95 replies to this topic

[Cole Allard]

Warhammer...black library has had a major revamp in the last 5 years. Battletech on the other hand is living of fans that get older and older and play and live the game since the 80th.

The approach on the "giant robot" is completly different.

In BT its a Warmachine, piloted by a warrior that fights in a lance or a star. Like a tank if you like.

In WH its a millemnia old ancestral holy machine, piloted by a crew of devoted priests that can carry a whole cathedral on its shoulder, wears banners from ancients battlefields and has...its own will (machine spirit). The older they get, the harder it is to control it...and they are treated like "gods".


Comparing them, would make honor to none of both I think.

[Kyone Akashi]

Melcyna, on 17 June 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

Sure Cain wouldn't technically be one assuming one actually can see through him. which is the whole point, he is a consummate liar and a very good one at it that Amberley is pretty much the only human that ever manages to see through what he is aside of being actually close enough to him to gain glimpse of what's underneath his mask.

In the Schola, people get broken down and brainwashed. It's basically 40k's version of the Third Reich's NaPolA academies. And why would Cain lie about these things in the first place? If he wouldn't want to join the military because it's dangerous (which I feel is amongst the things that Schola indoctrination would simply remove from the students) then he'd simply join the majority of students who become Administratum clerks and so on.
You don't get conscripted into the Commissariat, you have to really, really, really work for it. From the looks of it, however, Mitchell simply didn't quite "get" the bit about how few of the progena actually end up in the military. It comes off as if it'd be a training camp for Commissars, SoB and Storm Troopers, nothing more.

Melcyna, on 17 June 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

Schola Progenia indoctrinates it's students but how likely it succeeds and how well it can actually mold it's students into what they want naturally varies just as much as the indoctrination itself varies depending on the one in charge (Ecclesiarchy only sets the key parts, and the exact implementation varies depending on who is in reign)

The one who is in reign is the Arch Drill-Abbot, who himself is a member of the Ecclesiarchy.

It's one of the other things in which Mitchell's Schola differs from the one in GW material.

Melcyna, on 17 June 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

To be frank, while reading it i don't see what's against the established lore given that the entire process are vague in the established lore itself, and not surprising considering the size of the supposed Imperium and the amount of personnel involved which is overblown.

For starters, as per Codex fluff the Schola Progenium is utterly gender-segregated. Males and females don't get to mingle, especially not during sports games.

Also, the Schola does not have such a thing as Commissar Cadets or Sororitas Novices. The Schola trains progena, and once they have finished their education program, they get transferred away into the organisation they seem most suitable for. In case of Commissars, that would be the Commissar Training Squads within the Imperial Guard (see White Dwarf #115), whereas the few girls who may seem suitable for membership in one of the Orders of the Adepta Sororitas are transferred to a training facility of the Orders Famulous where they begin their novitiate (see GW's Inquisitor RPG as well as the Villainy & Infamy article on Ephrael Stern).

And just like there would not be Novice classes in a Schola, so would there be no Sister Superior, as the training of the progena is entirely in the hands of the Drill Abbots (see Inquisitor RPG as well as 2E Codex SoB). But hypothetically, even if there would be a Sister Superior as a trainer, she would surely not be a fun-loving, laid-back, card-playing flirt like that one woman in the novel. This behaviour is in stark contrast of both the lifestyle of the teachers (which is said to be "strict and puritan" due to decrees that have been passed after the Age of Apostasy) as well as the Sororitas themselves (a "penitent organisation of arduous work, hardship and self-deprivation").

The way the author has portrayed a member of the Sisterhood here is an affront to every fan of the faction. I'm not sure if Mitchell simply didn't care or didn't read about the Sisters, or if he wanted to appease some of the 4chan neckbeards with their sexual fantasies about Slu promiscuous (wow, word filter ) Sisters, but I don't like it at all.

Melcyna, on 17 June 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

This incidentally is not a weakness imho, in fact the opposite (though the original purpose really was not for writers, but instead for players so they can come up with their own background for their forces that has much more lenient restrictions)

Unfortunately, you cannot explain everything with "it works different on this world than that", and problems arise when you have conflicting interpretations about various core technologies or factions right up to contradictions on one and the same topic.
Black Library can't even decide whether Space Marines should be two, three or five meters high.

Melcyna, on 17 June 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

When you hard define things in the lore like BT sometimes did, you not only restrict yourself within the lore confine, but you also risk hoisting your own petard when you realize things defined in the lore DON'T MAKE SENSE...

That depends on where you draw your line in regards to suspension of disbelief. Just about every sci-fi franchise has things that "don't make sense". For example, have you ever read the description on why Space Marines supposedly can only be male? Whoever wrote that needs to buy a book on biology.

Also, I've found that consistency in the material makes it so much easier to discuss things amongst fans. With 40k, unfortunately the majority of "facts" are just possibilities, and thus easy to discard by simple cherrypicking. In essence, every 40k fan has their own little world, their own little interpretation of the setting, and needless to say all these little worlds tend to lack in compatibility the more you delve into details.
This is what really bothered me for many years - until I noticed that (contrary to what a lot of fans told me at first, and which I used to believe until growing sceptical and looking for the truth) 40k does not even want to be consistent and that, indeed, the writers of the franchise regard this lack of compatibility as a feature rather than a bug. But as I said, I suppose that's but a matter of preferences.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 18 June 2013 - 05:42 AM.

[Blacktemplar223]

Kyone Akashi, on 17 June 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Oh, that wasn't what I meant when I was using the term "Mary-Sue". It's just that the Space Marines are such a dominant theme in the franchise that few authors risk portraying them in a way that does not flatter them. They are the most common protagonists, able to score ridiculous victories that go against everything the background stands for (for example, the Space Wolves taking on and triumphing over an entire Segmentum worth of Imperial Navy forces in blatant disregard of the fluff that states they should not even be able to win a one-on-one), yet when Imperial antagonists are required, authors most often pull out the Guard or the Sisters. When I look at Battletech, the portrayal of the factions quite simply strikes me as being far more balanced, and I kind of like that. To actually read about the Space Marines losing for a change one needs to pull out some very obscure GW studio sources, for the company has apparently adopted the freelance Black Library authors' stance as well.

Granted, from all I've heard the Space Marines are the most popular faction amongst players and sell the most models - yet for a good representation of the setting as a whole, Games Workshop's current model does not deliver. Which is kind of sad, as it wastes a huge amount of potential.

Canon? Which canon? That's the next big problem - there ain't any, which is exactly why every author is allowed to come up with his own ideas, which of course leads to the many conflicts and contradictions between the sources.
Some fans and authors like this, but I for one prefer consistency. In this, Battletech managed to positively surprise me.


I'm sure there's lots of BT novels I would think likewise about. All I can say is that from everything I have read so far from both franchises, I like BT more. They just have more character, seem to delve more into the personalities of the people and the culture in which they grow up and that shapes them. Of course, I've only read six or so yet, and I don't even have an intention of getting all. For example, I don't think that Stackpole's books are on the same &quot;wavelength&quot; as my taste.</p>
In case you keep on exploring those books, I do wish you the best of luck in finding (at least) one you like.

Like Cole Allard was saying, Black Library has been doing a lot to make things more consistent, and it's been a huge step forwards over the past 2-5 years. The hierarchy still goes Codex&gt;books&gt;everything else. I can see how things do get muddled and convenient devices are often used to cover up discrepancies ("because. . . the WARP!" or "Warp storm!").

I am going to keep on with the BT books, again I'm just getting to the clan invasion, and I'm hoping the payoff is a good one, I'm just mildly annoyed at the constant juggling of like 10 characters stories and hope the author can pull everything together.

If you want to try some 40k books that are more character stories or don't give you a clean cut picture of the SMs, I would recommend the following:
the Eldar Trilogy (path of the warrior, path of the seer, path of the outcast):
each book of the trilogy covers 1 of 3 friends who take different paths of the Eldar, but end up
intertwined with each other though they go their separate ways.


Any Dark Angel book/short story (angels of darkness, Ravenwing, descent of angels, fallen angels):
all the dark Angel stories deal with the fallen, and often portray the angels badly since they're willing to sacrifice everything or anyone just to get those fallen. In the Heresy era novels, (descent and fallen) you actually deal with what caused the fall and as things stand right now, the primarch is possibly the one with issues.

The only thing that still baffles me is I'm not sure where you saw the Wolves triumphing over an entire Segmentum fleet though. . .

Edited by Blacktemplar223, 18 June 2013 - 05:46 AM.

[Adridos]

Blacktemplar223, on 18 June 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

I am going to keep on with the BT books, again I'm just getting to the clan invasion, and I'm hoping the payoff is a good one, I'm just mildly annoyed at the constant juggling of like 10 characters stories and hope the author can pull everything together.

the Eldar Trilogy (path of the warrior, path of the seer, path of the outcast):
each book of the trilogy covers 1 of 3 friends who take different paths of the Eldar, but end up
intertwined with each other though they go their separate ways.

Nice to see some recomendations for the 3 books... I kinda always wanted to know more about Eldar (being the faction I like the most - altough only from videogames and wikies like Lexicanum), but never knew if the were any good.

As far as BTech books go, yes, we are a bit behind Black Library, since they got onto and beond our level while we couldn't get Catalyst to make almost any books due to a plethora of legal junk. This is thankfully said to be going to end soon with actual new novels planned by CGL, but it's still not here.

As far as current BTech books go, which faction do you like? I think that reading by "timeline" is quite useless when you already know about events that will happen (for instance, Wolf's Dragoons were shrouded in mistery at the time of writing, but now everyone knows exactly what they are and what they'll do). Reading about your favorite faction and especially if it's a bit less covered faction is a lot more entertaining. For instance, all books I've read from BTech so far is the Capellan Solution Trilogy (yeah, it's a duology, but it really doesn't work without reading the prequel book), since altough Stackpole's books are fairly popular, I know I'd just throw it into trash after seeing just a bit of that anti-Capellan bias he's so famous for.

[Blacktemplar223]

Adridos, on 18 June 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

Nice to see some recomendations for the 3 books... I kinda always wanted to know more about Eldar (being the faction I like the most - altough only from videogames and wikies like Lexicanum), but never knew if the were any good.

As far as BTech books go, yes, we are a bit behind Black Library, since they got onto and beond our level while we couldn't get Catalyst to make almost any books due to a plethora of legal junk. This is thankfully said to be going to end soon with actual new novels planned by CGL, but it's still not here.

As far as current BTech books go, which faction do you like? I think that reading by "timeline" is quite useless when you already know about events that will happen (for instance, Wolf's Dragoons were shrouded in mistery at the time of writing, but now everyone knows exactly what they are and what they'll do). Reading about your favorite faction and especially if it's a bit less covered faction is a lot more entertaining. For instance, all books I've read from BTech so far is the Capellan Solution Trilogy (yeah, it's a duology, but it really doesn't work without reading the prequel book), since altough Stackpole's books are fairly popular, I know I'd just throw it into trash after seeing just a bit of that anti-Capellan bias he's so famous for.

yeah I ended up liking the eldar trilogy a lot more than I thought I would. Although I will say I was slightly disappointed in the end of the final book. Wasn't a fault of the book, I just thought they were going somewhere else with it.

As far as BT factions go I'm still a bit undecided. from browsing through sarna, I thought I liked the clans, but from what I've seen so far of the books they aren't what I thought they were. I've always kind of liked Steiner/lyran but hadn't really seen a whole lot in the lore to justify that like. Again I'm still pretty green with BT novels and lore so I don't have enough information to take a stance for one or the other. Any recommendations for where to find faction based lore like specific books for certain factions or anything?

[Adridos]

Blacktemplar223, on 18 June 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Any recommendations for where to find faction based lore like specific books for certain factions or anything?

The Starterbooks are outdated and Sarna only has non-picture versions (you shouldn't have problems finding pictured versions online, if you so desire, but posting links here would be against the rules), but it's the safe bet since buying one of the modernised Handbooks and ending up not liking it would kind of suck (the new ones also have at least previews included, but Marik, Davion and Steiner are oldies without those, so...).

Unless you settle for some brief summaries ala Sarna, official Universe page, or the Universe guide, these are your safest bet to find a fitting faction through fiction and not through people (as I myself simply asked what each faction is, rounded it up to the three non-Fed Com factions and simply joined Capellans since guys here were the most helpful when it came to it... which I didn't regret as when I actually started reading into the stuff, I found out there was much more to the faction than I originally thought).

[Kyone Akashi]

Blacktemplar223, on 18 June 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

Like Cole Allard was saying, Black Library has been doing a lot to make things more consistent, and it's been a huge step forwards over the past 2-5 years. The hierarchy still goes Codex > books > everything else.

See, I say that's merely wishful thinking, for I happen to know that the very people who write these books said differently.

I have collected a few rather enlightening quotes (from the people who really ought to know as they are the ones creating this content) in this post, together with links to their original source, if you want to give it a read. Rather interesting and eye-opening, at least it was to me when I embarked on that journey to discover if there's any truth to this supposed consistency and hierarchy. Turns out it was nothing but fans repeating urban rumors.

Blacktemplar223, on 18 June 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

If you want to try some 40k books that are more character stories or don't give you a clean cut picture of the SMs, I would recommend the following: [...]

Thanks for the recommendations, but I confess that Eldar aren't really "my thing"...
Should I start reading 40k again at some point in time, I'll probably get a short story anthology, as I've generally been pleased with them in the past. The stories are more varied and less outrageous ("uber-epic"), plus you get a good cut through a lot of different authors (possibly discovering some whose style you like).
When someone asks what 40k books to read, I always recommend the anthologies for this very reason, as everything else is really just personal preference.

Blacktemplar223, on 18 June 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

In the Heresy era novels, (descent and fallen) you actually deal with what caused the fall and as things stand right now, the primarch is possibly the one with issues.

Mhm, I prefer the Heresy as myth and legend, and from all I've heard the novels are way too over the top for my taste. Primarchs lifting a Titan? Not in my 40k.

Blacktemplar223, on 18 June 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

The only thing that still baffles me is I'm not sure where you saw the Wolves triumphing over an entire Segmentum fleet though. . .

The second(?) Battle of the Fang, where Bucharis gained control of the western side of the Imperium during the Age of Apostasy. Threw millions upon millions of Guardsmen onto Fenris but "of course" failed to overcome the skeleton crew of SW defenders. And when the rest of the Chapter returned from some crusade, they whipped the Imperial Navy's arse.
It's in the 2E SoB 'dex, for whatever reason, and is just one example from a long list of how "awesome" and "ubercool" the Space Wolves supposedly are, but surely the most ludicrous. In general, to me it appears they have carte blanche to do what they want; apparently even the Inquisition and the High Lords are afraid of them.
Shame. Vikings in Space was a cool idea, but the execution was really, really poor, imo.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 18 June 2013 - 08:07 AM.

[Melcyna]

Kyone Akashi, on 18 June 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

In the Schola, people get broken down and brainwashed. It's basically 40k's version of the Third Reich's NaPolA academies. And why would Cain lie about these things in the first place? If he wouldn't want to join the military because it's dangerous (which I feel is amongst the things that Schola indoctrination would simply remove from the students) then he'd simply join the majority of students who become Administratum clerks and so on.
You don't get conscripted into the Commissariat, you have to really, really, really work for it. From the looks of it, however, Mitchell simply didn't quite "get" the bit about how few of the progena actually end up in the military. It comes off as if it'd be a training camp for Commissars, SoB and Storm Troopers, nothing more.

The one who is in reign is the Arch Drill-Abbot, who himself is a member of the Ecclesiarchy.

It's one of the other things in which Mitchell's Schola differs from the one in GW material.

For starters, as per Codex fluff the Schola Progenium is utterly gender-segregated. Males and females don't get to mingle, especially not during sports games.

Also, the Schola does not have such a thing as Commissar Cadets or Sororitas Novices. The Schola trains progena, and once they have finished their education program, they get transferred away into the organisation they seem most suitable for. In case of Commissars, that would be the Commissar Training Squads within the Imperial Guard (see White Dwarf #115), whereas the few girls who may seem suitable for membership in one of the Orders of the Adepta Sororitas are transferred to a training facility of the Orders Famulous where they begin their novitiate (see GW's Inquisitor RPG as well as the Villainy & Infamy article on Ephrael Stern).

And just like there would not be Novice classes in a Schola, so would there be no Sister Superior, as the training of the progena is entirely in the hands of the Drill Abbots (see Inquisitor RPG as well as 2E Codex SoB). But hypothetically, even if there would be a Sister Superior as a trainer, she would surely not be a fun-loving, laid-back, card-playing flirt like that one woman in the novel. This behaviour is in stark contrast of both the lifestyle of the teachers (which is said to be "strict and puritan" due to decrees that have been passed after the Age of Apostasy) as well as the Sororitas themselves (a "penitent organisation of arduous work, hardship and self-deprivation").

The way the author has portrayed a member of the Sisterhood here is an affront to every fan of the faction. I'm not sure if Mitchell simply didn't care or didn't read about the Sisters, or if he wanted to appease some of the 4chan neckbeards with their sexual fantasies about Slu promiscuous (wow, word filter ) Sisters, but I don't like it at all.

Unfortunately, you cannot explain everything with "it works different on this world than that", and problems arise when you have conflicting interpretations about various core technologies or factions right up to contradictions on one and the same topic.
Black Library can't even decide whether Space Marines should be two, three or five meters high.

That depends on where you draw your line in regards to suspension of disbelief. Just about every sci-fi franchise has things that "don't make sense". For example, have you ever read the description on why Space Marines supposedly can only be male? Whoever wrote that needs to buy a book on biology.

Also, I've found that consistency in the material makes it so much easier to discuss things amongst fans. With 40k, unfortunately the majority of "facts" are just possibilities, and thus easy to discard by simple cherrypicking. In essence, every 40k fan has their own little world, their own little interpretation of the setting, and needless to say all these little worlds tend to lack in compatibility the more you delve into details.
This is what really bothered me for many years - until I noticed that (contrary to what a lot of fans told me at first, and which I used to believe until growing sceptical and looking for the truth) 40k does not even want to be consistent and that, indeed, the writers of the franchise regard this lack of compatibility as a feature rather than a bug. But as I said, I suppose that's but a matter of preferences.

Spoiler

The only problem of course is that indoctrination through that method weren't exactly reliable in the first place (the same reason why Napola produced oddities like Buchheim, that somehow survived through it intact despite not exactly fitting with the ideology indoctrinated), short of mental wiping someone and rewriting the psyche.

As far as Cain as the subject, well if there's any consolation, he sucked at everything short of combat exercise and physical work in his Schola Progenum days. Administration work is somewhat farfetched with that kind of aptitude.

And the part with him being a consummate liar isn't referring to him lying about it, rather it gives an idea of how one can go through a regimented and conditioned training school that drills obedience and indoctrinate their student despite not exactly taking the whole idea to his heart. Assuming one is sufficiently apt at it, no one exactly can tell how much of the indoctrination succeeded short of mind scan.

Essentially, if someone has a sufficiently strong build and endurance, physical based conditioning to mold recruits mind aren't nearly as effective. And if he's sufficiently apt at disguising his thought, mental conditioning short of direct mind invasion aren't going to be very useful either.

You are right though that the whole both gender part within Schola Progena and how they interact (including the sport) is an oddity in the novel, which is the part that sticks out the most.
And i am certainly not the most familiar with Sororitas material.

As far as the commissariat is concerned though, the training program isn't exactly set on the rock that we know of the same way that there are many schola progrena around with each not exactly identical, they are supposed to be trained in commissariat path after they graduate from schola progena yeah, but how exactly they go through this weren't as tight bound as for example the inquisitorial path.

The primary reason why i have no problem with them taking liberties at the path exactly is because logically given the size of the imperium and how many IG regiments there are in known imperium, it would require essentially astounding amount of commissars to attach. The rather ludicrous number required doesn't seems to make any sort of rigid path possible since the only way to produce enough of them would be to train them in as many places as it would take to produce sufficient number of them (considering how many seems to be dead, either from direct combat or from... er... friendly fire) and it seems extremely unlikely that one can keep the same path and standard in all of them at once.

I have no problem incidentally with facts being presented as 'possibilities'

Because for soft sci fi, NONE of them can write science or other 'facts' in any concrete or coherent manner anyhow... in which case it's preferable to leave the options open enough for interpretation (so ppl who actually has a clue on how things are supposed to work don't have to strain the suspension of disbelief beyond breaking point), while only cementing the parts vital for gameplay.

Edited by Melcyna, 18 June 2013 - 06:05 PM.

[Kyone Akashi]

Melcyna, on 18 June 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

The only problem of course is that indoctrination through that method weren't exactly reliable in the first place (the same reason why Napola produced oddities like Buchheim, that somehow survived through it intact despite not exactly fitting with the ideology indoctrinated), short of mental wiping someone and rewriting the psyche.

Buchheim never was a Napola cadet. Here's a (German) article clearing up that very common mistake. I hope Google translate is sufficient to allow understanding.

Also, note my remark that the Schola is even more extreme, with children recruited at even younger years, and taking more time to form them. The Napolas were just the best example I can think of, as there are a lot of similarities.

Melcyna, on 18 June 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

As far as Cain as the subject, well if there's any consolation, he sucked at everything short of combat exercise and physical work in his Schola Progenum days. Administration work is somewhat farfetched with that kind of aptitude.

No, it isn't. Commissars are supposed to be the ideological backbone of the Guard, and if your psyche doesn't fit, then you don't get to be one. If he only excelled at combat exercise (how did that work, if he is a coward?) and physical work, then he would've become an NCO at the Munitorum's Sectorum Command or on a Navy warship, as most martially minded progena.

Melcyna, on 18 June 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

Essentially, if someone has a sufficiently strong build and endurance, physical based conditioning to mold recruits mind aren't nearly as effective. And if he's sufficiently apt at disguising his thought, mental conditioning short of direct mind invasion aren't going to be very useful either.

I hope you understand my scepticism concerning children being able to withstand that kind of abuse and indoctrination without repercussions - I've read a little too much on historical examples to believe that.

Melcyna, on 18 June 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

As far as the commissariat is concerned though, the training program isn't exactly set on the rock that we know of the same way that there are many schola progrena around with each not exactly identical, they are supposed to be trained in commissariat path after they graduate from schola progena yeah, but how exactly they go through this weren't as tight bound as for example the inquisitorial path.

Not really. The WD article was rather clear on how it would work:

An excerpt:

"The Commissar-General of an Imperial Guard Regiment selects the most promising recruits from those recommended to him by the schools of the Ministorum. After basic Imperial Guard training, these become Cadet Commissars and proceed to special training for their demanding responsibilities as Commissars. [...] The Commissar-General assigns one of his Commissars to take the regiment's Cadets and form a tactical unit in its own right, known as the Commissar Training Squad. The unit is made up of one Commissar and nine Cadet Commissars. The Commissar Training Squad accompanies Imperial Guard forces into battle and takes part in some of the fiercest fighting. The training of a Cadet Commissar has no fixed duration. A Cadet qualifies as a full Commissar on the judgment of the Commissar-General. He will be awarded his Commissar status as soon as he is deemed worthy of it by his actions."

Which makes sense, given that there are no Commissars at a Schola to train any cadets. The only teachers are the Drill-Abbots. The Schola Progenium is nothing but religious indoctrination, extensive education and physical exercise / basic military training for everyone. Progena don't get assigned to specific organisations until after they are transferred to them, which happens via the Arch Drill-Abbot "recommending" the individual progena to the other Imperial Adepta, who then decide whether or not they take them (which is also reflected in the GW website article on Ephrael Stern's past). Only then is the fate of a student actually decided. It's really not like they are shoehorned into specific classes at the earliest age with the specific intent to make them a Commissar, Arbitrator, or whatever at all costs. If they don't fit the bill, then they won't get recommended/accepted. It's why most progena end up as civilian clerks.

Melcyna, on 18 June 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

The primary reason why i have no problem with them taking liberties at the path exactly is because logically given the size of the imperium and how many IG regiments there are in known imperium, it would require essentially astounding amount of commissars to attach. The rather ludicrous number required doesn't seems to make any sort of rigid path possible since the only way to produce enough of them would be to train them in as many places as it would take to produce sufficient number of them (considering how many seems to be dead, either from direct combat or from... er... friendly fire) and it seems extremely unlikely that one can keep the same path and standard in all of them at once.

Not to me, especially since this uniformity has been stated as a fact in the original source material. You can't just go and claim the opposite of what it says in the book.

Well, of course you can, but you can't demand anyone just following your interpretation.
By way of how the franchise is set up, you cannot be wrong, but the same goes for anyone you're argueing against. It's a circular problem that leads back to the issue of lacking consistency. In essence, it all comes down to which sources we prefer to shape our interpretation of the setting ... and I for one just like to stick closer to GW's original material than some freelance writer's tie-in fiction with ideas that likely won't be replicated anywhere else.

Melcyna, on 18 June 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

I have no problem incidentally with facts being presented as 'possibilities'

Well, matter of preferences. I would probably feel less negative about it if it'd be made clearer in the material, rather than one book saying "this is how it is", and the next one "this is how it is" as well, just with contradictory content. Needless confusion, imho, especially when it takes the reader to hunt down off-site author comments to actually find out about this. I actually think most of the fandom still erroneously believes in a "canon" because of this, which leads to endless debates amongst fans about issues for which there can be no resolution.

Melcyna, on 18 June 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

Because for soft sci fi, NONE of them can write science or other 'facts' in any concrete or coherent manner anyhow... in which case it's preferable to leave the options open enough for interpretation (so ppl who actually has a clue on how things are supposed to work don't have to strain the suspension of disbelief beyond breaking point), while only cementing the parts vital for gameplay.

We'll have to agree to disagree there, I suppose - there are plenty of settings which actually try to depict a uniform setting, and do it well enough to suck in and capture the reader's fantasy.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 19 June 2013 - 05:41 AM.

[Melcyna]

Which wouldn't make sense anyhow...

if we take this supposed setting of 40K for example, a galactic empire spanning literally off the limit of bureaucracy to the extent that planets and colonies can be 'lost' due to clerical error, the idea of a uniformity at the scale is in fact the more ludicrous one.

similar to the idea that they often use in portrayal within codex for example of major conflict since at the scale of the destruction they are trying to portray, any semblance of civilization structure would've collapsed if it's literally waged across the scale they are describing.

This is why i have no problem in general with divergence to codex or WD materials (which are often nonsensical to start with) as long as it's given ample material to flesh it out, and why i appreciate materials in soft sci fi that are more flexible.

After all, since soft sci fi (and this includes ALL OF THEM, BT, SW, ST, 40K, and untold number of other soft sci fi materials) are worthless in terms of logic and sensibility for the most part, then the only safe path is to be flexible.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Shumabot, on 14 June 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Except they had to settle it in court, ergo what they did violated business law and was forcibly settled with a payout in a civil court. That's not legal, that's not "on the level" that's "oops, we got caught, better pay money until this goes away".

As for the case being taken to court now, that's totally irrelevant since this occurred over two decades ago and most of the involved parties don't actually exist in a fashion that would be similar to how they existed then. International IP law is also much different now.

Except that it didn't violate any laws. An out of court settlement means that the courts never did hear the case and the results of the settlement are confidential. In light of the Japanese rulings that occurred a decade later does impact that settlement due to the rights that HG claimed are no longer theirs as they never had them to begin with. This frees Tops and whoever else that has the rights to Battletech to use the original designs under new licensing terms from the true copyright owners (Studio Nue). HG does not have a legal leg to stand on and lacks the cash to go after Battletech since the owner of HG was convicted of tax fraud in Italy. This establishes a pattern of abuse and illegal activity for HG especially in light of their claiming of trademarks they do not legally own like Macross etc...

You also have to consider Big West/Studio Nue putting an injunction in 2002 against HG for their illegal monopoly on all things Macross concerning imports into North America. This injunction is still in force today and there's not a thing that HG can do since they lack the legal rights through the Tatsunoko licensing arrangement.

Long story short is that FASA was always in the right while HG was not. FASA had the legal rights to the Unseen mechs through a license directly from Studio Nue who actually owns the copyrights to the mecha designs. HG's license does not extend to the mecha and character designs since their license from Tatsunoko does not grant them as Tatsunoko does not own the copyrights to the mecha designs. This is why HG had to drop all mecha designs related to Macross and Southern Cross in derivative works of Robotech ie Shadow Chronicles.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 20 June 2013 - 07:22 AM.

[Kyone Akashi]

Melcyna, on 20 June 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

Which wouldn't make sense anyhow... if we take this supposed setting of 40K for example, a galactic empire spanning literally off the limit of bureaucracy to the extent that planets and colonies can be 'lost' due to clerical error, the idea of a uniformity at the scale is in fact the more ludicrous one.

Not if you consider that interstellar travel still exists, and uniformity can be enforced by members of comparatively small organisations distributing comparatively hardcoded laws throughout their facilities.

The lack of uniformity you are referring to is created by the way the Imperium governs its various member worlds, and their "hands off"-policy that places total control in local governors without interference until an issue that actually warrants Terra's attention arises unsurprisingly results in considerable differences between mankind's colonies. That does not mean that there are no standards at all, or no people who would try to enforce them. It's merely a matter of what decrees you attempt to push where. For example, the "hands off"-policy does not apply to the Schola facilities, which are all administered directly by the Adeptus Ministorum.

Of course you could continue to argue how your personal interpretation/opinion might make more sense to you, but I don't see how that would lead anywhere. Either we are discussing the setting as created by the people who actually wrote it, or we don't do it at all. I have my own ideas for 40k as well, but that doesn't mean anything.

Melcyna, on 20 June 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

After all, since soft sci fi (and this includes ALL OF THEM, BT, SW, ST, 40K, and untold number of other soft sci fi materials) are worthless in terms of logic and sensibility for the most part, then the only safe path is to be flexible.

I still think you are confusing consistency with believability - but (apart from me not agreeing on the standards you seem to apply) if you have no problem with the former not existing in whatever settings you like, that is of course your choice. I just think that in this case one may as well stop buying that stuff altogether, given that you may just as well write it up yourself. After all, what's the point, once you realize that even the official stuff is just as worthless as the next guy's fan-fiction?

[Skylarr]

Shumabot, on 14 June 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Except they had to settle it in court, ergo what they did violated business law and was forcibly settled with a payout in a civil court. That's not legal, that's not "on the level" that's "oops, we got caught, better pay money until this goes away".

I will try to find the info.Maybe someone else knows where the info is. It was stated that FASA had just won costly battle against someone when HG placed their lawsuit. FASA was very sure they could win, but, lacked the finances if it was drawn out. So, they settled out-of-court and moved on. HG most likely knew this. Many COrporation settle out of court because the legal battle could ruin them.

[Blacktemplar223]

Kyone Akashi, on 20 June 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

Of course you could continue to argue how your personal interpretation/opinion might make more sense to you, but I don't see how that would lead anywhere. Either we are discussing the setting as created by the people who actually wrote it, or we don't do it at all. I have my own ideas for 40k as well, but that doesn't mean anything.

Well by your own words there is no established heirarchy of canon nor can anything be considered definitive, so yes you are arguing your own personal interpretation vs his. The fact that you are continuing to argue moot points just to come out the victor makes no sense to me. I think it's time to just drop this and move on since there's no "official canon" for warhammer and this thread has gone off the rails.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Skylarr, on 20 June 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

I will try to find the info.Maybe someone else knows where the info is. It was stated that FASA had just won costly battle against someone when HG placed their lawsuit. FASA was very sure they could win, but, lacked the finances if it was drawn out. So, they settled out-of-court and moved on. HG most likely knew this. Many COrporation settle out of court because the legal battle could ruin them.

FASA actually lost the case against Playmates, but was not required to pay the legal fees for the winning side (Playmates). HG sued FASA at about the same time the Playmates suit was going on as retaliation because Playmates was putting out Robotech (Macross) toys for their Exo-Squad line. HG and FASA settled out of court and the case was dismissed. If FASA would have survived to see the Japanese court rulings and had the money to fight HG they most certainly would have won their case since HG never had the rights to the mech designs that were in question.

One thing to keep in mind is that HG has a license from Tatsunoko not Studio Nue. FASA had a license directly from Studio Nue as they are the company that owns the copyrights to the mech designs. People forget that you can't license something you do not own and Tatsunoko and HG found out the hard way from the Japanese courts. Due to HG's actions, Big West/Studio Nue will not deal with HG at all.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 20 June 2013 - 12:24 PM.

[Kyone Akashi]

Blacktemplar223, on 20 June 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Well by your own words there is no established heirarchy of canon nor can anything be considered definitive, so yes you are arguing your own personal interpretation vs his. The fact that you are continuing to argue moot points just to come out the victor makes no sense to me. I think it's time to just drop this and move on since there's no "official canon" for warhammer and this thread has gone off the rails.

I was attempting to argue on his grounds in that regard, as he seemed to believe that the aforementioned contradictions are actually in line with the (non-existent) continuity - or at least that's how I understood him. It may well be that it was a failure of communication on my part.

If we are all of one mind regarding the absence of a "canon" anyways, then yes, we can indeed let the debate rest. Arguing about taste (which it eventually boils down to) will lead nowhere, I suppose.

[Melcyna]

It won't, but it's amusing and entertaining as far as i am concerned so assuming no one minds i have no problem continuing.

So assuming this can continue:

All we do incidentally is taking their own lore description and applying it with their other parts where it's sensible.
For example, 40K describe their administration as one of the most overloaded and inefficient overall.. which given their supposed size and this taking into account of FTL transportation in 40K mind you which carries a sizable risk in itself (not enough to stop military force though that has happened in their reference, but certainly not conducive to long life if done repeatedly) is probably not surprising.

So take one part oversized administration (essentially crushed under it's own weight), one part crazy (literally) FTL transportation to enforce this administration (other than FTL communication which is as crazy but less risky and naturally less rigid or effective at enforcing), shake well

and apply that to something that's supposed to be massive like an IG that had to man this oversized imperium, and thus by reference equally massive amount of commissariat (1 every regiment? holy shi-) and you get some idea on how much sensibility following their codex description as a hard guide would be.

which they don't exactly state to be a hard guide for that matter, not even SM follows several things that one might thought as a hard guide for them closely in their materials, they are template first and foremost but not exactly rigid one unless we want to, and how rigid we want it to be also directly determine how much inconsistency we will cause proportionally.

Ironic perhaps, but that's just the way soft sci fi materials are (if they were so consistent and well designed that one can take their material as a hard guide for that universe without running into contradiction and inconsistency, then it's a hard sci fi material).

Edited by Melcyna, 20 June 2013 - 05:54 PM.

[GrantLF]

Now the thing is they are kind of incomparable, in that 40K is based more around fantasy (eg: space marines have their armor welded to them for life) while in BT, it's based more around making the universe seem like it could be based in more of a reality, with different eras an science, development of technology and such. BT tells you how the things in the universe work (eg: neurohelmets work by not giving the pilot full "suit-ish" control but by using the pilots sense of balance to stabilize a mech accordingly.) Now don't get me wrong I really like both universes and their lore, I hope this kind of explains it.

[Melcyna]

Technically both are fantasy if you gauge on believable level, the only difference is that 40K is blatantly doing it and smack the convention silly having no qualm that they are being silly except on the odd occasions where they bizarrely tries to appear sensible ... and of course fails.

BT on the other hand tries to pretends that it has some semblance to our world more times than 40K... and fall FLAT doing it since it just makes things even sillier as none of their facet, be it tech, or politic makes much sense at all from our world practical point of view. That includes the neurohelmet and using the mechwarrior 'sense of balance' to help the mech... unless u can find a human with balance mechanism on their body tuned to a multi dozen ton mass and suspended several meters high up from the ground.

There is a good reason why aircrafts are choke full of instruments that tells the plane's attitude, and why pilots can lose their bearing and fail to know the plane's exact attitude when they have no plane of reference (low visibility is one of the most common cause), which is also why every pilots are trained to fly with just instrument information if necessary.

[Sears]

I was thinking about getting into table top gaming again. Used to get W40k when it was a bit cheaper. Now you need a small bank loan to even get into it anymore, not really something I want to spend loads of money on. Might wait for the new intro box set for Classic Battletech as I've never played it before and you can get that for £35.