95 replies to this topic

[Shumabot]

James The Fox Dixon, on 14 June 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

BattleTech beats TheftHammer 40k any day of the week. FASA did their best to create new ideas in their universe while GW steals everything that isn't nailed down and claims its theirs.

You know, except when they got sued for literally stealing other peoples designs and ideas.

Adridos, on 14 June 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

It wasn't theft at all.

They legally bought the designs, just couldn't pay for the court expenses when other company that also bought them (yeah, it's the Japanese who screwed up) tried to sue them and had to remove them.

In 2009, I believe, the Japan held the court and it turned out FASA was actually the one which owned the rights and the other company was teh real stealer... but FASA was already gone for years, so it doesn't help anything besides proving our point.

It was illegally purchased on the cheap from a company that didn't have the rights to sell the property. Just because money changed hands doesn't mean it was legal, nor does it mean they weren't perfectly aware that the company they were buying the designs from wasn't the company with the TV show AIRING AT THE SAME TIME IN AMERICA.

[Shumabot]

James The Fox Dixon, on 14 June 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

The difference between the two is obvious. FASA licensed the designs and built up a back story for those mechs that fit within the universe they designed. GW is famous for lifting entire premises and ideas then implementing them into their universe. A good example would be tyrannids, Sisters of Battle, etc... Tyrannids are a direct rip-off of the work of HG Geiger and Ridley Scott. Sisters of Battle are a rip-off of Renegade Nuns with Guns RPG first published in 1989. The first Codex: Sisters of Battle was published in 1997. Tau are the greys popularized by UFO stories and so on and so forth.

My favorite is GW claiming trademark status of the word Space Marine, which was first used by Bob Olsen in 1932. Yes, GW has made a legal claim to the word Space Marine and is fighting legally to protect it. GW doesn't create anything new, but steals from others freely then claiming they invented it. This is the difference between BattleTech and Thefthammer.

This is idiotic, the tyranids as first designed were vaguely visually influenced by Geigers work but their storyline, origins, color pallate, and place within the gamespace were radically different. Sisters of battle didn't rip of nuns with guns, nuns with guns ripped off every goofy post apoc exploitation movie from the 70's and 80's. They were hardly original with their game that was A SPOOF OF A GENRE.

Also, you can trademark terms that have been uttered before. Apple certainly didn't come up with Apples, and the Whopper is a common term that's trademarked as a sandwich. Battletech would probably have stolen a lot more than it already did, but when all you have to do is search a thesaurus to name your weekly mech that looks like a man made out of boxes with no perspective you don't have to be very inventive or referential. Battletech also died because it was bland, had terrible art, and the setting was a nonsense, racist, byzantine soap opera.

Edited by Shumabot, 14 June 2013 - 12:27 PM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Shumabot, on 14 June 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

You know, except when they got sued for literally stealing other peoples designs and ideas.

It was illegally purchased on the cheap from a company that didn't have the rights to sell the property. Just because money changed hands doesn't mean it was legal, nor does it mean they weren't perfectly aware that the company they were buying the designs from wasn't the company with the TV show AIRING AT THE SAME TIME IN AMERICA.

The lawsuit you mention was before the lawsuit between Big West/Studio Vue vs. Tatsunoko in Japan. The lawsuit between HG and FASA was resolved out of court back before the ownership of who owns what between Big West/Studio Nue and Tatsunoko was resolved. If the case was taken to court now, HG would lose since the US courts are required to use the Japanese rulings.

The designs that FASA purchased from Studio Nue was legal, not illegal as you claim, as the Japanese courts' ruling backs up FASA's claims not HG's.

Shumabot, on 14 June 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

This is idiotic, the tyranids as first designed were vaguely visually influenced by Geigers work but their storyline, origins, color pallate, and place within the gamespace were radically different. Sisters of battle didn't rip of nuns with guns, nuns with guns ripped off every goofy post apoc exploitation movie from the 70's and 80's. They were hardly original with their game that was A SPOOF OF A GENRE.

Also, you can trademark terms that have been uttered before. Apple certainly didn't come up with Apples, and the Whopper is a common term that's trademarked as a sandwich. Battletech would probably have stolen a lot more than it already did, but when all you have to do is search a thesaurus to name your weekly mech that looks like a man made out of boxes with no perspective you don't have to be very inventive or referential. Battletech also died because it was bland, had terrible art, and the setting was a nonsense, racist, byzantine soap opera.

You can claim otherwise, but the fact remains that GW stole from a lot of people and made a profit off of it. Tyranids were always inspired by HG Geiger's work and their storyline was lifted from Ridley Scott's vision for Alien. This is evident by the earlier comics and books that Scott signed off on and how the aliens grew to be a galaxy spanning threat to everything long before GW put in the Tyranids.

They lifted the entire concept of nuns with guns from Renegade Nuns with Guns since GW, as an importer, imported the game to the UK. They did the same thing with using Judge Dredd in Rogue Trader and other games they had a license to put out.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 14 June 2013 - 12:44 PM.

[Shumabot]

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The lawsuit you mention was before the lawsuit between Big West/Studio Vue vs. Tatsunoko in Japan. The lawsuit between HG and FASA was resolved out of court back before the ownership of who owns what between Big West/Studio Nue and Tatsunoko was resolved. If the case was taken to court now, HG would lose since the US courts are required to use the Japanese rulings.

The designs that FASA purchased from Studio Nue was legal, not illegal as you claim, as the Japanese courts' ruling backs up FASA's claims not HG's.

Except they had to settle it in court, ergo what they did violated business law and was forcibly settled with a payout in a civil court. That's not legal, that's not "on the level" that's "oops, we got caught, better pay money until this goes away".

As for the case being taken to court now, that's totally irrelevant since this occurred over two decades ago and most of the involved parties don't actually exist in a fashion that would be similar to how they existed then. International IP law is also much different now.

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You can claim otherwise, but the fact remains that GW stole from a lot of people and made a profit off of it.

Cite an example, one. just one. If all you have is "Well that looks kinda like this thing" then you have nothing and don't know what intellectual property theft is.

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Tyranids were always inspired by HG Geiger's work and their storyline was lifted from Ridley Scott's vision for Alien. This is evident by the earlier comics and books that Scott signed off on and how the aliens grew to be a galaxy spanning threat to everything long before GW put in the Tyranids.

Which has no relevance to the tyranids at all. Riddley scotts feral and animalist alien race with no ships, no controlling intelligence, one specific form of breeding, and a standard and set visual style has nothing to do with GWs extragalactic bee swarm that eats planets and comes in a million different shapes and sizes.



This is not riddley scotts Alien.

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They lifted the entire concept of nuns with guns from Renegade Nuns with Guns since GW, as an importer, imported the game to the UK. They did the same thing with using Judge Dredd in Rogue Trader and other games they had a license to put out.

So now we're no longer using the term theft as theft in any legalistic sense, just what is vaguely "similar". I trust you get mad about marvel comics stealing the idea of "superheros" and transformers for stealing the idea of "transforming robots". Also, I can't believe you're still running with the nuns and guns angle, fetishwear women in post apocalyptic settings has been a trope of the film and gaming industry since the 60's. Nuns and guns was literally a spoof of something, you can not steal a concept from something that is spoofing that concept, that is absolute nonsense.


For whatever hate you may have for early GW's constant references in it's artwork and themes (and there were many (almost every Schwarzenegger film star is a GW character somewhere and one of the primarchs is named Micheal Sheen) they have never "stolen" anything. They've taken concepts and altered them significantly, and in their modern incarnations GWs two settings are unique, deep, and wholly different from their competitors.

What has battletech done in the last 20 years to evolve and change with the times, precisely? Other than get sold four times and drive two companies out of business.

Edited by Shumabot, 14 June 2013 - 01:03 PM.

[Adridos]

Shumabot, on 14 June 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

It was illegally purchased on the cheap from a company that didn't have the rights to sell the property. Just because money changed hands doesn't mean it was legal, nor does it mean they weren't perfectly aware that the company they were buying the designs from wasn't the company with the TV show AIRING AT THE SAME TIME IN AMERICA.

They licensed the thing from the guys who created the designs... how more legal can you get than that? That studio is called Studio Nue (Armored Core, anyone?) and they had teh full right to sell those designs:
https://groups.googl...7E/FG7uKla6XcQJ


Also: http://kotaku.com/59...nearly-15-years
Macross fans love Harmony Gold as much as we do and the real owners of teh property just don't wnat to fight them on the US soil, where as a company created by lawyers, they have a big advantage. Greedy ********.

[B0oN]

Imperial Guard uses : Deathstrike Vortex missile !

BT regiment vanishes off the face of the earth, Deathstrike was super effective !

Poor sods ... BattleMechs in the Warp.... Dark Mechanicum will be pleased to have new toys to tinker with.

[Shumabot]

Quote

They licensed the thing from the guys who created the designs... how more legal can you get than that? That studio is called Studio Nue (Armored Core, anyone?) and they had teh full right to sell those designs:
https://groups.googl...7E/FG7uKla6XcQJ

I dunno, if I walked up to Bad Robot and bought the designs for the starship enterprise and threw them into my game do you think CBS or Paramount might get a little annoyed? Studio Nue has the rights to the designs, but not the rights to the macross universe, which legalistically ties their hands since it's easily argued (and has been argued in courts repeatedly) that the two are one and the same. It's a terrible contract.

Along came FASA wanting cheap designs and Nue sold them to a foreign body inadvisably. The deal wasn't on the level and was mired in court cases forever after. If only BT hadn't tried to lift the designs of a competing sci fi property in the first place and actually been original. That's what this is all about, isn't it? That BT is the one that isn't grabbing other peoples material? It certainly seems like they did their best to do exactly that.

Quote

Also: http://kotaku.com/59...nearly-15-years
Macross fans love Harmony Gold as much as we do and the real owners of teh property just don't wnat to fight them on the US soil, where as a company created by lawyers, they have a big advantage. Greedy ********.

Yeah, creative licensing can suck sometimes, and it's certainly a place where a lot of people get hurt in a lot of ways. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Edited by Shumabot, 14 June 2013 - 01:33 PM.

[Adridos]

Shumabot, on 14 June 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

I dunno, if I walked up to Bad Robot and bought the designs for the starship enterprise and threw them into my game do you think CBS or Paramount might get a little annoyed? Studio Nue has the rights to the designs, but not the rights to the macross universe, which legalistically ties their hands since it's easily argued (and has been argued in courts repeatedly) that the two are one and the same. It's a terrible contract.

If only BT hadn't tried to lift the designs of a competing sci fi property in the first place and actually been original. That's what this is all about, isn't it? That BT is the one that isn't grabbing other peoples material? It certainly seems like they did their best to do exactly that.

They have the right to the design, I buy the license to the design, I can use the design... that's how it should work. If it doesn't, it is called corruption and who knows what. Legally, morally and realistically, I'm in the right to use it.

As far as BT being "original" goes, you seem to forget at what day and age the thing was created. No artist ever drew mecha in the sense they needed for their game outside Japan. Either you hire a Japanese who will then draw them for you, or buy the drawn thing from a Japanese who'd selling them.

[Shumabot]

Quote

They have the right to the design, I buy the license to the design, I can use the design... that's how it should work. If it doesn't, it is called corruption and who knows what. Legally, morally and realistically, I'm in the right to use it.

Legally, no. You're not. This is why contracts are long and complex things, because weasel wording like that is prevalent and everyone always wants what they want.

Quote

As far as BT being "original" goes, you seem to forget at what day and age the thing was created. No artist ever drew mecha in the sense they needed for their game outside Japan. Either you hire a Japanese who will then draw them for you, or buy the drawn thing from a Japanese who'd selling them.

That's funny because mechs were a western staple in the 70's and 80's just as they were in japan. They featured constantly in cartoons and comics. Licensing Japanese designs and having your 5 year old do the rest of the art was a lot cheaper than paying an artist to do design work though.

Edited by Shumabot, 14 June 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[Nerroth]

Shumabot, on 14 June 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

I dunno, if I walked up to Bad Robot and bought the designs for the starship enterprise and threw them into my game do you think CBS or Paramount might get a little annoyed? Studio Nue has the rights to the designs, but not the rights to the macross universe, which legalistically ties their hands since it's easily argued (and has been argued in courts repeatedly) that the two are one and the same. It's a terrible contract.

That concept in and of itself shows how the licensing such ideas and designs for outside use has evolved over the past few decades.

Back in the 70s, the process which saw the Star Fleet Technical Manual lead both to Lou Zocchi's first scale miniatures and to Amarillo Design Bureau's development of Star Fleet Battles was somewhat convoluted; but not to the extent that Paramount (once they started paying attention to Star Trek as a franchise once again) felt like crushing out of existence. Instead, a deal was made with ADB that allowed SFB to continue (so long as it made sure to "colour within the lines" laid down by Paramount; no "on-screen" characters, no new Franchise-developed species introduced post-1979, no elements from the original source material not already in SFB by the time the deal was signed, etc.) and to eventually evolve into the basis for the broader Star Fleet Universe as seen in the present day.

But if someone tried to approach Paramount/CBS today in 2013 and asked to get the same kind of deal now which ADB got once their own deal was signed, they'd be laughed out of the building.


I suppose one could argue that the SFU and the BT universe are a study in contrasts. Things could have gone very differently for ADB back in those early days, but the conditions were right to allow for the deal that has let the SFU thrive for the last three decades and more. BT, however, was caught up in a more convoluted (and intractable) set of circumstances, and has paid the price for this ever since matters came to a head in the 1990s.

But for what it's worth, I prefer BT to focus on the "home-grown" designs, ones intended from the ground up to work in this setting, rather than get too caught up on what it's "missing" courtesy of the legal issues surrounding the Unseen.

Edited by Nerroth, 14 June 2013 - 02:32 PM.

[ElysianHarbinger]

Vadim Krasvanya, on 14 June 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

I like how I can go into a 40k thread anywhere and see you talking about your psychic flying Dreadnoughts, Harby.

. . . . . Little Anime Girls all around us. . . . . .

[Kyone Akashi]

Generally, I disdain these "who would win" setting comparisons. Because they just don't work - because we lack the necessary data to directly put item A from Battletech next to item B from 40k and clearly say "this is stronger" or "that would penetrate this". It usually boils down to a bunch of fans defending what they like more.

As for all the rage about who stole from what ... let's be real, just about every franchise at least takes some heavy inspiration from something else. And anyone who believes 40k never did needs to compare Tyranids before StarCraft to Tyranids after StarCraft, or look how the Arbites look like Judge Dredd, how Catachans are all a bunch of John Rambos (especially the Catachan called "Marbo" - rearrange the letters a bit, if you will...) - although actually most stuff in 40k is not referencing some other franchise but real world history, and quite heavily.

All that said ... what's the problem? Just like there should be no need denying it, there is also no need to actually feel like it has to be denied. It's not a bad thing. Everybody copies from somewhere, and nothing is entirely new. The real art lies in copying good, in a way that all the stuff you ripped off from somewhere else results in something new that is unique and cool in its own right. And GW has succeeded in this task.

At the end, I like both Battletech as well as 40k. However, I have to say I might enjoy Battletech (as a setting) a bit more as it isn't as fantastical and "out of touch" as 40k. Plus, Battletech actually has a canon, whilst 40k employs the copout of legends, myths and half-truths to deal with background conflicts and basically render any interpretation just as valid (or just as useless, if you're looking for a consistent background).

[Melcyna]

Only problem of course is that Battletech novel were horrendous honestly...

i've yet to read a single Battletech materials that gave a great character, or story, and frankly most of them were seriously forgettable.

40K as silly and out of touch it may be (40K novels were about as bad as Star Wars when it comes inconsistency) still gave me things like Ciaphas Cain series that amused me for many reasons.

So while 40K is just as bad as the other soft sci fi etc with consistency and all, it had one quality BT sadly lacks in it's novel... it was entertaining, and that's really all i wanted from soft sci fi.

Gameplay wise though i'd probably agree as far as regular 40K line is concerned,
but the 40K's Apocalypse is by far more entertaining to me than either regular 40K or BT due to it's sheer massive scale and scope plus the variety of units i can field (i do love a game field where i actually can use my entire spectrum of army and where i actually need all of them)

Edited by Melcyna, 15 June 2013 - 02:26 AM.

[Zerberus]

To me the OP reads like: "Who would win, a toddler with a squirtgun or the Red Army ca 1985?"

[WonderSparks]

Even having only read one book about 40K, I think I can say with confidence that if a BattleMech were to engage a Titan, the latter one would be victorious. >w>

[Kyone Akashi]

Melcyna, on 15 June 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

i've yet to read a single Battletech materials that gave a great character, or story, and frankly most of them were seriously forgettable.
40K as silly and out of touch it may be (40K novels were about as bad as Star Wars when it comes inconsistency) still gave me things like Ciaphas Cain series that amused me for many reasons.

Hah, that's how perceptions and taste can differ, I suppose.

I disliked the Cain novels specifically for how much they fly in the face of the background descriptions from the original authors of the setting, and for pretty much being a satire in the vein of Blackadder or Hogan's Heroes. Don't get me wrong, funny books are all well and nice, but personally when I'm reading a story like that I'd rather have the humorous bits inserted in a way that actually fit in with the world.

The majority of 40k stories I've seen are "bolter ****", and the more complex world of Battletech with its political intrigue and deeper characterization was a nice change of pace for me. Although, of course, I'm sure that it very much depends on the individual author - just like the Cain books are a deviation from the 40k standard fare, I'm certain that there are different styles between BT novels as well. In fact, I have already noticed three different styles of narration/writing, and found authors that I like more than others.

This is what I'd recommend to any reader regardless of the setting: get your hands on stories by author, and then look whose style fits your taste the most. In 40k, the best way to do so are the various short story compilations. With BT, I suppose you just have to dive right in - although websites such as amazon routinely offer excerpts for you to get an idea.

[Adridos]

Kyone Akashi, on 15 June 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

This is what I'd recommend to any reader regardless of the setting: get your hands on stories by author, and then look whose style fits your taste the most. In 40k, the best way to do so are the various short story compilations. With BT, I suppose you just have to dive right in - although websites such as amazon routinely offer excerpts for you to get an idea.

Don't forget Battlecorps free stuff: http://www.battlecor...C2/fiction.html

[Skadi]

This is sorta unfair comparison... in wh40K most armys have nearly unlimited resources... imperial guard, chaos, necrons, tyranids... which isn't the case in battletech....
it also doesn't help that wh40k's idea of a "mech" is a walking fortress that towers over battlefields and can obliterate forces miles away, and when in doubt exterminates, because why try when you can just pull up to a planet and wipe out everything on it?


also warpstorms, and I wont even get into that.

Edited by Skadi, 15 June 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Skylarr, on 13 June 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

I have never really played Warhammer 40k. Friends of mine and players in my unit argue which would win.

ProtoMech vs Breadnought

Elemental vs power Armor

So Warhammer 40k vs Battletech (3k).

The Imperium of Man has around 37,000 years of technological superiority over the Clans. Elementals, whose main armament (a small laser) has an optimal range of 90 (NINETY!) meters, could be taken down by modern military technology.

[Adridos]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 15 June 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

So Warhammer 40k vs Battletech (3k).

The Imperium of Man has around 37,000 years of technological superiority over the Clans. Elementals, whose main armament (a small laser) has an optimal range of 90 (NINETY!) meters, could be taken down by modern military technology.

Well, it's not clearly 37 000 if you account for the massive technological regression that happened in the Imperium.