233 replies to this topic

[ExtremeA79]

Volthorne, on 17 June 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

So now you're basically trying to cover for your incompetence. Good to know. Just because I'm a damn good pilot doesn't mean everyone is, so why should they be forced to "deal with" suich godawful hitboxes? And yes you DO have to list all the "advantages", considering you made the claim. That's how debates work, or did you not know that as well?

Insults are always in your posts, that just shows how insecure you are. If you are a damn good pilot then you are a damn good pilot. Mechwarrior online takes time to learn. Because of ELO your teammates would be alot worse than you, and chances are you are seeing them being headshotted all the time in catapults. These people are noobs to this game and either they get better in catapults, or choose another mech.
I don't think that we should make this game easy for noobs.

[Volthorne]

Darren Tyler, on 17 June 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

L2P and easy-to-headcap Catapults are fine.

FTFY, because that's basically all I hear coming from you.

Thanks for playing, you win a big bucket full of FAIL!

Edited by Volthorne, 17 June 2013 - 11:37 AM.

[ExtremeA79]

Volthorne, on 17 June 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

FTFY, because that's basically all I hear coming from you.

Thanks for playing, you win a big bucket full of FAIL!

Can you make a post that does NOT insult me and sounds like it is coming from a 12 year old?

There are all these people who claim they are great with the catapult but noticed enemies and teammates are worse with it. That is the result of ELO, and you should know that.

Edited by Darren Tyler, 17 June 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

Darren Tyler, on 14 June 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

That is the mech's weakness. Catapult has always been meant as a support mech. Most heavies are meant to be support mechs. This is true in battletech, mechwarrior, and novels.
It is fine.

This is quite possibly the most ******** argument i have seen for big headboxes on the forums. It compelled me to sign in just to respond to this.

Most heavies and assaults are fire support mechs. Brawler assaults and heavies tend to fare poorly when you are slow. The only reason they suceed at all is because MWO provides far more cover than in the board game. Yet the catapult is the only mech with a easy to hit headbox.

The simplest comparison is the catapault to the stalker. The stalker is a fire support mech, yet does not have a giant headbox. The headbox on the catapult also makes the catapult a poor fire support mech as it is very easy to pop with PPCs/gauss rifles just by aiming at the CT. There is no reason to limit yourself to a "fire support mech" that cannot take fire when you can pick another mech that can.

This is one of the flaws of MWO. Many mechs are designed to look cool and not for function. Mechs like the catapult work fine in a system where the chance to hit the head is exactly the same as that of any other mech. This is not true in MWO. Any mech that has the cockpit located in the CT is simply inferior, beacuse all you need to do is aim for the CT to headshot it. Even back in the old days when the atlas was the easiest mech to headshot, you at least had to aim for the left eye and not the xbox huge CT.

With the quick draw coming out, the catapult is well and truly pointless. The quickdraw allows you to mount a larger engine, carry the same amount of missles, and not get headshotted easily, while also not having easily shot off missle pods.

This is excluding the current issues plauging the catapult....the fact that missles simply suck in a metagame that revolvings around high damage, instant alphas, rather than slow moving missles that can be shot down, blocked by terrain, jammed by ECM and do less damage than direct fire alternatives. We used to have tons of catapaults. Now we have nothing but dual ac20 jagermechs and dual gauss cataphracts.

And before anyone mentions jump jets, jump jets serve zero purpose in MWO unless you are a fast, light mech (or am trying to troll). Oh look your highlander is flying in the air...well i don't give a **** because i can still hit you perfectly fine (barring the ****** netcode). Since JJ cannot be used to pop tart easily anymore, most people have simply stopped using them as they serve no purpose. JJs are used in the TT to jump into woods, behind partial cover or to take rear shots. You simply cannot do this in MWO as everything has a 100% chance to hit and enemies can turn to face you while you are in mid air.

I'm done. I'm not going to respond further because experience has taught me and most testers that having long drawn out discussions on the forums often results in zero action on the part of PGI (see : everything that has been broken since the start of closed beta and still is broken), and we are not getting paid for this, so there is effectively no point in spending hours and hours argueing here.

[Mad Porthos]

There was a change which I believe was announced, that those side windows would no longer be part of the cockpit hitbox, and after a patch, it was briefly so... this was a few months back. However, a few weeks after the patch, adjustment, a good number of people noted that it seemed to have reverted, with out having been mentioned in any further patches as being readjusted to be big again.

I personally get the headshots all the time on the center pane, by habit, just as I do on cataphracts, but I think I recall getting one with 3Lpl just the other day on a side window when I was trying to take out a side torso on a k2 with an XL.

[ExtremeA79]

Jun Watarase, on 17 June 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

This is quite possibly the most ******** argument i have seen for big headboxes on the forums. It compelled me to sign in just to respond to this.

Most heavies and assaults are fire support mechs. Brawler assaults and heavies tend to fare poorly when you are slow. The only reason they suceed at all is because MWO provides far more cover than in the board game. Yet the catapult is the only mech with a easy to hit headbox.

The simplest comparison is the catapault to the stalker. The stalker is a fire support mech, yet does not have a giant headbox. The headbox on the catapult also makes the catapult a poor fire support mech as it is very easy to pop with PPCs/gauss rifles just by aiming at the CT. There is no reason to limit yourself to a "fire support mech" that cannot take fire when you can pick another mech that can.

This is one of the flaws of MWO. Many mechs are designed to look cool and not for function. Mechs like the catapult work fine in a system where the chance to hit the head is exactly the same as that of any other mech. This is not true in MWO. Any mech that has the cockpit located in the CT is simply inferior, beacuse all you need to do is aim for the CT to headshot it. Even back in the old days when the atlas was the easiest mech to headshot, you at least had to aim for the left eye and not the xbox huge CT.

With the quick draw coming out, the catapult is well and truly pointless. The quickdraw allows you to mount a larger engine, carry the same amount of missles, and not get headshotted easily, while also not having easily shot off missle pods.

This is excluding the current issues plauging the catapult....the fact that missles simply suck in a metagame that revolvings around high damage, instant alphas, rather than slow moving missles that can be shot down, blocked by terrain, jammed by ECM and do less damage than direct fire alternatives. We used to have tons of catapaults. Now we have nothing but dual ac20 jagermechs and dual gauss cataphracts.

And before anyone mentions jump jets, jump jets serve zero purpose in MWO unless you are a fast, light mech (or am trying to troll). Oh look your highlander is flying in the air...well i don't give a **** because i can still hit you perfectly fine (barring the ****** netcode). Since JJ cannot be used to pop tart easily anymore, most people have simply stopped using them as they serve no purpose. JJs are used in the TT to jump into woods, behind partial cover or to take rear shots. You simply cannot do this in MWO as everything has a 100% chance to hit and enemies can turn to face you while you are in mid air.

I'm done. I'm not going to respond further because experience has taught me and most testers that having long drawn out discussions on the forums often results in zero action on the part of PGI (see : everything that has been broken since the start of closed beta and still is broken), and we are not getting paid for this, so there is effectively no point in spending hours and hours argueing here.

Ever since BAP countered ECM and the buffs LRM's are in a balanced state and are great. Netcode is better than ever though since most recent patch there have been problems mostly with streaks. Jump Jets serve great in mobility. If you think they suck that is your opinion. Go tell that to the people who USED to love JJ's. (Until JJ nerf)
My comment means that it offset advantages. Just so something is this type of class doesn't mean they need to be homogeneous.
Everything should be unique.
You must be playing a older version of MWO because ECM and Streaks are not problems in balance.

Edited by Darren Tyler, 17 June 2013 - 11:57 AM.

[Adridos]

Jun Watarase, on 17 June 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

The simplest comparison is the catapault to the stalker. The stalker is a fire support mech...

Nope, Stalkers are spearheading machines. They have weapons at all ranges and such profile for that reason alone. Close in while you shower the enemy with missile barrages, then add in tons of lasers while slowly trimming down the LRm usage and finally ripping them and their fortifications open with your deadly SRM + laser fire that puts out heat and damage unimaginable in the 3025 era.



Sure... really looks like fire-support.

[Talysma]

My view may be the minority, but I couldn't care less about lore justifications for game balance issues. There are at least two mutually exclusive goals that 'game balance' might be trying to achieve. One treats MWO as a simulation, where an accurate treatment of canon is success. Another treats MWO as a game, where the variety of mechs fielded is success.

With the caveat that my mech choice is strategic and not RP, I rarely field my Catapults because they are inferior choices to other mechs in almost any role they could fill. This is mainly because of the easy target head.

In all truth, success for PGI is whatever maximizes revenue, which is probably going to mean pretending to optimize as simulation and as game (which is not possible).

[ExtremeA79]

This game can be a FPS or a simulation. Looks more like the former.

[Stoicblitzer]

Talysma, on 17 June 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

My view may be the minority, but I couldn't care less about lore justifications for game balance issues. There are at least two mutually exclusive goals that 'game balance' might be trying to achieve. One treats MWO as a simulation, where an accurate treatment of canon is success. Another treats MWO as a game, where the variety of mechs fielded is success.

With the caveat that my mech choice is strategic and not RP, I rarely field my Catapults because they are inferior choices to other mechs in almost any role they could fill. This is mainly because of the easy target head.

In all truth, success for PGI is whatever maximizes revenue, which is probably going to mean pretending to optimize as simulation and as game (which is not possible).

best 2nd post ever

[FERAL TIGER]

It serves as a need to the catapult, but relegates it to a rear support role

[Odins Fist]

Gallowglas, on 17 June 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Well, the devs disagree, so I guess that will be all. Just not the "all" you envision.

LOL... Ok

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

Darren Tyler, on 14 June 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

That is the mech's weakness. Catapult has always been meant as a support mech. Most heavies are meant to be support mechs. This is true in battletech, mechwarrior, and novels.
It is fine.

Then why is the jager totally clear of weaknesses that catapults have? they are ranged support mechs but have no handicap like the catapults. So answer that.

[OmniJackal]

I didn't see this post before I made my Madcat bad time post. Sorry I didn't use the search function.

[KharnZor]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 14 June 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Think about the name of the 'Mech.

"Catapult."

Catapults are made to lob large quantities of deadly at things, not charge them and run them over.

And there you go. If you are thinking the cat is anything other than support you are plain wrong. if you look at its weakness (head hitbox) you'll see after some thought that these mechs just aren't meant to be on the front line otherwise the cockpit design would be alot different . You want to faceroll stuff get an assault.

[KharnZor]

POOTYTANGASAUR, on 17 June 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Then why is the jager totally clear of weaknesses that catapults have? they are ranged support mechs but have no handicap like the catapults. So answer that.

oh come on now. you know what happens when you shoot the side torso's dont you? there are no arms to block damage......can you see where i'm going with this?

[pow pow]

catapults (especially the K2) are devastating top tier snipers. Having a big head is slight hindrance and easy to put up with. Did you know that they have a massive turn rate? ie you can twist and dodge/spread most intended headshots better than in other mech?

you are probably having a bad time because you take too long to aim and fire at enemies, hence you leave your center-mass exposed for too long. You should ideally play the catapult (i m talking the 4 ppc k2 i am most experienced with) from behind cover and poke to fire after your team has engaged so that you diminish the probabilities of being targeted / focused.

Most smart teams will focus k2's when they see them, so don't overexpose yourself and learn how to twist and turn better.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Gallowglas, on 17 June 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

Being mobile doesn't prevent a Catapult from being easily cockpitted. Yes, you can make them pretty fast, but there are plenty of mechs out there that can keep up and unless you intend to keep your back to them (which introduces a weakness of a different sort), they're going to be able to headshot you. It's enough that I actively seek it out every single time I engage one.

Honestly, I wish I had a good solution for collecting some video evidence. It's a moot point since the devs are correcting it, but I swear sometimes it's like people are playing a completely different game. With Elo differences, that may even be so.

Maybe we are playing a different game. Maybe you and your drops (due to ELO) are so l33t that you can headshot a moving Catapult at 800m away, across your vision moving from cover to cover almost 100% of the time *shrug*. I'm just speaking from experience.

Look... I AM a Catapult pilot, so any advantage they give the chassis I play I consider a plus. I am not even against making the head hitbox smaller (I have said that before). I do get headshot in that mech more than any other mech. I just am not going crazy because it maybe happens once every 20 games or so (and normally from a high damage alpha strike).

Also, anyone who says moving doesn't help, is full of crap. Besides, when I say moving makes it harder to hit, why do people respond with "moving doesn't PREVENT headshots". Not what I said, I said it helps and that a gread deal of headshots IN MY EXPERIENCE are from me staying stationary for sniper roles.

What I do take issue with is people saying that the hitbox cripples the mech and makes it unplayable for all but LRM duty, and then using that LAME "it's a support mech, deal with it" argument. That is full of it.

The Catapult (even with the head hitbox) is a good brawler if you want to use it as one. If the head hitbox (at least for me) was such an issue, I wouldn't be able to support a KDR over 0.25, yet somehow I can maintain a KDR of 2+ with it.

Maybe it is the ELO. Maybe I just aren't playing with the big boys or something, heck if I know.

[Ezekeel666]

Volthorne, on 17 June 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

And yes you DO have to list all the "advantages", considering you made the claim. That's how debates work, or did you not know that as well?

Exactly. That is how a proper argument works in the rest of the world that is not Dixieland.

pow pow, on 18 June 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

i m talking the 4 ppc k2 i am most experienced with

Stopped reading there.

[ROJ]

Catapult might have the most vulnerable cockpit hit-box as far as I experienced but I managed to get a habit of subconsciously avoid exposing myself to easy head-shots and mastered my cats.. IT IS MANAGEABLE and its not an issue..