95 replies to this topic

[Melcyna]

Kyone Akashi, on 15 June 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Hah, that's how perceptions and taste can differ, I suppose.

I disliked the Cain novels specifically for how much they fly in the face of the background descriptions from the original authors of the setting, and for pretty much being a satire in the vein of Blackadder or Hogan's Heroes. Don't get me wrong, funny books are all well and nice, but personally when I'm reading a story like that I'd rather have the humorous bits inserted in a way that actually fit in with the world.

The majority of 40k stories I've seen are "bolter ****", and the more complex world of Battletech with its political intrigue and deeper characterization was a nice change of pace for me. Although, of course, I'm sure that it very much depends on the individual author - just like the Cain books are a deviation from the 40k standard fare, I'm certain that there are different styles between BT novels as well. In fact, I have already noticed three different styles of narration/writing, and found authors that I like more than others.

This is what I'd recommend to any reader regardless of the setting: get your hands on stories by author, and then look whose style fits your taste the most. In 40k, the best way to do so are the various short story compilations. With BT, I suppose you just have to dive right in - although websites such as amazon routinely offer excerpts for you to get an idea.

Fair enough, though... i cannot for the live of me remember when BT ever had deeper characterization considering they act in a suicidal manner (both politically like Victor Davion, or militarily which is just a general problem with BT as they never made a single militarily sensible action) or are either Garry Stu or Mary Sue so much that it kills any willpower i had to continue reading them other than to just finish the book so i can put it away.

Not that 40K is much better, but whereas i can remember the characters i am entertained with in 40K books (mainly since they usually are written by the same author so it lends credence to your idea as well), in BT i can hardly recall anyone mildly interesting... with the possible exception of some of the Liao's family members in the novel.

It's quite depressing when i find some of the crazy antics of Liao family member the most interesting part of the characterization out of an entire BT series.

[TB Azrael]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 13 June 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Yep. WH40k and BT are incomparable. First of all, the Empire would take one look at mechs and call in the Titan legions. The smallest "scout" titan is around the size of an Atlas, fasters, and capable of killing entire tank divisions.

The big ones are capable of firing munitions the size of a SDR.

Actually a Warhound would be significantly larger than an Atlas, esp in bulk. But yea, a mass of Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Titans and space bomardment - much as I love a mass of Mechs, it's a no win there.

[Melcyna]

TB Azrael, on 15 June 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Actually a Warhound would be significantly larger than an Atlas, esp in bulk. But yea, a mass of Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Titans and space bomardment - much as I love a mass of Mechs, it's a no win there.

it's not like it'll get to that stage... i mean 40K fleet meets BT 'fleet' if u can call it that, the result is going to be a somewhat predictable one sided massacre.. given the contrasting idea of what constitutes space combat in BT and what 40K space combat is along with the scale of said combat, or what constitutes planetary defense in 40K and what planetary defense amounts to in BT.

the 2 have sense of scale too far apart to be cross compared essentially, with BT being too tiny in general (seriously... taking over an entire planet with millions of population with just a mere dozen or more of mechs and tiny contingent of infantry??? BT's idea of warfare is pretty funny), while 40K going in the opposite direction and going overkill in most cases that one would be surprised they managed to actually develop any civilization at all given the insanity of their bureaucracy and population.

[Kyone Akashi]

Melcyna, on 15 June 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

or are either Garry Stu or Mary Sue so much that it kills any willpower i had to continue reading them other than to just finish the book so i can put it away.

From what I've read, there are few things more MarySue than the Space Wolves. Or the Primarchs, at least how they're written in the Horus Heresy novels. *shudder*

I suppose that's my second big problem with the 40k novels, next to the inconsistencies. I have characters I like in both franchises, but with Warhammer, just about everything is overshadowed by the Space Marines, and I've never found it easy to like either characters or factions that have no flaws.
To be fair, there are Marine Chapters that are not like that (for example, I've grown to like the Celestial Lions), but those just don't seem to be as popular. The fan favourites are the unbeatable pseudo-cool half-gods who can do no wrong and win every battle with minimal casualties. With Battletech, at least I know I only have to avoid Stackpole, but with 40k it's like 90% of the fiction is like that.

In fairness, however, I should add that the graphic novels, at least from what I've seen, are much better and somewhat more complex / less dull. It's ironic that comics have an advantage over novels there, but I could actually see me recommending them to interested people.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 16 June 2013 - 12:16 AM.

[Melcyna]

The SM in general aren't exactly a source of good materials to begin with what with their polarizing setting,

but the part i love the most i guess is that in 40K, i still have a fair amount of options outside SM materials with IG naturally being the most common, and back when they released FireWarrior game, a novel following him thus written with Tau point of view, or hell orks even if they are not the main characters in the novel usually (sometimes they are so prominent they might as well be one).

which incidentally is perhaps why i don't have any problem with stark humor in 40K, they have an ENTIRE race that never took war more than being genuine fun (win or lose) so i don't see a problem with humor in 40K like in Ciaphas Cain in general since the whole 'grim dark future' setting sure as hell don't seems to stop the orks from doing things 'for fun', and given half the humans in 40K are certifiable insane anyhow there sure as hell aint many reason why they all will follow the 'serious grim dark' mindset.

the most depressing part with BT to me, is that i don't have that options... the ENTIRE IS house members are positively paper thin character wise, with the most character they get being 'i stab you, no i backstab you first', and since they are all practically horrible, the Liao ends up being the best one by the single virtue that most of them are pretty insane anyway from the start so paper thin or not at least they are amusing.

and the Clans... dumber still... that it seriously hurt.

[Surtr]

Skylarr, on 13 June 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

I have never really played Warhammer 40k. Friends of mine and players in my unit argue which would win.

ProtoMech vs Breadnought

Elemental vs power Armor

Breadnoughts are easy to knock out, just bring a heavy appetite and some good butter.

[Kyone Akashi]

Melcyna, on 16 June 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

The SM in general aren't exactly a source of good materials to begin with what with their polarizing setting, but the part i love the most i guess is that in 40K, i still have a fair amount of options outside SM materials with IG naturally being the most common, and back when they released FireWarrior game, a novel following him thus written with Tau point of view, or hell orks even if they are not the main characters in the novel usually (sometimes they are so prominent they might as well be one).

Absolutely. Shame that this stuff just isn't as popular, or at least does not receive the same marketing and support from the company. Lots of wasted potential.

Melcyna, on 16 June 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

which incidentally is perhaps why i don't have any problem with stark humor in 40K, they have an ENTIRE race that never took war more than being genuine fun (win or lose) so i don't see a problem with humor in 40K like in Ciaphas Cain in general since the whole 'grim dark future' setting sure as hell don't seems to stop the orks from doing things 'for fun', and given half the humans in 40K are certifiable insane anyhow there sure as hell aint many reason why they all will follow the 'serious grim dark' mindset.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with humour. I've read the Ork "Deff Skwadron" comic for example, it was great fun, and I'd recommend it to anyone.
What I don't like about the Cain books is that their contents conflict with established background and are not actually possible if you go by studio material. But this is, of course, a level of consistency that 40k does not even try to achieve, contrary to Battletech which actually has a canon policy.

Humour is fine, but not "at any price". If the author wanted to write a funny book, perhaps he should have simply picked a character where it is a little more believable, with events that actually might happen. Even Hogan's Heroes paid more attention to realism.

Melcyna, on 16 June 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

the most depressing part with BT to me, is that i don't have that options... the ENTIRE IS house members are positively paper thin character wise, with the most character they get being 'i stab you, no i backstab you first', and since they are all practically horrible, the Liao ends up being the best one by the single virtue that most of them are pretty insane anyway from the start so paper thin or not at least they are amusing.

Huh, I guess it's a matter of perspective then. I'm an avowing fan of Theodore Kurita and Katana Tormark, and neither of them is a backstabber - they just have to deal with them. Which, in my opinion, is a degree of realism I'm missing from 40k, where way too many factions have "carte blanche" to do what they want.

Not sure what BT novels you've read so far.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 16 June 2013 - 10:06 AM.

[Melcyna]

Not sure what exactly conflict with established background though, especially considering each PDF and IG regiments are effectively a unique force which is done on purpose technically not to make them easier for lore but rather to make it easier for any players that field them in the gameplay to establish their own background for it.

for BT i read up to about the last stages of FedCom civil war when Victor is pretty much mopping up, my roommate didn't have any book beyond that and i think i can understand why... i don't exactly want to continue reading considering what i've read till then either.

[Ol Dirty Bastard]

The idea of comparing a Space Marine or any variation of one, against an Elemental is kinda laughable. What the sad thing is, Im a long long time fan of BT, and only a fan of 40K for a few years, and obviously I'm loyal to the BT universe. At the same time, I have no doubt in saying that a Space Marine would roflstomp an elemental on its best day.

Elementals have some comparable weapons, but theres no way to tell if a small laser does the damage of a Lazcannon, or if its more comparable to a single hit by a plasma rifle. Depending on the effect of the weapon, and the ability of the armor to withstand damage, it could go either way. However I would even go so far as to say the Small Laser probably hits somewhere inbetween the damage of a Plasma Rifle, and the Lazcannon. Where I would also say that Ferro Fibrous armor is probably not as dense of a material as adamantium armor is. I would say that a bolter round, that explodes inside its victims, would do horrible damage to an elemental, which the basic life saving abilites of the elemental power armor would not be able to deal with. While the damage an elemental could do would be hardly a scratch by the time it died, lets say it did penetrate armor... The Space Marine's redundant organs, and the larraman cells would easily prevent major internal damage by the weaker weapon of the elemental.

Hand to hand combat might be a little closer paired, but i'd still give a good edge to the Space Marine, as they seem more agile, While the elementals claw gives it a good chance with the ability to quickly strip plates of armor.

[Melcyna]

Debating the two from the point of view of their likely effectiveness in actual combat is generally unfair though

neither are obviously sensible, but in the opposite direction that works in favor of 40K

BT treats war like a game, ludicrous unplausible rules, regimented battle and often nonsensical idea of warfare, and what they consider total warfare is laughable.

40K goes in the opposite direction and treat war like a mass orgy of incoherent violence with often nonsensical level of destruction and carnage that it's a wonder anyone had sanity left. Or at least that's what it would look like reading the codex, since the novel don't quite always paint things in that manner.

It's unfair in general since war is unfortunately chaos, and closer to what 40K has than what BT's idea of war is even as both are not sensible on it.

One can turn combatant used to the most chaotic war to fight and survive in a regimented game they call war in BT
But the opposite will not work if you throw BT into 40K's idea of war because you will be dead before you learn what it takes to survive an actual war filled with chaos and carnage at a scale closer to what one can expect of a conflict waged by interstellar power.

To give an idea of it,

Spoiler

if we want to compare an SM and an Elemental soldier... the equipment is actually the secondary factor to consider.

The first one that has to be asked is: Which one remains SANE as they fight against each other in a war, because a soldier that ceases to be sane or coherent is no longer an effective asset regardless of his equipment unless if the equipment itself is an autonomous asset.

And this is somewhat unfair since SM are generally portrayed as both physically superman like and having mental constitution capable of withstanding pure shock from a warfare that involves conflict against literal demons, essentially paladin expy bordering Gary Stu. While Elementals are just super soldiers not particularly exceptional compared to human spec ops other than his physical attributes.

Edited by Melcyna, 16 June 2013 - 08:37 PM.

[DBrando]

Incomparable but mixable

Marauder/Sentinel

http://imageshack.us...nalrendero.jpg/

[Vanguard319]

Sorry, BT actually has a vague concept of hope, whereas the entire universe in Warhammer 40k is literally being sucked into super hell. There is nothing that compares to the Chaos gods. Nicholas Kerensky thought he was a messiah, The god emperor of mankind is heavily implied to be the real deal.
The only faction in BT that MIGHT hold their own in the warhammer universe would be the Word of Blake, simply because they're complete and total religious warrior fanatics. (like 99% of the Imperium.)

Edited by Vanguard319, 17 June 2013 - 12:00 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Hm I'm pretty sure the Word Of Blake will give those Space Marines as well as the Imperial Army the hell of a fight.

At least because a ABC weapons will be as devasting in W40K as they are in BT.
Not to mention cybernetics and void battlearmor...

[Adridos]

[Blacktemplar223]

Kyone Akashi, on 16 June 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

From what I've read, there are few things more MarySue than the Space Wolves. Or the Primarchs, at least how they're written in the Horus Heresy novels. *shudder*

I suppose that's my second big problem with the 40k novels, next to the inconsistencies. I have characters I like in both franchises, but with Warhammer, just about everything is overshadowed by the Space Marines, and I've never found it easy to like either characters or factions that have no flaws.
To be fair, there are Marine Chapters that are not like that (for example, I've grown to like the Celestial Lions), but those just don't seem to be as popular. The fan favourites are the unbeatable pseudo-cool half-gods who can do no wrong and win every battle with minimal casualties. With Battletech, at least I know I only have to avoid Stackpole, but with 40k it's like 90% of the fiction is like that.

In fairness, however, I should add that the graphic novels, at least from what I've seen, are much better and somewhat more complex / less dull. It's ironic that comics have an advantage over novels there, but I could actually see me recommending them to interested people.

I'm currently working my way through some BT novels but I have read over 30 40k novels and I feel like you're off on a few points. First of all there's no correct or right faction in Warhammer either. The Imperium is a place of dissonance where the ones in power stay that way and the masses are merely meat for the grinder to advance themselves. Even the space marines are portrayed as not particularly caring of civilians or regular human beings in general(they try to mitigate this some in the Ultramarine's 6 books, and with the Tomb of Fire trilogy of the salamanders since they're portrayed as the most "caring" of space marines). There's even outright disdain towards regular humans and the imperium in general typically as a foil to the main space marine, who is more sympathetic though. The Cain novels ARE meant as a more lighthearted fun adventure but still retains canon for the most part. The main offenders for the 40k books are the tie-ins for the Dawn of War series where the books fly in the face of canon (bolters don't even work like they should). Also if you want more of a political intrigue then by all means explore the Eisenhorn or Ravenor books where there are more character stories.

Also there are recent moves to not just be overshadowed by the Space marine perspective. They recently completed a trilogy of books for the Eldar and are now working on a trilogy for Dark Eldar. Not to mention the longest running series for 40k books is the Gaunt's Ghosts which is somewhere in the range of 12-15 books at this point.

I do agree with your point of the author being a driving force. I love Dan Abnett's books because he's probably the best writer black library has in their stables. Graham McNeil is alright and there are some others that have some decent promise about them.

As far as BT novels go, I've finished 2 of the grey death books (mercenary star and price of glory, didn't know there was one more prior to mercenary. . . ) and am a little ways into lethal heritage. I found the mech battles in grey death to be wildly inconsistent, where in one battle he'll drop a mech in a few shots, and he can take a lot of damage with no effect, yet the situation will reverse just for the convenience of the story in the next battle with the same mechs. Also there are times where it feels like it's trying to juggle too many characters in the story, or wastes page space with useless back story. for instance in price of glory there's considerable page space given to a mech apprentice (forget her name) who's mech's still in the drop ship and she really wants to get it back. there's easily 3-4 pages worth of her story that could be cut since it has no real effect to the story and given to something else, but it just seems like fluff to pad it out. Overall I've enjoyed the books but sometimes they almost feel like an advertisement for different mech weapons or feel they're forced to include some non mech parts. The character development or lack thereof in grey death so far (again still lacking 4 books) is just disappointing.

TL:DR version:
-I agree that authors heavily influence the quality.
-I disagree with you that 40k is marysue and SMs are always right, because they aren't (otherwise there wouldn't be dirty renegades)
-I find the BT novels I've read so far lack polish and often have pointless fluff. black library used to have a problem with polish as well but that's been corrected here in the past few years

Edited by Blacktemplar223, 17 June 2013 - 10:12 AM.

[Kyone Akashi]

Melcyna, on 16 June 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

Not sure what exactly conflict with established background though, especially considering each PDF and IG regiments are effectively a unique force which is done on purpose technically not to make them easier for lore but rather to make it easier for any players that field them in the gameplay to establish their own background for it.

PDF and IG, but not the Commissariat, not the Schola, and not the Sisters of Battle. The way Cain behaves and thinks, he would not even have been allowed to become a Commissar, but apparently the author did not know or realize that the Schola produces mostly civil servants and, apart from brainwashing everyone, only allows the most martial minded progena to progress into the Imperium's military forces. Or Mitchell just did not care as it'd ruin his "great idea".

Mind you, I'm a veteran Sisters player, so I have a particular dislike on the Cain novels for how twisted they portray this faction rather than sticking to what it says in the Codex fluff.

Blacktemplar223, on 17 June 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

First of all there's no correct or right faction in Warhammer either. The Imperium is a place of dissonance where the ones in power stay that way and the masses are merely meat for the grinder to advance themselves.

Oh, that wasn't what I meant when I was using the term "Mary-Sue". It's just that the Space Marines are such a dominant theme in the franchise that few authors risk portraying them in a way that does not flatter them. They are the most common protagonists, able to score ridiculous victories that go against everything the background stands for (for example, the Space Wolves taking on and triumphing over an entire Segmentum worth of Imperial Navy forces in blatant disregard of the fluff that states they should not even be able to win a one-on-one), yet when Imperial antagonists are required, authors most often pull out the Guard or the Sisters. When I look at Battletech, the portrayal of the factions quite simply strikes me as being far more balanced, and I kind of like that. To actually read about the Space Marines losing for a change one needs to pull out some very obscure GW studio sources, for the company has apparently adopted the freelance Black Library authors' stance as well.

Granted, from all I've heard the Space Marines are the most popular faction amongst players and sell the most models - yet for a good representation of the setting as a whole, Games Workshop's current model does not deliver. Which is kind of sad, as it wastes a huge amount of potential.

Blacktemplar223, on 17 June 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

The Cain novels ARE meant as a more lighthearted fun adventure but still retains canon for the most part. The main offenders for the 40k books are the tie-ins for the Dawn of War series where the books fly in the face of canon (bolters don't even work like they should).

Canon? Which canon? That's the next big problem - there ain't any, which is exactly why every author is allowed to come up with his own ideas, which of course leads to the many conflicts and contradictions between the sources.
Some fans and authors like this, but I for one prefer consistency. In this, Battletech managed to positively surprise me.

Blacktemplar223, on 17 June 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

I find the BT novels I've read so far lack polish and often have pointless fluff. black library used to have a problem with polish as well but that's been corrected here in the past few years

I'm sure there's lots of BT novels I would think likewise about. All I can say is that from everything I have read so far from both franchises, I like BT more. They just have more character, seem to delve more into the personalities of the people and the culture in which they grow up and that shapes them. Of course, I've only read six or so yet, and I don't even have an intention of getting all. For example, I don't think that Stackpole's books are on the same "wavelength" as my taste.
In case you keep on exploring those books, I do wish you the best of luck in finding (at least) one you like.

[Melcyna]

Sure Cain wouldn't technically be one assuming one actually can see through him

which is the whole point, he is a consummate liar and a very good one at it that Amberley is pretty much the only human that ever manages to see through what he is aside of being actually close enough to him to gain glimpse of what's underneath his mask.

Schola Progenia indoctrinates it's students but how likely it succeeds and how well it can actually mold it's students into what they want naturally varies just as much as the indoctrination itself varies depending on the one in charge (Ecclesiarchy only sets the key parts, and the exact implementation varies depending on who is in reign)

To be frank, while reading it i don't see what's against the established lore given that the entire process are vague in the established lore itself, and not surprising considering the size of the supposed Imperium and the amount of personnel involved which is overblown.

This incidentally is not a weakness imho, in fact the opposite (though the original purpose really was not for writers, but instead for players so they can come up with their own background for their forces that has much more lenient restrictions)

When you hard define things in the lore like BT sometimes did, you not only restrict yourself within the lore confine, but you also risk hoisting your own petard when you realize things defined in the lore DON'T MAKE SENSE...

ie: what happened with BT's science lore in particular, to the extent that they hired someone actually knowledgeable within the field to fix it as much as possible, needless to say it was such a mess that i don't envy the guy's job, it's akin to fixing a kindergarten's homework without scolding him, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Edited by Melcyna, 17 June 2013 - 05:57 PM.

[Haruspex Pariah]

Ha, never thought I'd see this come up in a Battletech forum.

The question of scale cannot be ignored. The sheer amount of force that can be commited in a Warhammer 40,000 campaign makes the Inner Sphere and Clan generals look positively stingy.

Specific to the OP's questions:

1) Depends on the model of ProtoMech. Dreadnoughts of a given faction have fairly similar stats but Protomechs can range from the Minotaur to the Harpy which are completely different

Eric Pryde, on 16 June 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

The idea of comparing a Space Marine or any variation of one, against an Elemental is kinda laughable. What the sad thing is, Im a long long time fan of BT, and only a fan of 40K for a few years, and obviously I'm loyal to the BT universe. At the same time, I have no doubt in saying that a Space Marine would roflstomp an elemental on its best day.

Elementals have some comparable weapons, but theres no way to tell if a small laser does the damage of a Lazcannon, or if its more comparable to a single hit by a plasma rifle. Depending on the effect of the weapon, and the ability of the armor to withstand damage, it could go either way. However I would even go so far as to say the Small Laser probably hits somewhere inbetween the damage of a Plasma Rifle, and the Lazcannon. Where I would also say that Ferro Fibrous armor is probably not as dense of a material as adamantium armor is. I would say that a bolter round, that explodes inside its victims, would do horrible damage to an elemental, which the basic life saving abilites of the elemental power armor would not be able to deal with. While the damage an elemental could do would be hardly a scratch by the time it died, lets say it did penetrate armor... The Space Marine's redundant organs, and the larraman cells would easily prevent major internal damage by the weaker weapon of the elemental.

Hand to hand combat might be a little closer paired, but i'd still give a good edge to the Space Marine, as they seem more agile, While the elementals claw gives it a good chance with the ability to quickly strip plates of armor.

Umm...you just said that you rated the small laser between a plasma rifle and lascannon. Plasma rifles as I recall are rare weapons specifically used to counter Space Marine armor both on the tabletop and in the fluff. And you call it a weaker weapon? Hardly a scratch? And the bolter is basically a rapid-firing mini-rocket launcher whereas the Elemental armor can tank a single shot from a five-ton laser cannon (the large laser). If you follow the stats closely the bolter has marginally better armor-piercing powers than a machine gun. Even if you approach it from fluff it's laughable to think that a bolter can hit an Elemental harder than a light autocannon!

What you're saying doesn't add up. If both of them were naked with knives I'd give it to the Space Marine easily, but fully geared I'd give them 1:1 odds.

[B0oN]

DBrando, on 16 June 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

Incomparable but mixable

Marauder/Sentinel

http://imageshack.us...nalrendero.jpg/

Yuss !
The immortal Imperator of the Starleague is proud of your achievement ... wait ... what ?
kekeke

[Aslena]

There is actually a gaming store near where I live that has games going all the time with the store staff doing the DM roll. They have mixed D&D, Battletech, Warhammer 40K, and will add any other PC from any other game they sell into the game. It's a worlds collide type of thing. It is really awesome