459 replies to this topic

[3rdworld]

Lostdragon, on 14 June 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

What happens when we get a mech that can fit 3 Gauss Rifles then? Heat is a non-issue. In order to tackle this problem effectively there are 3 basic solutions and you need to implement some combo of two to address every scenario.

1. Make heat more restrictive
2. Restrict hard points
3. Reduce pinpoint damage via reticle sway or CoF or some other mechanism

If you don't do at least two you wind up with a situation where it is still pretty easy to do massive damage to a single location.

There are no such mechs in the game. Assuming DPS is viable the easiest way to lower the effectiveness of gauss is by increasing its CD.

Assuming I am closing on you, and gauss has an ~8 second CD. Sure you did 45 dmg to me, I only have to return 6dps to out-damage you. 7 dps if the CD is 7, 8 if it is 6. 1 AC/2 does 4 dps by itself.

oh and gauss tends to explode when damaged.

[Corvus Antaka]

i like being able to hit where I aim. cone of fire is a bad idea. encouragement to more link fire thus creating a virtual cone of fire - good idea.

[DaZur]

Volthorne, on 14 June 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

No, going up and down. Side to side makes no ********* sense, unless you're swinging your arms like a cheerleader or some **** like that, and last I checked, 'Mechs weren't cheerleaders.

Actually... Mechs don't need to pump their arms as the biomechanical motion of "swinging / pumping" ones arms is a bipedal balance function that our lovely Mechs are not required to do as the gyro performs this function in theory.

FWIW what your seeing in these animations is the de-harmonization of the segregated aim-point reticles for the LT mount, Center Mount and RT mount...

Edited by DaZur, 14 June 2013 - 11:01 AM.

[ExtremeA79]

Lostdragon, on 14 June 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

What happens when we get a mech that can fit 3 Gauss Rifles then? Heat is a non-issue. In order to tackle this problem effectively there are 3 basic solutions and you need to implement some combo of two to address every scenario.

1. Make heat more restrictive
2. Restrict hard points
3. Reduce pinpoint damage via reticle sway or CoF or some other mechanism

If you don't do at least two you wind up with a situation where it is still pretty easy to do massive damage to a single location.

I believe that ALL of these solutions are helpful, but they would have to be used together.

Simply restricting hardpoints won't fix ALL problems, same with the other suggestions. If used together I think it will make this game great.

[Lostdragon]

3rdworld, on 14 June 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

There are no such mechs in the game. Assuming DPS is viable the easiest way to lower the effectiveness of gauss is by increasing its CD.

Assuming I am closing on you, and gauss has an ~8 second CD. Sure you did 45 dmg to me, I only have to return 6dps to out-damage you. 7 dps if the CD is 7, 8 if it is 6. 1 AC/2 does 4 dps by itself.

oh and gauss tends to explode when damaged.

There will be one day though, is my point. And I doubt you will ever see an 8s CD on any weapon and if they do increase the CD of anything to 8s no one will use it then we will have to have a discussion about how Gauss Rifles or whatever got nerfed into the ground.

Edited by Lostdragon, 14 June 2013 - 11:02 AM.

[ExtremeA79]

3rdworld, on 14 June 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

There are no such mechs in the game. Assuming DPS is viable the easiest way to lower the effectiveness of gauss is by increasing its CD.

Assuming I am closing on you, and gauss has an ~8 second CD. Sure you did 45 dmg to me, I only have to return 6dps to out-damage you. 7 dps if the CD is 7, 8 if it is 6. 1 AC/2 does 4 dps by itself.

oh and gauss tends to explode when damaged.

Lore wise there aren't. Lore wise there are no 6 ppc mechs (points at Stalker) but with the lack of restrictions on hardpoints there will be a mech with 3 gauss that someone comes up with. Trust me, there will. If a Stalker can handle 6 PPC's there will be a mech that can handle 3 gauss.

[3rdworld]

Lostdragon, on 14 June 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

There will be one day though, is my point. And I doubt you will ever see an 8s CD on any weapon and if they do increase the CD of anything to 8s no one will use it then we will have to have a discussion about how Gauss Rifles got nerfed into the ground.

You would if it was still balanced in comparison to others.

But by then we will have clan lasers, clan UACs, which will out dps that gauss build by a country mile. Right now that is not a viable tactic. With heat cap and heat dissipation, it could be.

Darren Tyler, on 14 June 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Lore wise there aren't. Lore wise there are no 6 ppc mechs (points at Stalker) but with the lack of restrictions on hardpoints there will be a mech with 3 gauss that someone comes up with. Trust me, there will. If a Stalker can handle 6 PPC's there will be a mech that can handle 3 gauss.

meh the Warhawk is canon. It has 4 clan erppcs which pump out the same damage as the 6 ppc stalker. (not that the 6 ppc stalker has ever really been an issue because of heat generation).

[Lostdragon]

3rdworld, on 14 June 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

You would if it was still balanced in comparison to others.

But by then we will have clan lasers, clan UACs, which will out dps that gauss build by a country mile. Right now that is not a viable tactic. With heat cap and heat dissipation, it could be.

Quite frankly I am afraid Clan Tech will ruin the game based on what we have seen so far. The current weapons are pretty far apart when you compare the best to the worst. Unless there are some major changes to the mechanics we have been discussing (heat, hardpoints, convergence) then Clans will break the game.

[ExtremeA79]

3rdworld, on 14 June 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

You would if it was still balanced in comparison to others.

But by then we will have clan lasers, clan UACs, which will out dps that gauss build by a country mile. Right now that is not a viable tactic. With heat cap and heat dissipation, it could be.



meh the Warhawk is canon. It has 4 clan erppcs which pump out the same damage as the 6 ppc stalker. (not that the 6 ppc stalker has ever really been an issue because of heat generation).

My point is that mechs in this game are able to wield more than in canon, and simply saying that there will not be 3 gauss mechs is wrong, because there will in this game.

Darren Tyler, on 14 June 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

My point is that mechs in this game are able to wield more than in canon, and simply saying that there will not be 3 gauss mechs is wrong, because there will in this game.

Also, since you brought it up.
Clan tech, more powerful than Innersphere, may ruin this game. There may be some mechs with more UAC´s than in canon, and that may make games end too quickly.
What I am saying here is that Clan tech will pose a problem to balance.

Edited by Darren Tyler, 14 June 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[3rdworld]

Lostdragon, on 14 June 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

Quite frankly I am afraid Clan Tech will ruin the game based on what we have seen so far. The current weapons are pretty far apart when you compare the best to the worst. Unless there are some major changes to the mechanics we have been discussing (heat, hardpoints, convergence) then Clans will break the game.

You and I both. Without some form of heat cap changes, 4 Clan ERPPC will become the new norm. Assuming the stalker can mount clan tech, it could carry around 30 DHS, with a cap nearing 100. It would get off around 6 60dmg alphas before it overheat. That would certainly break the game.

[Lostdragon]

This is a great discussion and I have had a lot of fun thinking about all this, but I am afraid we are beating a dead horse. Despite massive outcry against the way PGI is planning to address this there has been complete radio silence from them on this issue since the original announcements.

I am afraid we are wasting our time debating this because I think they are going to move forward with their plan regardless.

[ExtremeA79]

3rdworld, on 14 June 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

You and I both. Without some form of heat cap changes, 4 Clan ERPPC will become the new norm. Assuming the stalker can mount clan tech, it could carry around 30 DHS, with a cap nearing 100. It would get off around 6 60dmg alphas before it overheat. That would certainly break the game.

Exactly.
With no penalty to high heat boats soaring into 200% this game is doomed.
I think a variety of solutions is needed in order to help this game survive.

[PEEFsmash]

I am entirely convinced that this cone of fire crap is a plot by low-level players to flatten the skill curve of aiming making anyone's average aim as good as those with superb aim, and it will certainly do that. All of the complaints are, more or less, "I didn't hear about this in the 30 year old books I worship like the bible" or "you shouldn't be able to hit 1 spot with so many weapons!". That's because you are getting killed by people who can hit one spot, but you are unable to do the same.

I am still yet to hear from a single top level player who thinks we need to nerf aiming via cone of fire, and until I do, this looks like a low-level pitchfork grabbing uprising against people who can aim.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 14 June 2013 - 11:19 AM.

[DirePhoenix]

I would approve of a WoT-like accuracy reticle that expands/contracts based off of several factors (movement, heat, skill points invested). It solves several issues, like group fire/boating issues, as well as aimbotting.

The main obstacle I see is that in games with such a reticle system, the player is only firing one weapon at a time, not groups of weapons with different properties. Making reticles for each group or each weapon could be really horrible visually, where your screen is covered in circles like a crazy Venn Diagram.



The only decent fix for that I would see is having one reticle that combines properties from all weapons. Or two reticles, one for arms, one for torso. Or three reticles: one for each arm (for 'mechs with asymetrical arm actuators and/or allowing for arm actuator damage effects), and one for torso. Or four reticles: one for each arm, one for torsos, and one for leg-mounted weapons (points in the direction of the legs instead of the upper torso).

...oh, there we go with the crazy Venn Diagram again...

[One Medic Army]

3rdworld, on 14 June 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

There are no such mechs in the game. Assuming DPS is viable the easiest way to lower the effectiveness of gauss is by increasing its CD.

Assuming I am closing on you, and gauss has an ~8 second CD. Sure you did 45 dmg to me, I only have to return 6dps to out-damage you. 7 dps if the CD is 7, 8 if it is 6. 1 AC/2 does 4 dps by itself.

oh and gauss tends to explode when damaged.

There are no such mechs in the game yet.
There are plenty of period appropriate mechs that could do such a thing.

[stjobe]

Lostdragon, on 14 June 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

I agree 100% with this type of heat mechanic but it doesn't change the fact that you can still have a 3 PPC and GR build that does a 45 point alpha to one location, which is still a big issue to me.

And that's where another proposed anti-pin-point solution comes in: Making ballistics fire in 1-second bursts (and making the PPC a beam-weapon like it should be).

Simply put:

• Missiles don't do pin-point damage because individual missiles in the salvo spread.
  
• Lasers don't do pin-point damage because they spread their damage over their beam time.
  
• Therefore, ballistics (and the faux-ballistic PPC) are the problem, and they should be changed.
  
• Make all ballistics fire in 3-5 round bursts over roughly 1 second, and then cooldown for 1 second less than current.
  
• Damage of course needs to be divided by the number of rounds in the burst, so a 4-round burst of AC/20 will do 4x5 damage.
  
• The PPC gets re-implemented as a beam weapon with a beam duration on par or slightly less than a LPL, and a cooldown slightly longer than the LPL.

There you have it, a solution to the pin-point alpha problem without CoF or convergence adjustments.

Edited by stjobe, 14 June 2013 - 11:32 AM.

[tenderloving]

PEEFsmash, on 14 June 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

I am entirely convinced that this cone of fire crap is a plot by low-level players to flatten the skill curve of aiming making anyone's average aim as good as those with superb aim, and it will certainly do that. All of the complaints are, more or less, "I didn't hear about this in the 30 year old books I worship like the bible" or "you shouldn't be able to hit 1 spot with so many weapons!". That's because you are getting killed by people who can hit one spot, but you are unable to do the same.

I am still yet to hear from a single top level player who thinks we need to nerf aiming via cone of fire, and until I do, this looks like a low-level pitchfork grabbing uprising against people who can aim.

NOBODY is unable to hit in one spot under the current system.

YOU are not doing anything special to hit in one spot. If you are, then provide evidence.

You click, and the weapons hit; that's all there is. If anything the current system has a lower skill curve than a CoF/Limited convergence system would.

[Lostdragon]

PEEFsmash, on 14 June 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

I am entirely convinced that this cone of fire crap is a plot by low-level players to flatten the skill curve of aiming making anyone's average aim as good as those with superb aim, and it will certainly do that. All of the complaints are, more or less, "I didn't hear about this in the 30 year old books I worship like the bible" or "you shouldn't be able to hit 1 spot with so many weapons!". That's because you are getting killed by people who can hit one spot, but you are unable to do the same.

I am still yet to hear from a single top level player who thinks we need to nerf aiming via cone of fire, and until I do, this looks like a low-level pitchfork grabbing uprising against people who can aim.

I can run around in my PPC/ GR mechs and smash people all day long. I don't claim to be an elite level player but it is not hard to figure out this out:

Mech w/ x (ER)PPCs and/or Gauss Rifles > Any mech without those

Aiming as it is right now is ridiculously easy. I cannot tell you how many mechs I have killed in less than 15 seconds after the start of battles on River City. That was fun for a little while but shooting fish in a barrel gets old after a while. When sniping is clearly the best option and when those sniping weapons work better than any others at any range that is a huge problem.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend otherwise go ahead, but I would like to see other playstyles be viable options that can do well.

Edited by Lostdragon, 14 June 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Lostdragon, on 14 June 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

What happens when we get a mech that can fit 3 Gauss Rifles then? Heat is a non-issue. In order to tackle this problem effectively there are 3 basic solutions and you need to implement some combo of two to address every scenario.

1. Make heat more restrictive
2. Restrict hard points
3. Reduce pinpoint damage via reticle sway or CoF or some other mechanism

If you don't do at least two you wind up with a situation where it is still pretty easy to do massive damage to a single location.

Gauss can be balanced with a greatly reduced rate of fire for DPS well below other weapons. Most other pinpoint weapons can be balanced with heat generation, or possibly in the case of autocannons making the heavier once fire bursts instead of a single shell. Cone of fire is not needed and I guarantee that attempting to implement it in this game will result in a game that is much less fun for the majority of players than the current version (as flawed as the current game is).

Lostdragon, on 14 June 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

I can run around in my PPC/ GR mechs and smash people all day long. I don't claim to be an elite level player but it is not hard to figure out this out:

Mech w/ x (ER)PPCs and/or Gauss Rifles > Any mech without those

Aiming as it is right now is ridiculously easy. I cannot tell you how many mechs I have killed in less than 15 seconds after the start of battles on River City. That was fun for a little while but shooting fish in a barrel gets old after a while. When sniping is clearly the best option and the weapons work better than any others at any range that is a huge problem.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend otherwise go ahead, but I would like to see other playstyles be viable options that can do well.

That really is a weapon balance issue, not a pinpoint damage issue. When non-pinpoint damage weapons put out significantly more DPS than the pinpoint ones (due to heat generation or cooldowns) then we will not see the PPC/gauss combo as the king of the battlefield it is not.

Edited by Vodrin Thales, 14 June 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[One Medic Army]

PEEFsmash, on 14 June 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

I am entirely convinced that this cone of fire crap is a plot by low-level players to flatten the skill curve of aiming making anyone's average aim as good as those with superb aim, and it will certainly do that. All of the complaints are, more or less, "I didn't hear about this in the 30 year old books I worship like the bible" or "you shouldn't be able to hit 1 spot with so many weapons!". That's because you are getting killed by people who can hit one spot, but you are unable to do the same.

I am still yet to hear from a single top level player who thinks we need to nerf aiming via cone of fire, and until I do, this looks like a low-level pitchfork grabbing uprising against people who can aim.

I can hit one spot just as well as the so called "competitive players".
I go out and blow off XL engines with a blackjack using lasers ffs, which requires keeping the beam on the target rather than a single split second of accuracy.
Currently point damage weapons>>duration damage weapons>>spread damage weapons.
Point damage also means that smaller mechs are pretty much getting 1-shot, which is bad for gameplay in a non-respawn environment.

Something needs to be done, either armor levels need to be re-balanced on mechs to account for the hit-spread of players rather than the hit-spread of TT, or something needs to be implemented to spread incoming damage.

Either all mechs need the armor to take an accurate hit or two from the 40dmg pinpoint alphas, or the 40dmg alphas need to be less pinpoint, or mechs need to generally be made more agile to increase the difficulty of landing accurate shots.