174 replies to this topic

[SpiralRazor]

Victor Morson, on 14 June 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

Balancing anything from forum complaints is a bad idea. I don't mind the jumping nerf to be honest, but I've long held that they just need to buff the infighting weapons - Pulse, Ballistic, SRM - and it would have resolved itself. Other changes, however, concern me... like when they jumped on LRMs due to people not getting how they worked, or this completely backwards mind boggling "anti-alphastrike" system PGI is working on, crippling 'mechs that aren't even that good.

I've said it before but I'll say it again, they need to open a dialogue with the best teams in the game right now and take their input as the most valuable. They understand the game. Yes, you might be worried about offending the PUGs PGI, but they want a balanced game too, even if they have horrible ideas of how to balance it. I'm sure they'd be happy if great players help steer your future decisions in the long run.

I agree wholeheartedly........Listen up Brian/Paul.......Keep the forums open for the whiners and ineffectuals...but please start contacting the top end players and listen to there feedback. For a competitive game, the only people whos opinions matter are those at the top. What happens in normal play isnt of much concern, because its casual.

Sorry for all of the rest of you, but thats how it is. Take LoL for an example....makes a ton of money, only the top teams meta has any impact on play. LoL is where MWO dreams it could be.

[Petroshka]

Xmith, on 14 June 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

Take the jump snipers for example. People shouted and cried that they were making the game unbalanced. It seems most hated jump snipers. People were full aware that there are snipers in the game.

The problem with jump sniping was that it was too easy, the default mode of play. Jump snipers, even with a tiny amount of skill would outplay many other builds and the only counter was to be a jump sniper yourself.

This drove the game into a silly whackamole marathon, which is not what PGI had intended in their vision, so they changed it.

[Kibble]

Xmith, on 14 June 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

The devs trys to help out people so that they can have fun and enjoy the game. It's a losing cause because competitive player skill level will never happen. Especially if PGI is working toward a high player count.

I don't know. I kinda like having players to play against.

[Inhibition]

SpiralRazor, on 18 June 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

I agree wholeheartedly........Listen up Brian/Paul.......Keep the forums open for the whiners and ineffectuals...but please start contacting the top end players and listen to there feedback. For a competitive game, the only people whos opinions matter are those at the top. What happens in normal play isnt of much concern, because its casual.

Sorry for all of the rest of you, but thats how it is. Take LoL for an example....makes a ton of money, only the top teams meta has any impact on play. LoL is where MWO dreams it could be.

Hey, I agree with you for the most part. If the game keeps babying the people who complain
about builds that are "overpowered", the game will break. There will ALWAYS be a more powerful build.
People don't understand; it seems like all the complaints want every mech to carry the exact same weapon.

I think you make a good point; please read my thread: http://mwomercs.com/...-to-be-changed/

Where I disagree with you is where you say "the only people whos opinions matter are those at the top." Not entirely true.
MWO must protect its newer players because it doesn't have a large player base as does LoL.
Because if there are no newer players to expand the player base in the first place, then the portion of top players will not
expand

[Inhibition]

Petroshka, on 18 June 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

The problem with jump sniping was that it was too easy, the default mode of play. Jump snipers, even with a tiny amount of skill would outplay many other builds and the only counter was to be a jump sniper yourself.

This drove the game into a silly whackamole marathon, which is not what PGI had intended in their vision, so they changed it.

Okay people like you have to think a little bit more.
Jump snipers lose a lot of effectivity at brawling, even though it may not seem like it to you.
Jump sniping is not easy; I've tried it myself, so I am familiar with its advantages as well as disadvantages.
You are not talking jump sniping disadvantages into account.
Jump snipers are slow, have poor heat control, and will have difficulty hitting fast targets up close. Ever tried
flanking a jump sniper?

[PEEFsmash]

Inhibition, on 19 June 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Okay people like you have to think a little bit more.
Jump snipers lose a lot of effectivity at brawling, even though it may not seem like it to you.
Jump sniping is not easy; I've tried it myself, so I am familiar with its advantages as well as disadvantages.
You are not talking jump sniping disadvantages into account.
Jump snipers are slow, have poor heat control, and will have difficulty hitting fast targets up close. Ever tried
flanking a jump sniper?

These are all true facts, but brawlers are so bad, and have so much less DPS than they should, that even though snipers are anemic at brawling, so are brawlers!

[Pht]

Xmith, on 14 June 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

You can have the appearance of weapon balance but because of the skill level of players, the game itself can never have balanced play.

Weapons are not OP, the skill level of players makes the game appear unbalanced. Take the jump snipers for example. People shouted and cried that they were making the game unbalanced. It seems most hated jump snipers. People were full aware that there are snipers in the game. Knowing this fact, they still chose not to use cover. What were the snipers suppose do? Tell them to get back under cover before they shoot them? All this has been discussed and the snipers were basically saying what not to do if you don't what to be sniped.

That was just one example. Some recent nerfs seem to be geared toward the less skilled. In itself it seems to make sense. The devs trys to help out people so that they can have fun and enjoy the game. It's a losing cause because competitive player skill level will never happen. Especially if PGI is working toward a high player count.

This is a side effect of NOT having the battlemech's ability to handle it's weapons count for as much as it should count in the game.

PGI has no tools to balance for those who are GREAT at manipulating a reticule and timing a shot vs noobs that WON'T tick off said highly skilled players.

This is a game that's supposed to be about piloting a 'mech in combat.

The 'mechs should matter more.

[White Bear 84]

DerSpecht, on 14 June 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

I dont understand what you mean by skill. In my world bringing a beat up hunch against 2x 6LL stalkers in a brawl, coring them, and winning the game is skill. Hopping around and shooting is not.

Bringing a 4 MG spider to a fight, coring a stalker, cataphract and Jagermech, that is skill.

Playing whack a mole with the enemy team (i.e. poptarting) is not.

[Purlana]

Inhibition, on 19 June 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Okay people like you have to think a little bit more.
Jump snipers lose a lot of effectivity at brawling, even though it may not seem like it to you.
Jump sniping is not easy; I've tried it myself, so I am familiar with its advantages as well as disadvantages.
You are not talking jump sniping disadvantages into account.
Jump snipers are slow, have poor heat control, and will have difficulty hitting fast targets up close. Ever tried
flanking a jump sniper?

Except when the whole team is made out of jump snipers you can't get close enough. While you try to flank your going to get striped of armor. Anything slower then a light is going to have a bad time getting into range. It's not surprising they nerfed it...

Edited by Purlana, 19 June 2013 - 04:53 PM.

[Rebas Kradd]

This game reminds me of the hand-wringing over the AWP in Counter-Strike. One-shot sniper rifle, pretty powerful, could dominate entire matches in the right hands. A lot of people wanted it nerfed, even years into the game's popularity, to the point that "no-AWP servers" existed.

Of course, the whiners never fully realized that they were reacting to AWPs by huddling around the corner in fear, doing nothing, waiting for someone else to venture out so they wouldn't get shot. The result was a team that streamed into the AWPer's sights one by one and made it far, far easier for the AWPer than it needed to be.

Rush an AWPer with more than one teammate, especially from more than one direction, and he was usually dead.

[Keifomofutu]

Rebas Kradd, on 19 June 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

This game reminds me of the hand-wringing over the AWP in Counter-Strike. One-shot sniper rifle, pretty powerful, could dominate entire matches in the right hands. A lot of people wanted it nerfed, even years into the game's popularity, to the point that "no-AWP servers" existed.

Of course, the whiners never fully realized that they were reacting to AWPs by huddling around the corner in fear, doing nothing, waiting for someone else to venture out so they wouldn't get shot. The result was a team that streamed into the AWPer's sights one by one and made it far, far easier for the AWPer than it needed to be.

Rush an AWPer with more than one teammate, especially from more than one direction, and he was usually dead.

What a useless argument. If you need two people to deal with one guy with a specific weapon then it's definitely overpowered.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Inhibition, on 19 June 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

People don't understand; it seems like all the complaints want every mech to carry the exact same weapon.

I don't think this is true ... I think most players want most weapons (maybe all weapons?) to be viable in some situations. Assuming equal skill, no one piece of equipment (or specific combination of equipment) should be a significant factor in determining wins.

Along the same lines, if some players start using a particular piece of equipment or loadout, and their Elo scores start rapidly climbing, chances are their "skill" did not really improve.

There will always be ineffective builds, and finding what is effective for you as a player is part of the game, but when a specific build is the "most effective" for a signficant number of players, something is out of balance.

[Rebas Kradd]

Keifomofutu, on 19 June 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

What a useless argument. If you need two people to deal with one guy with a specific weapon then it's definitely overpowered.

Too simplistic. The only way to make teamwork relevant is to create problems that cannot be overcome by one person. If everything came down to 1-on-1, teamwork would be useless and the game would be boring.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 19 June 2013 - 07:00 PM.

[Fyrerock]

PEEFsmash, on 19 June 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

These are all true facts, but brawlers are so bad, and have so much less DPS than they should, that even though snipers are anemic at brawling, so are brawlers!

up close and personal how often does a brawler loose to a sniper, about the only time I am able to pull it off is if I get a lucky head shot on the brawler. Even medium brawler mechs have it easy against assault snipers if they get close, and almost every single fight in the end gets close and personal.

About the only time I see brawlers have problems is the assault brawler mech that will go over a hill and engage 3 plus snipers at once then call OP when they die a few seconds later.

[Fyrerock]

White Bear 84, on 19 June 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

Bringing a 4 MG spider to a fight, coring a stalker, cataphract and Jagermech, that is skill.

Playing whack a mole with the enemy team (i.e. poptarting) is not.

The game is about having fun, just because you do not enjoy poptarting does not mean it is not fun for the people who do. People should be allowed to play any way they want, which means all types of styles of play should be allowed from brawling to snipping to poptarting.

[Purlana]

Fyrerock, on 19 June 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

About the only time I see brawlers have problems is the assault brawler mech that will go over a hill and engage 3 plus snipers at once then call OP when they die a few seconds later.

That's because everyone else is too busy sniping to help a brawler. Getting a PUG to push is like pulling teeth.

Edited by Purlana, 19 June 2013 - 07:04 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Fyrerock, on 19 June 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

The game is about having fun, just because you do not enjoy poptarting does not mean it is not fun for the people who do. People should be allowed to play any way they want, which means all types of styles of play should be allowed from brawling to snipping to poptarting.

not when it totally changes the meta and forces everyone else to play that same style to compete. You sound like a smoker declaring it's your right to smoke next to my toddler.

[Delas Ting Usee]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 June 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

not when it totally changes the meta and forces everyone else to play that same style to compete. You sound like a smoker declaring it's your right to smoke next to my toddler.

But its an electronic cigerette, the smoke I'm breathing out...that's water vapor.

[Jestun]

Xmith, on 14 June 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

Weapons are not OP

Stopped reading here.

If you don't care about balance then don't post about it. Denying there is such a thing as balance and saying little more than "adapt or die" just makes you look foolish.

:edit:

In fact "adapt or die" people shouldn't even be beta testing, they clearly have no intention of testing and offering feedback, just mocking those who they think need to L2P (which is usually anyone who disagrees with them).

Edited by Jestun, 20 June 2013 - 04:22 AM.

[tenderloving]

Jestun, on 20 June 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

Stopped reading here.

If you don't care about balance then don't post about it. Denying there is such a thing as balance and saying little more than "adapt or die" just makes you look foolish.

:edit:

In fact "adapt or die" people shouldn't even be beta testing, they clearly have no intention of testing and offering feedback, just mocking those who they think need to L2P (which is usually anyone who disagrees with them).

"adapt or die" always makes me smirk, because it carries so much hypocrisy. If the person spewing this nonsense really walked the walk, they wouldn't be commenting on any balance changes.

If you can truly adapt to any situation, then you shouldn't be giving your opinion, or even have the desire to weigh in on any debate. You are above the game, and you can succeed regardless of what it throws at you because of your adaptability. If anything, constant extreme nerfs and buffs give you, the ultimate adapter, an advantage over your slowly evolving opponents.