233 replies to this topic

[Gallowglas]

MeiSooHaityu, on 18 June 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

Maybe we are playing a different game. Maybe you and your drops (due to ELO) are so l33t that you can headshot a moving Catapult at 800m away, across your vision moving from cover to cover almost 100% of the time *shrug*. I'm just speaking from experience.

Please don't put words in my mouth. It wasn't meant as an insult and I'm sorry if it came across that way. For all I know you could be in a higher Elo bracket. I'm just saying that maybe the experiences are different due to matchmaking. Who knows? All I know is that it's significant enough that I notice it. Heck, I popped one last night in my Cicada and I'm a TERRIBLE Cicada pilot.

MeiSooHaityu, on 18 June 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

Also, anyone who says moving doesn't help, is full of crap. Besides, when I say moving makes it harder to hit, why do people respond with "moving doesn't PREVENT headshots". Not what I said, I said it helps and that a gread deal of headshots IN MY EXPERIENCE are from me staying stationary for sniper roles.

It helps mainly because you make the head a moving target. Yes, it helps. I just don't think it helps that much.

MeiSooHaityu, on 18 June 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

What I do take issue with is people saying that the hitbox cripples the mech and makes it unplayable for all but LRM duty, and then using that LAME "it's a support mech, deal with it" argument. That is full of it.

I don't claim it's unplayable. I just think it's completely unwarranted in current gameplay. It a balance point for a strength that no longer exists due to weapon balancing and new mechs that often fill the same roles better.

MeiSooHaityu, on 18 June 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

The Catapult (even with the head hitbox) is a good brawler if you want to use it as one. If the head hitbox (at least for me) was such an issue, I wouldn't be able to support a KDR over 0.25, yet somehow I can maintain a KDR of 2+ with it.

I'm sure you can overcome adversity with good piloting. However, do you have a Cataphract or a Jaeger? What are your KDR's with those? I mainly come at this from the perspective of a Stalker, Highlander, and Ilya pilot. And, really, all I can speak from is my own perspective. Yes, I have a decent KDR in my Catapult. I've driven it for a few nights recently. It's not terrible. I just think it has an unnecessary and easily exploited handicap is all. I think the "ears" are enough of a liability on their own.

MeiSooHaityu, on 18 June 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

Maybe it is the ELO. Maybe I just aren't playing with the big boys or something, heck if I know.

Again, I'm sorry if that came across as elitist. It wasn't intended. I'm also not trying to buff the mech for self-serving purposes. I'm just objectively looking for balance. It's just something I routinely notice.

Edited by Gallowglas, 18 June 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I have a the Ilya (it's ok), however the darn arms are mounted too low in that chassis. I do have a Jager as well (currently set up with the dual AC20) and it is a good KDR mech as well (I tend to sustain over a 2.0 KDR with that as well). I have a Misery, but am currently struggling with it (although admitantly I am not a good Assault Pilot, I'm better with Heavies or Mediums).

I suppose I was a bit too defensive, but my point was that the mech can be piloted fine and put down damage very well. Like I had stated, I am not against a head hitbox change, but It isn't as crippling as many make it out to be.

I know you believe it is unwarranted, but honestly I do incredibly well with the mech. I know it bucks the Meta trend of dual AC20/Gauss or Gauss/PPC alpha builds, but I think with the high rate of heat dissipation it has (around 1.4), it sustains fire well (with almost no overheating) and tends to take people by suprise.

Good chance I can make that type of mech in ANY chassis, but I do like the Cat

[Ngamok]

Odnir, on 14 June 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

If they ever do decide to adjust it, I want them to add a new Challenge before they do:

Kill 5 mechs via cockpit destruction.

Then jagers will be in the same boast as I often cockpit them frequently because shooting slightly above middle isn't that hard.

[Ngamok]

KharnZor, on 18 June 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

oh come on now. you know what happens when you shoot the side torso's dont you? there are no arms to block damage......can you see where i'm going with this?

Same as the Stalker. From the side I rarely if ever hit the arms. It's all Torso. From the front, it's all torso too. I don't know how some people still only blow off the arms. Same goes for the Catapult except their arms are a little bigger and I can see why. Not slender like a Stalkers.

pow pow, on 18 June 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

catapults (especially the K2) are devastating top tier snipers. Having a big head is slight hindrance and easy to put up with. Did you know that they have a massive turn rate? ie you can twist and dodge/spread most intended headshots better than in other mech?

you are probably having a bad time because you take too long to aim and fire at enemies, hence you leave your center-mass exposed for too long. You should ideally play the catapult (i m talking the 4 ppc k2 i am most experienced with) from behind cover and poke to fire after your team has engaged so that you diminish the probabilities of being targeted / focused.

Most smart teams will focus k2's when they see them, so don't overexpose yourself and learn how to twist and turn better.

All Catapults had their twist rate reduced to 120. I think it used to be 140 before, can't remember off the top of my head.

[ExtremeA79]

POOTYTANGASAUR, on 17 June 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Then why is the jager totally clear of weaknesses that catapults have? they are ranged support mechs but have no handicap like the catapults. So answer that.

Jagermechs have alot less armor, doesn't have the turning/twisting as good of the catapult, and is optimized for direct fire support while the catapult is optimized at direct and indirect.

[ExtremeA79]

Gallowglas, on 18 June 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

Please don't put words in my mouth. It wasn't meant as an insult and I'm sorry if it came across that way. For all I know you could be in a higher Elo bracket. I'm just saying that maybe the experiences are different due to matchmaking. Who knows? All I know is that it's significant enough that I notice it. Heck, I popped one last night in my Cicada and I'm a TERRIBLE Cicada pilot.



It helps mainly because you make the head a moving target. Yes, it helps. I just don't think it helps that much.



I don't claim it's unplayable. I just think it's completely unwarranted in current gameplay. It a balance point for a strength that no longer exists due to weapon balancing and new mechs that often fill the same roles better.



I'm sure you can overcome adversity with good piloting. However, do you have a Cataphract or a Jaeger? What are your KDR's with those? I mainly come at this from the perspective of a Stalker, Highlander, and Ilya pilot. And, really, all I can speak from is my own perspective. Yes, I have a decent KDR in my Catapult. I've driven it for a few nights recently. It's not terrible. I just think it has an unnecessary and easily exploited handicap is all. I think the "ears" are enough of a liability on their own.



Again, I'm sorry if that came across as elitist. It wasn't intended. I'm also not trying to buff the mech for self-serving purposes. I'm just objectively looking for balance. It's just something I routinely notice.

I have a better KDR in my Jenner than my Raven, mostly because the Raven doesn't have the fire power or mobility of a Jenner. I love my Raven though, and I support my team by covering them with ECM and doing hit and runs and I am alot more picky about my battles in a Raven than in a Jenner. I win more in a Raven than a Jenner as well.
Judging whether a mech is better than another based on KDR is a foolish way to judge.

Because of ELO you might be faced with bad enemies and be teamed up with bad pilots, which is probably why you pop alot of cats/see alot of your teammates in cats popped.

Edited by Darren Tyler, 18 June 2013 - 02:55 PM.

[Gallowglas]

Darren Tyler, on 18 June 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

Because of ELO you might be faced with bad enemies and be teamed up with bad pilots, which is probably why you pop alot of cats/see alot of your teammates in cats popped.

Oh geez.

Okay, I wasn't making the claim that I was amazing, but I can assure you that I'm not a low Elo player either.

It's not just due to bad piloting. I can definitely tell the difference.

Edited by Gallowglas, 18 June 2013 - 08:49 PM.

[ExtremeA79]

Well I just wish we knew our ELO's.

[Gaan Cathal]

Darren Tyler, on 18 June 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

I have a better KDR in my Jenner than my Raven, mostly because the Raven doesn't have the fire power or mobility of a Jenner. I love my Raven though, and I support my team by covering them with ECM and doing hit and runs and I am alot more picky about my battles in a Raven than in a Jenner. I win more in a Raven than a Jenner as well.
Judging whether a mech is better than another based on KDR is a foolish way to judge.

Because of ELO you might be faced with bad enemies and be teamed up with bad pilots, which is probably why you pop alot of cats/see alot of your teammates in cats popped.

Catapults don't contribute non-damage aid to their team like a -3L does. Ergo your comparison is, frankly, flawed. The Catapult fulfills the same role in practice as a Cataphract. It's a fire-support mech, not a brawler you say? The -K2, -K4 and Butterbee contradict that. Even if it were so, the Jaegermech is, canonically, a fire-support mech and doesn't have a massive cockpit hitbox. And no, the trade-off there is not the ability to fit a safe XL, that is traded off for the vulnerability of an exposed CT.

I have about a 10% success rate killing Cats through the cockpit with a laser-boating Raven moving at ~150km/h. That's a fast moving mech with a DoD weapon. I can't do that to a Jaeger or a Quickdraw. Some might, I can't. As in, ever. 0/1% success to 10% success is a huge jump. And that's ignoring the abominably small Cataphract cockpit hitbox. A one in ten chance to kill a mech in a super-fast-kill manner with the absolute worst mech, weapon and aiming situation to do so is far too high. And that's ignoring the massive difference in difficulty between planting a long range spike-alpha (Guass+3PPC, 4-6PPC) volley in a Catapult's cockpit (more or less point and click inside ERPPC range if the Catapult isn't majorly weaving) versus a Cataphract's (damn near impossible for me, and I'm an adequate shot).

[Tor6]

Gaan Cathal, on 18 June 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

Catapults don't contribute non-damage aid to their team like a -3L does. Ergo your comparison is, frankly, flawed. The Catapult fulfills the same role in practice as a Cataphract. It's a fire-support mech, not a brawler you say? The -K2, -K4 and Butterbee contradict that. Even if it were so, the Jaegermech is, canonically, a fire-support mech and doesn't have a massive cockpit hitbox. And no, the trade-off there is not the ability to fit a safe XL, that is traded off for the vulnerability of an exposed CT.

I have about a 10% success rate killing Cats through the cockpit with a laser-boating Raven moving at ~150km/h. That's a fast moving mech with a DoD weapon. I can't do that to a Jaeger or a Quickdraw. Some might, I can't. As in, ever. 0/1% success to 10% success is a huge jump. And that's ignoring the abominably small Cataphract cockpit hitbox. A one in ten chance to kill a mech in a super-fast-kill manner with the absolute worst mech, weapon and aiming situation to do so is far too high. And that's ignoring the massive difference in difficulty between planting a long range spike-alpha (Guass+3PPC, 4-6PPC) volley in a Catapult's cockpit (more or less point and click inside ERPPC range if the Catapult isn't majorly weaving) versus a Cataphract's (damn near impossible for me, and I'm an adequate shot).

You're arguing with a guy who claims that the Jager has massively worse armor than a catapult and that's an advantage the cat has. Derp. I don't think any well-reasoned thing you say will make a difference.

[ExtremeA79]

Gaan Cathal, on 18 June 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

Catapults don't contribute non-damage aid to their team like a -3L does. Ergo your comparison is, frankly, flawed. The Catapult fulfills the same role in practice as a Cataphract. It's a fire-support mech, not a brawler you say? The -K2, -K4 and Butterbee contradict that. Even if it were so, the Jaegermech is, canonically, a fire-support mech and doesn't have a massive cockpit hitbox. And no, the trade-off there is not the ability to fit a safe XL, that is traded off for the vulnerability of an exposed CT.

I have about a 10% success rate killing Cats through the cockpit with a laser-boating Raven moving at ~150km/h. That's a fast moving mech with a DoD weapon. I can't do that to a Jaeger or a Quickdraw. Some might, I can't. As in, ever. 0/1% success to 10% success is a huge jump. And that's ignoring the abominably small Cataphract cockpit hitbox. A one in ten chance to kill a mech in a super-fast-kill manner with the absolute worst mech, weapon and aiming situation to do so is far too high. And that's ignoring the massive difference in difficulty between planting a long range spike-alpha (Guass+3PPC, 4-6PPC) volley in a Catapult's cockpit (more or less point and click inside ERPPC range if the Catapult isn't majorly weaving) versus a Cataphract's (damn near impossible for me, and I'm an adequate shot).

I have the biggest engine for my 3L and it only goes to somewhere in 130kph, and the maximum amount of lasers you can 'boat' is 3. How can I trust you, what you say, and anything in the future?

If you do somehow have a raven that goes that fast and 'boats' lasers (hardly boating) the reason you killed that cat is because you got up close, the catapults weakness. Of course it would be easy. You are in a fast lift mech that can dodge snipers, pick its fights, and retreat whenever. There is no way a catapult can beat you.
K2's are snipers, not brawlers, and I never talked about XL's.

Frankly, no mechs contribute to non combat other than lights and some mediums (capping, spotting) and keys that have a ECM (shielding, jamming) or BAP (countering ECM, better spotting). Catapults are made to dish of damage, like many other mechs.

Honestly I am looking at your post and it doesn't look like anything I would listen to.

[ExtremeA79]

Tor6, on 18 June 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

You're arguing with a guy who claims that the Jager has massively worse armor than a catapult and that's an advantage the cat has. Derp. I don't think any well-reasoned thing you say will make a difference.

I didn't say massively. Stock Jagermechs do have less armor and if your going to go ac40 you will probably drop some armor for ammo. Same thing for 4 ac2 or even 6 ac2.

[Gaan Cathal]

Darren Tyler, on 18 June 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

I have the biggest engine for my 3L and it only goes to somewhere in 130kph, and the maximum amount of lasers you can 'boat' is 3. How can I trust you, what you say, and anything in the future?

Your -3L goes at 136.5kph with a 295 rated engine, because you don't have Speed Tweak. I do, and it goes at 150.2kph (capped to 150 by speedcap). My use of the phrase 'laserboat' was to indicate that it doesn't use anything else (3MPLAS, incase you were wondering). Smurfy will quite happily serve as confirmation of my numbers if you doubt them.

Darren Tyler, on 18 June 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

If you do somehow have a raven that goes that fast and 'boats' lasers (hardly boating) the reason you killed that cat is because you got up close, the catapults weakness. Of course it would be easy. You are in a fast lift mech that can dodge snipers, pick its fights, and retreat whenever. There is no way a catapult can beat you.
K2's are snipers, not brawlers, and I never talked about XL's.

-K2: quad-LL, quad LPL (before today), 2 ERPPC + 2LL (odd, but I've seen it), 2xAC20, 2xAC/10+4MLAS, 2xUAC/5+4MLAS
-A1: 6SSRM2+BAP (tell me that won't f**k up a light)
-C1: 4MLAS+2LRMA20 is reasonably common and packs enough close range punch to worry a light, although not to the levels of the previous examples

Quite besides that - the point is I can get in close and murderate a Catapult by blowing his massive glass face off with an unsuited armament. I can't do that to a Jaeger. Both mechs are 'ranged fire support' models. Ergo, Catapult needs Jaeger-sized head.

Darren Tyler, on 18 June 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

Frankly, no mechs contribute to non combat other than lights and some mediums (capping, spotting) and keys that have a ECM (shielding, jamming) or BAP (countering ECM, better spotting). Catapults are made to dish of damage, like many other mechs.

This is my point. There is no role difference between the Catapult, a Jaeger or a Cataphract. Yet the Catapult has an arbitrary weakness.

Tor6, on 18 June 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

You're arguing with a guy who claims that the Jager has massively worse armor than a catapult and that's an advantage the cat has. Derp. I don't think any well-reasoned thing you say will make a difference.

It's going to be fun. I'm getting an odd urge to squark.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

buy a K2, 2 gauss, 2 medium lasers, xl 250, almost all the armor in the front, and 7 tons of ammo. The shape and weapon placement of the k2 is fantastic for corners, ridges, etc etc. getting on the side of opponents, even other gauss cats is easy if you pay attention to your surroundings.

[aniviron]

This thread is full of angst; I want you all to have a pretty picture instead.

Plus, it's relevant to the topic!

[The Cheese]

Darren Tyler, on 18 June 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

I didn't say massively. Stock Jagermechs do have less armor and if your going to go ac40 you will probably drop some armor for ammo.

Do people really drop from the Jager's stock armour levels to play an AC/40? Honest question. I've only played one for a few games, but I had the armour maxed aside from shaving just enough off the legs to get an even ton.

And to keep this relevant to the discussion: My own anecdotal evidence!
I played a Cat almost exclusively up until the Heavy Metal was released, and I could count on one hand how many times I was killed by a headshot. The last time it happened, it was at less than 50m from a dual gauss K2 and it happened because I made the rookie mistake of not waiting for him to get his guns on cooldown before I turned to face him and fire my own weapons.

Except for freak snapshots from good players, getting headshot regularly and purposefully just doesn't happen unless you set yourself up for it.

Edited by The Cheese, 19 June 2013 - 03:44 AM.

[Volts]

AC40 + 2 Med L, 6T Ammo, 260XL ~404 armor

is the standard build I believe.

[Echo6]

I just hope they give this stupid cockpit to the MadCat.

[Twisted Power]

Who plays catapults anyways. With the current matchmaker there is a better mech for every build you can do on any of those catapults. There is even a stalker with that can boat 5 streak srm 2's and you can still fit 4 LL's on it.

[Ngamok]

Gaan Cathal, on 18 June 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

Quite besides that - the point is I can get in close and murderate a Catapult by blowing his massive glass face off with an unsuited armament. I can't do that to a Jaeger. Both mechs are 'ranged fire support' models. Ergo, Catapult needs Jaeger-sized head.


This is my point. There is no role difference between the Catapult, a Jaeger or a Cataphract. Yet the Catapult has an arbitrary weakness.

That is the problem with the Catapult. If you let them get in close, you'll probably lose your head to a good shot. That's also the JagerMech's problem because if you can hit a Catapult facing you, you can also do it to them as well because that cockpit is right there in front of you just above center. The Cataphract is harder for me to hit as it's more slender.

Last night I head shot two Dragons. No one complains about their cockpit but guess what, if you run a dual AC or Gauss build if you aim high above the torso, you'll head shot them. It's kind of easy if you try it. The worst thing that can happen is you miss or you hit CT.

Edited by Ngamok, 19 June 2013 - 06:48 AM.