459 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Monky, on 13 June 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

I would not be fine with cone of fire in these situations -

A: Standing still (would make game unfun)
B: Walking (would make game unfun)
C: Running (would make game unfun)
D: Heavy damage sustained (penalizes an already hurt mech)

You'll probably have to concede with C and to a smaller extent B. This is pretty much standard fare these days.

[Unbound Inferno]

Monky, on 13 June 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

I would be fine with cone of fire in a few distinct situations -

A: Jumpjetting (as is now)
B: Falling (smaller than jumpjetting cone by about 40%)
C: When over 50% of your heat capacity (smaller than jumpjetting cone by about 80%)

I would not be fine with cone of fire in these situations -

A: Standing still (would make game unfun)
B: Walking (would make game unfun)
C: Running (would make game unfun)
D: Heavy damage sustained (penalizes an already hurt mech)

True, but I'd have to include Both Running and Walking in with Jumpjetting/Falling and heat. Just scale it based on the speed you move.

[DocBach]

Unbound Inferno, on 13 June 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Something like that? I'd get behind it.

yeah, something like that, influenced by the 'Mechs movement speed and heat level - the lower the speed and heat level, the smaller the reticule gets. In this example this guy is running really hot, so his reticule is pretty large - even though his aiming point is over the left arm, one of his shots actually connects with the LT because the convergence isn't to a pinpoint due to his heat level.

[El Bandito]

armyof1, on 13 June 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

Uh yeah, that totally wasn't in reply to anything I just wrote. Random chance to hit/miss with slow firing weapons not equal to random hit/miss with rapid-fire weapons.

It is equal as in both of them will have their damage output noticeably reduced if you are not aiming. Let other FPS have their insta-murdering machine guns. This. is . MWO.

[Haruspex Pariah]

I'd be fine with this. MWO copy-pastes a lot of their material straight from Battletech TT seemingly without realising that a tabletop game where shooting is based on dice rolls and an FPS video game are completely different things.

Weapons do not auto-converge in Battletech. If they did, you'd have radically different stats for the weapons.

[armyof1]

El Bandito, on 13 June 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

It is equal as in both of them will have their damage output noticeably reduced if you are not aiming. Let other FPS have their insta-murdering machine guns. This. is . MWO.

It's funny you say that, since mechwarrior games never had cone of fire. What you're trying to make here is CS but with slow motion fire fights. And everyone will just aim center mass because then you'd have a much higher chance to hit. Targetting legs? Forget about it.

Edited by armyof1, 13 June 2013 - 06:07 PM.

[One Medic Army]

armyof1, on 13 June 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

It's funny you say that, since mechwarrior games never had cone of fire. What you're trying to make here is CS but with slow motion fire fights. And everyone will just aim center mass because then you'd have a much higher chance to hit. Targetting legs? Forget about it.

Or more accurately, people would need to use higher accuracy weapons, or be closer to target legs or side torsos.

You know, since it's a cone of fire, the actual area covered by the cone is proportional to the distance to target and the angle of the cone.

You could even give weapons that are supposed to be super accurate, like pulse lasers, a smaller cone to represent that.

Edited by One Medic Army, 13 June 2013 - 06:11 PM.

[armyof1]

One Medic Army, on 13 June 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

Or more accurately, people would need to use higher accuracy weapons, or be closer to target legs or side torsos.

You know, since it's a cone of fire, the actual area covered by the cone is proportional to the distance to target and the angle of the cone.

I foresee a lot of static fights and hillhumping even more than now since not only will it give you more cover, it will also improve your aim.

[Sybreed]

the only real limitation of this system is the current weapon grouping system... how do you add cones of fire when you have 2-3 weapon groups with different weapons and therefore different move penalties?

[FunkyFritter]

Depends on the implementation, but given PGI's track record and how much such a feature would fundamentally change the game I don't see an attempt ending well.

[El Bandito]

armyof1, on 13 June 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

It's funny you say that, since mechwarrior games never had cone of fire. What you're trying to make here is CS but with slow motion fire fights. And everyone will just aim center mass because then you'd have a much higher chance to hit. Targetting legs? Forget about it.

You do realize that in lore most mechwarriors simply aimed for the center of the mass, because Inner Sphere targeting computer was junk, right?

Older MW games such as MW2 had technological limitations to accurately portray convergence and cone of fire. MW4 is just a generic FPS crowd pleaser--it is a disgrace to BT universe.

MWO has the technology to pull off more BT-like combat than ever, and I will be pissed if they let it slide.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 June 2013 - 12:41 PM.

[One Medic Army]

armyof1, on 13 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

I foresee a lot of static fights and hillhumping even more than now since not only will it give you more cover, it will also improve your aim.

I would predict lots of fast harasses (since they would no longer die to a single hit) running up to said hillhumpers and forcing them to increase heat (and decrease accuracy) to fight in a prolonged manner while lasing them constantly.

Not to mention if PPCs actually were only good for precision strikes at around 300m, people wouldn't be able to hold brawlers at bay nearly as well.

Edited by One Medic Army, 13 June 2013 - 06:16 PM.

[Lootee]

armyof1, on 13 June 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

It's funny you say that, since mechwarrior games never had cone of fire. What you're trying to make here is CS but with slow motion fire fights. And everyone will just aim center mass because then you'd have a much higher chance to hit. Targetting legs? Forget about it.

What we have now is already CS with energy AWMs.

[El Bandito]

PanchoTortilla, on 13 June 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

What we have now is already CS with energy AWMs.

And this new Canyon map is the perfect AWM map.

[armyof1]

One Medic Army, on 13 June 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

I would predict lots of fast harasses (since they would no longer die to a single hit) running up to said hillhumpers and forcing them to increase heat (and decrease accuracy) to fight in a prolonged manner while lasing them constantly.

So you'll have a big cone of fire even when standing still, is that the idea? Then we can forget about any long range weapons, and all use lasers and other short-range builds.

PanchoTortilla, on 13 June 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

What we have now is already CS with energy AWMs.

You must never have played CS.

[Sephlock]

PanchoTortilla, on 13 June 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Sure why not.

Can't be any worse than bundling every single weapon on your mech together with duct tape to build the super laser from the Death Star happening now.

[Artgathan]

Sybreed, on 13 June 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

the only real limitation of this system is the current weapon grouping system... how do you add cones of fire when you have 2-3 weapon groups with different weapons and therefore different move penalties?

This is what I see as being the biggest limitation to any CoF system. There's already a lot of information on the HUD - having CoFs for every weapon could conceivably add up to 6 more reticules to the HUD.

That said, I would get behind a CoF system that handled movement, range and heat penalties. Range penalties would be similar to TT and the basic effect would be that for some weapons the CoF shrinks as the target moves further away (Gauss, AC/2, PPC) while for others the CoF shrinks as the target moves closer (Pulse Lasers, AC/20, SRM).

[One Medic Army]

armyof1, on 13 June 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

So you'll have a big cone of fire even when standing still, is that the idea? Then we can forget about any long range weapons, and all use lasers and other short-range builds.

You'll have a decent sized cone if you're firing PPCs while at high heat, which is where you get firing PPCs with any rapidity.
It's not about missing, it's about not concentrating the damage.

If I take 6 PPC shots to the side torso I'm pretty screwed, if I take 2 to the side torso, 2 to the center torso, 1 to the arm, and 1 to the leg I'm not nearly as close to death.

[Sybreed]

Artgathan, on 13 June 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

This is what I see as being the biggest limitation to any CoF system. There's already a lot of information on the HUD - having CoFs for every weapon could conceivably add up to 6 more reticules to the HUD.

That said, I would get behind a CoF system that handled movement, range and heat penalties. Range penalties would be similar to TT and the basic effect would be that for some weapons the CoF shrinks as the target moves further away (Gauss, AC/2, PPC) while for others the CoF shrinks as the target moves closer (Pulse Lasers, AC/20, SRM).

perhaps switching groups using the arrows shows the selected group current circle and that's it. Most people will put their most important guns on group 1 and 2 anyway and will always have group 1 selected. For the rest of your weapons you're just gonna go with your guts. I don't really have a better idea.

[Unbound Inferno]

Well, let's lay it out;


Effects that would adjust it;
Moving
JJ/Falling
Heat
Torso/Arm twist shifting

The hardest point would be moving first. Full speed running should be the biggest factor scaled by the speed you move. Faster you go, the more wild it gets. This alleviates some more static position changes down to a minor nudge - but not as pinpoint as standing still.

JJ and Falling should be approached in different sphere, but mentioned together. a JJ boost ought to be noticeable while its on and adding it to running makes it wild to say the least. Falling should be less as physics demands a pretty static rate of falling regardless.

Heat should be a scaled measure. Less heat, less noticeable - but if you run hot the shots just become wild as a penalty of it.

Last I want to at least urge including torso twist and arm movements slightly but not by much. Adjusting your aim and direction you are facing should have a penalty but nothing drastic. Just a minor quirk that adds up in the greater scheme but shouldn't make it impossible to turn and hit someone fast. Just make it so you spread your hits slightly.

Variables shift from weapon to weapon - where your targeting would only show the largest cone of your equipped weapons.

Some weapons like Pulse Lasers which are intended to maintain good accuracy would have smaller comes where others like an Ultra AC would suffer from a larger one.