174 replies to this topic

[cyberFluke]

[redacted]

On topic though, the small playerbase is hindering the matchmaker in keeping players of similar skill together, that and it's not perfect yet by a little ways.

Edited by miSs, 17 June 2013 - 09:25 AM.
directed attacks + quote clean up

[Kwibl]

I enjoy reading these types of threads from 4-man warriors and lone wolves.

Please, participate in the meta before discussing balance. At the very least, do an 8 man and experience what these builds are like when an entire team is stacking them and knows exactly what they should be doing, not one or two guys in random match making who can't control the rest of their team abandoning them for your leet manuever warfare (read: luck) to kick in.

Nothing is overpowered when there's one of them, if there were one pop tart, or one PPC stalker in a match, i wouldn't care at all. When you start stacking these builds in a coordinated team their downsides begin to disappear and you would be very hard pressed to use cover for anything other than hiding and waiting for a draw.

[cyberFluke]

Kwibl, on 16 June 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

I enjoy reading these types of threads from 4-man warriors and lone wolves.

Please, participate in the meta before discussing balance. At the very least, do an 8 man and experience what these builds are like when an entire team is stacking them and knows exactly what they should be doing, not one or two guys in random match making who can't control the rest of their team abandoning them for your leet manuever warfare (read: luck) to kick in.

Nothing is overpowered when there's one of them, if there were one pop tart, or one PPC stalker in a match, i wouldn't care at all. When you start stacking these builds in a coordinated team their downsides begin to disappear and you would be very hard pressed to use cover for anything other than hiding and waiting for a draw.

Well put. The guys I drop with have had to resort to stacking a DDC build that covers each other to avoid joining the PPC meta. A bunch of the top guys are considering "taking a break" as they're sick of the lack of/very slow progress.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Kwibl, on 16 June 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

(shortened for brevity) ... participate in the meta before discussing balance ... Nothing is overpowered when there's one of them ...

I agree with the points you make ... but non-participation in "the meta" does not mean that we cannot have a reasonable opinion or discussion about the balance of the game. My observation of "the meta" is that it is more about exploiting the game's imbalances. It does not take detailed personal experience to realize that a strong, coordinated defense will overcome a haphazard offense. It just so happens that right now, PPCs and Gauss provide the most effective strong defense.

As PGI adjusts, so will the players, and the meta will change.

And you're right ... one high-alpha sniper doesn't bother me any more than anything else when I PUG (which is most of the time).

[Sam Slade]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 16 June 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

I agree with the points you make ... but non-participation in "the meta" does not mean that we cannot have a reasonable opinion or discussion about the balance of the game. My observation of "the meta" is that it is more about exploiting the game's imbalances.

This is very true... as soon as anything changes the 'compedative' players stack on the cheese builds and make the 8 man que a pretty lacklustre place; persoonally I think Community Warfare will be a hilarious semi-exploit extravaganza at a 'compedative' level... I'm hoping it will be more fun at the general level.

I went back to PUGs mainly due to a lack of time for co-ordinated play; after the ELO was introduced I found myself tanking my ELO by spending time experimenting with build and weapons and so on, generallly screwing around, as soon as I got out of the ELO bracket which contains mainly mixed mech loadouts.

Now before 'uberskillz' jumps in and says 'lols, u sux L2P noob' I think you'll find that quite a few players do this simply so they can have what they consider a more Mechwarrior-ish game experience; a couple of boats(because they should exist in some roles) a couple of Assaults and a range of multi-role mechs. It's just more fun then hill humping and so forth; I'm happy to play with folks in trial mechs and the like if it means I get variety on the battlefield... hate hate hate cookie cutter games and I'm a little irritated that the 'great players' in the MWO community have reduced the clan wars environment to min/max Johnny Moronics.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Quote

Now before 'uberskillz' jumps in and says 'lols, u sux L2P noob' I think you'll find that quite a few players do this simply so they can have what they consider a more Mechwarrior-ish game experience; a couple of boats(because they should exist in some roles) a couple of Assaults and a range of multi-role mechs. It's just more fun then hill humping and so forth; I'm happy to play with folks in trial mechs and the like if it means I get variety on the battlefield... hate hate hate cookie cutter games and I'm a little irritated that the 'great players' in the MWO community have reduced the clan wars environment to min/max Johnny Moronics.

Love it.

I currently have 19 mechs ... the only two that I would consider close to being "cheese builds" are my JR7-D (3xML, Tag, 2xSSRM-2) and my JR7-F (5xML, Tag). Everything else is unique to how I like the particular 'mech ... I played all of them (one PUG game each) yesterday ... overall, I had fun in all of them ... I won more than I lost, killed more than I died.

Am I a bad player because I like my 2xLL, AC/20 CTF-3D? my 2xLL, LB-10X Fang? I hope not, because they're two of my best mechs.

I'm sure there is some Elo threshold where you must group up with 3 other "min/max Johnny Moronics" and synch drop with another like-minded 4-man to win most of the time ... I haven't crossed it, and hope I never do.

[Aggressor666]

PEEFsmash, on 14 June 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

Here's Nevarfar again, here to tell us that nobody is any good at this game, and that even the top players are no better than anyone else.
Good post OP. This community in general is quite low-skilled and, like Neverfar, PROUD OF IT. Proud to be bad might as well be the subtitle of this community. Top competitive players are just cheap, boating, tryhard elitists wanting to swang their e-peen, right? Wake up. This community is never going to get over its ebbs and flows of balance cries unless it mans up and starts actually improving its own level of skill. Learn to aim, learn to position yourselves. If you aren't willing to improve your own play, your balance advice based on personal in-game experience is worthless. Low player skill is ruining balance discussion. #MakeEloPublic (Or give us leagues/leaderboards...)

totally agree I very rarely have a "good game" per-se you know a real pitched battle where it is un known who will win till the last man dies
usually its just one side rickrolls the other and most times when Im on the losing team I see that most of my team mates have incredible skill shooting clouds or rocks or best of all other team mates...

[TOGSolid]

Purlana, on 15 June 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

If you have "skill" you should still be able to jump snipe...

Truth. You can still do it. The only people bitching that "it's gone" are the FOTM scrubs that just follow whatever trend is hot and easy (inbf4 like your mom) and then just whine when their current cheese gets knocked down. I still jump snipe and don't have any issues with the shake.

[MischiefSC]

While I'm not top tier I have a couple of friends who are. Mostly it's a product of constant grinding - experience being one of the best teachers.

I don't agree with OP. Balance issues are balance issues. While I don't agree that everything PGI has done to 'balance' things has actually been a good idea I do like jump jet shake and I say that as someone who's fallen in love with the Highlander and still drives a C4 sometimes. JJs are at best a benefit to maneuverability, not a means to shoot until you overheat then let gravity take you out of LOS for your target. JJ shake has made all the non-JJ mechs viable again which is shown by their presence in the field. Still plenty of Phracts, Highlanders and Jenners out there kicking metal a$$ - they're not gimped, just brought into balance.

I'm not a big fan of the new heat metric concept. Fussy and overly-complicated. Just put PPC heat back into balance. 10/10 for PPC, 15/10 for ERPPC. The damage from overheating is great - that and PPC heat rebalancing will solve issues on their own. With state rewind that would make PPCs a balanced gamble again instead of the obvious clear choice for any ranged build. You see lights with PPCs/ERPPCs now, everyone has them, they're clearly the go-to weapon.

Put PPC heat back. Higher heat but instant damage delivery and with state rewind pinpoint accuracy. Increase their projectile speed by 10% or so to compensate - this gives them a buff while simultaneously making them less perfect to match with the no-heat Gauss for that 35-45 alpha that the PPC/Gauss combo gives.

About 98% of players fall somewhere in the 45-55% range for skill. Balancing the game for or against the other 2% is pointless.

Edited by MischiefSC, 16 June 2013 - 09:23 PM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

This is the only part of your post I disagree with ...

Quote

About 98% of players fall somewhere in the 45-55% range for skill. Balancing the game for or against the other 2% is pointless.

PGI should be looking at all their metrics to determine the current state of balance. The "leading indicator" for what is currently over- (or under-) powered is what equipment/mech/module is winning (or losing) the most games in the top tier, because a slight advantage is all it takes to tip the scale at that level, and they know how to find and exploit those advantages.

Note: I know that not all of the top tier players are min/maxing ... some of them are just spectacular players ... I have had the opportunity to play with or watch some of them.

Once those trends are identified (word of mouth, forum gripes, live streams, youtube, etc.) they will trickle down to the masses and become the "flavor of the month" ... some players will adopt them, others will not ... and then those trends will be amplified across the game, where a significant number of players in the FOTM win more often than anyone else.

I don't agree with everything PGI does, but given that the source material is imbalanced to start with, written for a turn-based dice roll environment and not a first-person shooter, I think they've done a decent job trying to keep things mostly under control, especially considering the game has only been in production for just over a year.

I don't envy the task they have in front of them trying to gently tweak things into some semblance of balance without the game swinging wildly out of their control (like it did during the LRMpocalypse).

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 16 June 2013 - 11:16 PM.

[Lykaon]

Xmith, on 14 June 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

You can have the appearance of weapon balance but because of the skill level of players, the game itself can never have balanced play.

Weapons are not OP, the skill level of players makes the game appear unbalanced. Take the jump snipers for example. People shouted and cried that they were making the game unbalanced. It seems most hated jump snipers. People were full aware that there are snipers in the game. Knowing this fact, they still chose not to use cover. What were the snipers suppose do? Tell them to get back under cover before they shoot them? All this has been discussed and the snipers were basically saying what not to do if you don't what to be sniped.

That was just one example. Some recent nerfs seem to be geared toward the less skilled. In itself it seems to make sense. The devs trys to help out people so that they can have fun and enjoy the game. It's a losing cause because competitive player skill level will never happen. Especially if PGI is working toward a high player count.

The real problem of poptarting wasn't the tactic it was how this tactic vastly improved upon the exploiting of a poor design choice.

The poor design choice I refer to is weapon convergence AND the current armor location/value system ineraction.

This game (like it's predecesors) took a mechanic from the table top game without also taking the supporting game mechanics to prevent exploitation of that same mechanic.

So we have distinct mech body locations with limited armor values for those locations AND we have weapons that if grouped and fired at the same time all hit the same location.

Poptarting allowed for massive alpha strikes to be applied to targets AND vastly reduced the exposure to enemy fire.

The issue is PGI has developed a pattern of altering mechanic X to fix a problem with mechanic Y.

They do not go directly to mechanic Y and address that.

LRM/SSRMs need adjustments = ECM to them
ECM needs adjustments = TAG,Modules,BAP etc to them
Huge alpha strikes a problem = jumpjets to them

[HiplyRustic]

Kwibl, on 16 June 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

I enjoy reading these types of threads from 4-man warriors and lone wolves.

Please, participate in the meta before discussing balance. At the very least, do an 8 man and experience what these builds are like when an entire team is stacking them and knows exactly what they should be doing, not one or two guys in random match making who can't control the rest of their team abandoning them for your leet manuever warfare (read: luck) to kick in.

Nothing is overpowered when there's one of them, if there were one pop tart, or one PPC stalker in a match, i wouldn't care at all. When you start stacking these builds in a coordinated team their downsides begin to disappear and you would be very hard pressed to use cover for anything other than hiding and waiting for a draw.

There are more pugs than not, it was always thus...and always will be so.

Simply put; anyone pugging is participating in the metagame, as casuals will always outnumber the hardcore. PGI knows this, they know they count on the casuals for the bulk of their planned income after launch, and they know who they really have to balance for.

Having said that, all you've really asked for a is a drop-limit in 8 mans by chassis and sub-class. Nothing inherently wrong with that approach.

This isn't an e-sport, where PGI's credibility hangs in the balance if they can't manage an even competitive landscape for the chosen few...

Edited by HiplyRustic, 17 June 2013 - 04:25 AM.

[RG Notch]

Stoicblitzer, on 15 June 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

i agree some people don't understand the game. how do you counter a 4man of PPC stalkers?

Ask for nerfs, actually that applies to anything that is causing you issues. Solve pretty much any issue without any effort on the player part and that's what the aim is right? Level the playing field. Well anyone who's better is obviously cheating or exploiting. Once you realize that simple truism it all makes sense.

[Zerberus]

HiplyRustic, on 17 June 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

There are more pugs than not, it was always thus...and always will be so.

Simply put; anyone pugging is participating in the metagame, as casuals will always outnumber the hardcore. PGI knows this, they know they count on the casuals for the bulk of their planned income after launch, and they know who they really have to balance for.

Having said that, all you've really asked for a is a drop-limit in 8 mans by chassis and sub-class. Nothing inherently wrong with that approach.

Aff.

Quote

This isn't an e-sport, where PGI's credibility hangs in the balance if they can't manage an even competitive landscape for the chosen few...

Have fun getting that message across to the Church of Skill. You know, the "elite" 2% that are such awesome players hat they`ve done nothing but whine about JJ shake, complain about LRM buiffs, flame newbies, attack others ad hominem, and demand Public Elo scores for the past month or so

Edited by Zerberus, 17 June 2013 - 05:25 AM.

[Koreanese]

I nominate all the people accusing people of cheating and hacking during tourney as elites. Clearly, if there are people better then them, they are all hackers n cheaters. No one is better them. Period.

[mack sabbath]

Koreanese, on 17 June 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

I nominate all the people accusing people of cheating and hacking during tourney as elites. Clearly, if there are people better then them, they are all hackers n cheaters. No one is better them. Period.

I enjoy your videos, hope to see you pilot Misery in one someday. Thanks for all the hard work Koreanese!

[Shae Starfyre]

Aside from the example not being the best example, OP makes an interesting point.

And, aside from actual team play coordinating tactical engagements, whereby they truly take into consideration all possible combat variables, and not build based on the flavor of the month, there is no easy play button. If you do not know what I mean by this statement, I don't know what to say.

Aside from that, I think that player skills does skew what constitutes balance in this game in the minds of those who perceive it as such.

Take our heads out of the game for an instant, and imagine a commander about to drop 8 pilots onto a hostile world with little intelligence into what will be encountered.

You have to imagine that there are no boundary lines, that there are no FOM builds, and that people actual value their lives and the cost of repairs.

Given this, and with an objective in mind, like taking a resource cache or what have you, the group might consist of the following:

1 or 2 scouts (but most likely one scout to go forward of the position to ensure no ambush, but, maybe another to circle the team at a distance to ensure no flank attack).

1 or 2 mediums to engage fast attack lights and mediums engaged in attack and run tactics; to back up the heavies and assault's flanks.

1 or 2 heavies and 1 or 2 assaults or mix therein.

Most pilots will balance their load outs due to uncertainty of engagement range, terrain, and possible threats.

If they have jump jets it will not be for pop-tarting but maneuverability.

Almost all heavies and assaults will have one long missile system (some mediums); this is a group boating of LRMS during concentrated fire.

Most of the assaults if not all and a few heavies might have ONE er/ppc; this is a group boating of PPC during concentrated fire.

Some will be specialized in something particular, but this would be rare due to many factors already mentioned.

Another-words, balance cannot be determined by weapons and mechs alone, but need to also consider the big picture of engagement possibilities, pilot skills, terrain and objectives.

Because one pilot can boat something does not make it imbalanced or op, or even make the pilot skilled or not.

What is really imbalanced in this game is lack of communication, lack of diversity in terrain and objectives, and lack of mechanics that promotes imbalanced weapon platforms.

[Valore]

The answer lies somewhere in between.

Poptart mechanics needed to be tweaked. Simply put, the risk/reward for poptarting was way too skewed in favour of the poptart. PGI looked to address that, so that issue is closed.

Doesn't mean the plebs calling for nerfs all round because poptarting required 'no skill' were anywhere near right though. Many of these were the same twits who insist on charging up to the enemy lines to get their brawl going.

[Livewyr]

Koreanese, on 17 June 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

I nominate all the people accusing people of cheating and hacking during tourney as elites. Clearly, if there are people better then them, they are all hackers n cheaters. No one is better them. Period.

Hacker.

[Renalvic3312]

I think that all weapons should be buffed high in one area and nerfed in another, by doing this the weapons will have variety and people might think before alpha firing. E.G

LRMS generate insane amounts of heat, missiles scatter further with more heat (affects targeting or something) but deal a massive 2-3 damage a missile.

Auto cannons generate less heat, have longer range but less ammo per ton (and lose accuracy if more 2 shots are fired in 0.5 second intervals)

Lasers are constant and generate heat the same way flame thrower generates heat (Heats up slow at beginning and then speeds up) dealing constant damage but promoting heat management.

PPCs should have longer range, ERPPC should have a minimum range of 200~ and normal PPCs 120~ and should deal very large heat damage.

SRMS should have a large damage boost, generating more heat, and accuracy declining due to heat.

Anyway, that's my opinion and you can disregard it if you want.

(This would create a much harder game to play and a much more unpredictable game, which I think it should be)