459 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

PEEFsmash, on 14 June 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

I am entirely convinced that this cone of fire crap is a plot by low-level players to flatten the skill curve of aiming making anyone's average aim as good as those with superb aim, and it will certainly do that. All of the complaints are, more or less, "I didn't hear about this in the 30 year old books I worship like the bible" or "you shouldn't be able to hit 1 spot with so many weapons!". That's because you are getting killed by people who can hit one spot, but you are unable to do the same.

I am still yet to hear from a single top level player who thinks we need to nerf aiming via cone of fire, and until I do, this looks like a low-level pitchfork grabbing uprising against people who can aim.

well, I placed 10th out of several thousands in the Medium Weight Class during the first and most played tournament, and I think this game would do much better to limit the amounts of massive damage grouped weapons can do to one location for the fact that the damage model we use in this game is based off of the 30 year rules you disdain so much, rules that did not account for every weapon on a 'Mech being able to hit one location. Now that we can, there's an imbalance between weapon systems and DOT/area weapons are at a distinct disadvantage to massed fire from boated large systems.

Edited by DocBach, 14 June 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[Lostdragon]

Vodrin Thales, on 14 June 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Gauss can be balanced with a greatly reduced rate of fire for DPS well below other weapons. Most other pinpoint weapons can be balanced with heat generation, or possibly in the case of autocannons making the heavier once fire bursts instead of a single shell. Cone of fire is not needed and I guarantee that attempting to implement it in this game will result in a game that is much less fun for the majority of players than the current version (as flawed as the current game is).

So the solution is to make every weapon either work like lasers currently do or have a very long CD? No thanks, I would prefer weapons that are different from one another and fast paced to homogeneous and slow ones.

[DaZur]

PEEFsmash, on 14 June 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

I am entirely convinced that this cone of fire crap is a plot by low-level players to flatten the skill curve of aiming making anyone's average aim as good as those with superb aim, and it will certainly do that. All of the complaints are, more or less, "I didn't hear about this in the 30 year old books I worship like the bible" or "you shouldn't be able to hit 1 spot with so many weapons!". That's because you are getting killed by people who can hit one spot, but you are unable to do the same.

I am still yet to hear from a single top level player who thinks we need to nerf aiming via cone of fire, and until I do, this looks like a low-level pitchfork grabbing uprising against people who can aim.

Really... you're going to try to equate positioning your cursor over a spot on your screen and clicking to a high-level skill that not everyone is capable of? Never-mind the fact that so long as your torso aligned your weapons converge to point accuracy...

Then on top of that you're practically waving your hands and uttering "TRO, TT and canon are irrelevant" like it's some fancy Jedi mind-trick to essentially get around the fact that this is a real-time soft-sim based entirely upon those same 30 year-old books...

It's not about "balance" or leveling the playing field... It's about correcting the imbalance the current game mechanics encourages that break the meta and disenfranchise playing anything that's not a high-yield build.

Edited by DaZur, 14 June 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[White Panther]

What about making aiming more difficult somehow without using a cone of fire or anything that will randomize aiming? There has to be some other options. I'm just coming from a viewpoint where I want a different feel than mw4. Right now the game feels too much like mw4 to me in regards to shooting.

[PEEFsmash]

tenderloving, on 14 June 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

NOBODY is unable to hit in one spot under the current system.

YOU are not doing anything special to hit in one spot. If you are, then provide evidence.

You click, and the weapons hit; that's all there is. If anything the current system has a lower skill curve than a CoF/Limited convergence system would.

This post wasn't supposed to be about me, but if you must...
The evidence is the fact that I win 95%+ of my light duels because of aim. Other top players ALWAYS win 1v1s vs opponents that are using the same mech. Most people in this game cannot aim well whatsoever, and top players can. Any dummy can strap on some PPCs to a Stalker...but why do almost all PPC stalkers suck? They are mostly terrible, even though their PPCs all go to the same place. They might go to the same place, but they miss. Why are there a thousand million poptart Highlanders, but there are only a hundred or so jumpsniping players that are really a threat. The reason is aim. You act like point and click is something that everyone can do, but the skill curve in this game shows that this isn't true. Most players think that because they hit sometimes, or spray damage all over a mech, they are "good at aiming." No, they aren't. Spectate the games of some of the top players and you will learn how bad layman's aim really is in comparison.

I absolutely love when low-level players pretend that aiming is easy and that everyone can do it perfectly well. The reason I love it is because people that say this contribute directly to my new campaign: #MakeEloPublic.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 14 June 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[DaZur]

Great... apparently now we have to nerf high-level mouseing skillz...

[Lostdragon]

Vodrin Thales, on 14 June 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Gauss can be balanced with a greatly reduced rate of fire for DPS well below other weapons. Most other pinpoint weapons can be balanced with heat generation, or possibly in the case of autocannons making the heavier once fire bursts instead of a single shell. Cone of fire is not needed and I guarantee that attempting to implement it in this game will result in a game that is much less fun for the majority of players than the current version (as flawed as the current game is).


That really is a weapon balance issue, not a pinpoint damage issue. When non-pinpoint damage weapons put out significantly more DPS than the pinpoint ones (due to heat generation or cooldowns) then we will not see the PPC/gauss combo as the king of the battlefield it is not.

I think making autocannons fire like lasers and giving weapons ridiculously long cooldowns would make the game less fun so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Weapon balance is a factor but if anything it is exacerbated by the underlying mechanic of pinpoint damage. Unless they nerf all pinpoint weapons into the ground then pinpoint damage will always determine which builds are dominant.

[New Day]

No.

[tenderloving]

PEEFsmash, on 14 June 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

This post wasn't supposed to be about me, but if you must...
The evidence is the fact that I win 95%+ of my light duels because of aim. Other top players ALWAYS win 1v1s vs opponents that are using the same mech. Most people in this game cannot aim well whatsoever, and top players can. Any dummy can strap on some PPCs to a Stalker...but why do almost all PPC stalkers suck? They are mostly terrible, even though their PPCs all go to the same place. They might go to the same place, but they miss. Why are there a thousand million poptart Highlanders, but there are only a hundred or so jumpsniping players that are really a threat. The reason is aim. You act like point and click is something that everyone can do, but the skill curve in this game shows that this isn't true. Most players think that because they hit sometimes, or spray damage all over a mech, they are "good at aiming." No, they aren't. Spectate the games of some of the top players and you will learn how bad layman's aim really is in comparison.

I absolutely love when low-level players pretend that aiming is easy and that everyone can do it perfectly well. The reason I love it is because people that say this contribute directly to my new campaign: #MakeEloPublic.

So wouldn't you continue to win 95%+ of your duels? The scummy noobs you are facing would still not hit you up close. The noobs piloting PPC Stalkers would miss the same percentage of their shots relative to you. Everything would be the same. If anything you would have MORE of an edge over a noob because you would understand the limitations of the convergence system, and you would time your shots better.

None of the things you mentioned would be negatively affected by Cone of Fire. If you are better now, you will still be better. A fight between 2 highly skilled opponents would still come down to positioning, timing, and their ability to spread incoming damage.

I absolutely love when people strengthen the opposition argument with their examples.

Edited by tenderloving, 14 June 2013 - 12:06 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

One Medic Army, on 14 June 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

I can hit one spot just as well as the so called "competitive players".

You would only know this if you had done repeated duels vs top players, but I'll let it go.

One Medic Army, on 14 June 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

Currently point damage weapons>>duration damage weapons>>spread damage weapons.
Point damage also means that smaller mechs are pretty much getting 1-shot, which is bad for gameplay in a non-respawn environment.

Something needs to be done...

I think you're right. You ready for my fix? Here it goes. 1: Increase SRM damage. 2: Reduce Laser heat. Here's the biggie that I haven't heard anyone else propose: Make PPCs a very short duration shot. .30 second beam. This way, we can keep the skill cap very high, let the player aim instead of having the game aim for us, and pinpoint damage would be significantly reduced, subject to torso twist, etc.

What do you think?

[Lostdragon]

PEEFsmash, on 14 June 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

This post wasn't supposed to be about me, but if you must...
The evidence is the fact that I win 95%+ of my light duels because of aim. Other top players ALWAYS win 1v1s vs opponents that are using the same mech. Most people in this game cannot aim well whatsoever, and top players can. Any dummy can strap on some PPCs to a Stalker...but why do almost all PPC stalkers suck? They are mostly terrible, even though their PPCs all go to the same place. They might go to the same place, but they miss. Why are there a thousand million poptart Highlanders, but there are only a hundred or so jumpsniping players that are really a threat. The reason is aim. You act like point and click is something that everyone can do, but the skill curve in this game shows that this isn't true. Most players think that because they hit sometimes, or spray damage all over a mech, they are "good at aiming." No, they aren't. Spectate the games of some of the top players and you will learn how bad layman's aim really is in comparison.

I absolutely love when low-level players pretend that aiming is easy and that everyone can do it perfectly well. The reason I love it is because people that say this contribute directly to my new campaign: #MakeEloPublic.

Well Doc has already proven he is a top tier player with verifiable information but all you can provide is anecdotal evidence of your own skills. I feel like I am above average ELO wise based on my win ratios and the tactics I see in matches, but honestly I could be wrong and so could you.

[El Bandito]

PEEFsmash, on 14 June 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

You would only know this if you had done repeated duels vs top players, but I'll let it go. I think you're right. You ready for my fix? Here it goes. 1: Increase SRM damage. 2: Reduce Laser heat. Here's the biggie that I haven't heard anyone else propose: Make PPCs a very short duration shot. .30 second beam. This way, we can keep the skill cap very high, let the player aim instead of having the game aim for us, and pinpoint damage would be significantly reduced, subject to torso twist, etc. What do you think?

If you want PPCs to have short duration beam then 0.5 second duration will make it more in line with the others.
0.3 is a bit too short. I still think convergence gives more authentic BT feel while getting rid of insta-pinpoint-long-range-sniping, IMO.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 June 2013 - 12:09 PM.

[Tombstoner]

Darren Tyler, on 14 June 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Lore wise there aren't. Lore wise there are no 6 ppc mechs (points at Stalker) but with the lack of restrictions on hardpoints there will be a mech with 3 gauss that someone comes up with. Trust me, there will. If a Stalker can handle 6 PPC's there will be a mech that can handle 3 gauss.

http://www.sarna.net...ne_%28Kraken%29

Easily modified under the existing hard point system to take advantage of the low heat... now people are saying gauss is op thus we need to increase the cool down to make it fair.

Bane variant 4 is equipped with 2x ultra -20's please explain how to balance that combo. 40-80 alpha or 80-160 within 4 seconds assuming you dont jam. This is the i win button of the future.


BTW

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thunder_Hawk

Edited by Tombstoner, 14 June 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[El Bandito]

Tombstoner, on 14 June 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...ne_%28Kraken%29 Easily modified under the existing hard point system to take advantage of the low heat... now people are saying gauss is op thus we need to increase the cool down to make it fair. Bane variant 4 is equipped with 2x ultra -20's please explain how to balance that combo. 40-80 alpha or 80-160 within 4 seconds assuming you dont jam. This is the i win button of the future.

This is why TT rules have hit chances. And this is why MWO must have convergence to stave off hyper accurate big alphas.

[Zylo]

I support most changes that hurt PPC boats and poptarts but I really don't want to introduce random hit chances with a cone of fire. A cone of fire would just encourage increased use of locking weapons which is just as bad for this game as concentrated damage or random hit chances due to cone of fire.

Convergence has been talking about by many players, I think the solution would be a player selected convergence range for torso mounted weapons with the exception of lasers since it would be rather easy for the lenses to adjust the convergence.

Take a dual AC/20 K2 for example, due to the torso mounted ballistic slots a player would need to select the convergence of the weapons and could do so using a slider that might go from 50m to 2000m. Let's say this player chooses 200m for the convergence of the AC/20s which means at ranges closer than 200m both shots might not hit the same location and at ranges beyond 200m the paths of each shot would cross in a sort of X pattern possibly missing completely.

If this system was applied to all ballistic weapons + PPCs this would force PPC boats to set their convergence and be stuck with it. If they wanted to snipe at long range they would have trouble concentrating damage on a mech that engaged at close range.

PPCs and ballistic weapons mounted in the arms would not be limited by fixed convergence like a torso mounted weapon.

[DocBach]

PEEFsmash, on 14 June 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

You would only know this if you had done repeated duels vs top players, but I'll let it go.


I think you're right. You ready for my fix? Here it goes. 1: Increase SRM damage. 2: Reduce Laser heat. Here's the biggie that I haven't heard anyone else propose: Make PPCs a very short duration shot. .30 second beam. This way, we can keep the skill cap very high, let the player aim instead of having the game aim for us, and pinpoint damage would be significantly reduced, subject to torso twist, etc.

What do you think?

How will that affect the game when Clan 'Mechs arrive and can put three Ultra AC/20 bursts in the same hole?

[Tombstoner]

DocBach, on 14 June 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

How will that affect the game when Clan 'Mechs arrive and can put three Ultra AC/20 bursts in the same hole?

Geee i wonder what will paul think of to counter this more jamming, better yet ammo explosions... yes your ultr-20 will blow up if you dual fire them....

[DocBach]

Theoretical Clan AC/20 Boat

Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-D
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 24,670,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 3,046

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
2 ER PPCs
3 Ultra AC/20s
1 Medium Pulse Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 152 points 5.00
Internal Locations: 6 LT, 1 RT
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 300 9.50
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 15(30) 5.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT, 1 LL, 1 RL
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 307 19.50
CASE Locations: RT, LA, RA 0.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 31 47
Center Torso (rear) 15
L/R Torso 21 32
L/R Torso (rear) 10
L/R Arm 17 34
L/R Leg 21 42

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Pulse Laser HD 4 1 2.00
Ultra AC/20 RT 7 8 12.00
2 ER PPCs LT 30 4 12.00
Ultra AC/20 RA 7 8 12.00
Ultra AC/20 LA 7 8 12.00
@Ultra AC/20 (5) RT - 1 1.00
@Ultra AC/20 (10) RA - 2 2.00
@Ultra AC/20 (10) LA - 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 0

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 10 Points: 30
3 6 6 2 0 4 4 Structure: 5
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

something quick I came up with, a Clan 100 tonner with three Ultra AC/20s, and 2 ER PPCs with a medium pulse laser for good measure - mind you Clan ER PPC's also hit for more damage so two is like being hit by three PPC's now. With how everything converges on one location, this will be capable of 40 damage per Ultra AC/20, plus 30 from the PPC's, so 150 damage to a single location. Oh yeah, also max armor and side torsos don't mean instant death anymore thanks to Inner Sphere technology.

Fixes need to be something that lasts the long haul, ie when the Clans come too, rather than band **** for the booboos we have now. Band **** are even more painful when you have to rip them off....

Edited by DocBach, 14 June 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[DaZur]

El Bandito, on 14 June 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

This is why TT rules have hit chances. And this is why MWO must have convergence to stave off hyper accurate big alphas.

This point seems to pass right in one ear and out the other on most people who clamor for closer adhesion to TT.

There is nothing in TT that can be easily translated from TT to real-time to compensate for pin-point accuracy and the subsequent focused damage save some form of damage / heat manipulation and or a mechanic to apply some aspect of deviation.

[One Medic Army]

PEEFsmash, on 14 June 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

You would only know this if you had done repeated duels vs top players, but I'll let it go.


I think you're right. You ready for my fix? Here it goes. 1: Increase SRM damage. 2: Reduce Laser heat. Here's the biggie that I haven't heard anyone else propose: Make PPCs a very short duration shot. .30 second beam. This way, we can keep the skill cap very high, let the player aim instead of having the game aim for us, and pinpoint damage would be significantly reduced, subject to torso twist, etc.

What do you think?

Sounds doable. What about gauss/AC20? Changing PPCs into super-short duration lasers would help spread their damage out a bit, but doesn't help with the ballistics boat issues. Of course, that issue will only start to be big when we get a ballistics boating assault. Double AC/20 Jagers are total glass cannons to anyone who can reliably hit their side torso, same with most double gauss builds.

SRMs and LBX definitely need higher damage. Accuarcy trumps spread, so spread needs higher damage to compensate. Now that the new SRM pathing means SRMs are spread weapons at all ranges, rather than being precision up-close they can get an apropriate damage for spread weapons without causing massive QQ. LBX is already an inferior AC/10, and AC/10s aren't all that hot to begin with right now. If we get an assault that can mount 3 (possible with one of the Victor variants) they might start to get used more.