in a manner that made it similar to HR Giger's work, minus the sado-erotic elements.

Still not impressed?

How about this:



vs



This is the road GW has been on:






I've played GW games long enough to see that they'll happily rip off anything that's doing well and claim it's their own, and it's pretty obvious to see where the influence is coming from. Heck, they even put Rambo in a codex.

++++++++++

But, more to the OP, how powerful something is depends on how cool it was in the 80's and how much hair it has (see Sanguinius v. Azrael). Though the primary motivator of plot armor and unit strength in 40k relates directly to how much the models will cost inside the store. In fact, simply reading said rules now will cost you $50, unless you want an expansion army, in which case it's $100. If you wish to be tournament ready, the rules will cost $150. But if you want to know how to play the game, it will be $225. Then you can start with those Deathwing Knights at $60 per 5. All proceeds will go to Cease and Desist letters.


Battletech, on the other hand, tries to be so real it handicaps itself. In an age where a 50 foot tall tank with a fusion reactor and lasers is actually less capable than a battle tank that was designed in the 70's and infantry carry missiles that do less damage to armor than the squad's combined assault rifles, everyone fights so a single entity can control the galaxy's dial-up modem.

Okay, that's a bit tongue-in-cheek, but both systems were designed in the 80's and are pretty ridiculous and incompatible.

[Shortbus]

mania3c, on 14 June 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

I want be an ork.. can I be ork In battletech? It would be awesome..

Yes

you can play BATTLERUN (battletech/shadowrun)

the best of both worlds

[RapierE01]

A 1 on 1 of a Space Marine versus an Elemental would be cool.

[Nebfer]

RapierE01, on 10 August 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

A 1 on 1 of a Space Marine versus an Elemental would be cool.

In power armor it could be closer than one might think, particularly depending on they type of suit the B-tech Elemental uses. Not in power armor the Space marines advantages realy start kicking in as such an Elemental is not likely to win in "unarmored combat", largely due to a Marines enhanced strength, speed and reflexes.


A list of current B-tech Clan battle armor, the Generations is not canon but a loose idea of design time frames
Elemental -the classic "gold standard" suit: 1,000kg, 250kg of armor, 1x weapons mount*, 1x SRM-2, 1x APWM, 11kph ground, 90m jump

-- 2nd Generation Clan Armors (3056-3060)
Gnome: 1,500kg, 350kg armor, 1x ER Small laser, 1x Adv. SRM-2, 11kph ground, 60m jump
Slyph: 750kg, 125kg armor, 1x Micro pulse laser, 1x bomb rack, 11kph ground, ~54kph flight**
Undine: 1,000kg, 200kg armor, 1x ER Micro laser, 1x5 OS-LRM rack, 11kph ground, 17.5 knots in water (32.4kph)
Salamander: 1,000kg, 210kg fire resist armor, 2x Flamers, 1x OS-SRM-1, 11kph ground, 90m jump

-- 3rd Generation (3067-3075)
Aerie: 400kg, 35kg armor Basic Stealth, Infantry weapons only, 21kph ground, 90m jump (space use)
Afreet: 1,000kg, 125kg armor, 1x Light Recoilless Rifle, Vibro Claws, 11kph ground, 120m jump
Corona: 1,500kg, 200kg armor, 1x Medium Pulse laser, 1x APWM, 21kph ground
Clan BA: 1,000kg, 175kg armor, 1x Flamer, 2x2 OS-SRM launchers, 11kph ground, 120m jump
Golom: 2,000kg, 540kg fire resist armor, 2x Bear Hunter Autocannons, 1x5 Adv. SRM launcher, 21kph ground
Rogue Bear: 1,500kg, 325kg armor, 2x MGs, 1x3 SRM launcher, 11kph ground, 60m jump

-- 4th Generation (3077-3089)
Ironhold: 2,000kg, 400kg armor, 2x AP Gauss Rifles, 11kph ground, 60m jump
Warg: 2,000kg, 400kg armor, 1x small pulse laser, 1x LMG, 2x3 SRM launchers, 11kph ground
Thunderbird: 1,500kg, 250kg armor, 1x weapons mount, 11kph ground, 90m jump
Elemental II: 1,000kg, 250kg armor, 1x AP Gauss Rifle, 1x APWM, 43kph ground

-- 5th Generation 3090+
Constable Pacification Suit***: 750kg, 125kg armor, 2x Hvy Grenade Launchers, 1x Weapons mount, 2x cutting torchs, 32kph ground, 90m jump
Buraq: 1,000kg, 175kg armor, 2x MGs, 76kph ground (a "quad based suit")
Wraith: 1,000kg, 300kg Basic Stealth armor, 2x MGs, 11kph ground, 90m jump
Black Wolf: 1,500kg, 385kg reactive armor,1x weapons mount , 11kph ground, 30m jump****
Cuchulainn: 1,500kg, 420kg Improved stealth armor, 1x ER Medium Pulse Laser, 11kph ground (21kph if weapon is droped)

Theirs a few I missed but this should be most of them

* The Elemeental like many later suits can swap out weapons based on the expected threat, some useful ones here would be the laser configs and the AP Gauss config
** Some older rules sets seem to indicate that it could go faster than what the game indicated
*** This is more used as a police suit
**** the weapons mount configs inclueds a BA scale LBX autocannon

----------------------------------------------------------------
A space marine in armor is around 400-1,000kg, can go 50+ kph and has at lest a MG (bolter)

A space marine squad is not going to like it if the "opposing squad" has the equlvents of lascannons and or multi lasers, electromagnetic weapons (gauss rilfes), or even Autocannons as their basic weapons.

---------------------------------
Another thing to note is their are IS factions (I.e. Davion and Steiner) that issue a regiment of battle armor to their battlemech forces, said regiment contains 1,024 troopers, which is the equvlent of a full chapter of spacemarines

[FromHell2k]