174 replies to this topic

[Fyrerock]

Renalvic3312, on 17 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

I think that all weapons should be buffed high in one area and nerfed in another, by doing this the weapons will have variety and people might think before alpha firing. E.G

LRMS generate insane amounts of heat, missiles scatter further with more heat (affects targeting or something) but deal a massive 2-3 damage a missile.

Auto cannons generate less heat, have longer range but less ammo per ton (and lose accuracy if more 2 shots are fired in 0.5 second intervals)

Lasers are constant and generate heat the same way flame thrower generates heat (Heats up slow at beginning and then speeds up) dealing constant damage but promoting heat management.

PPCs should have longer range, ERPPC should have a minimum range of 200~ and normal PPCs 120~ and should deal very large heat damage.

SRMS should have a large damage boost, generating more heat, and accuracy declining due to heat.

Anyway, that's my opinion and you can disregard it if you want.

(This would create a much harder game to play and a much more unpredictable game, which I think it should be)

If they made these changes, nobody will use long range weapons and all fights will turn into brawls. As it is almost every fight turns into a brawl now, so why would anyone use LRM and PPC with the way you want them designed.

[Bishop Steiner]

Fyrerock, on 17 June 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

If they made these changes, nobody will use long range weapons and all fights will turn into brawls. As it is almost every fight turns into a brawl now, so why would anyone use LRM and PPC with the way you want them designed.

also what would be the point of even pretending to call it a Mechwarrior Game anymore?

Sorry for all you twitch shooters out there, but NO. If you want to play a Mechwarriro game that ISN"T mechwarrior, Hawken is desperate for players.

[PEEFsmash]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 June 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

also what would be the point of even pretending to call it a Mechwarrior Game anymore?

Sorry for all you twitch shooters out there, but NO. If you want to play a Mechwarriro game that ISN"T mechwarrior, Hawken is desperate for players.

Mechwarrior is desperate for players that can aim. I wouldn't ask the ones we have to leave.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 17 June 2013 - 05:45 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

PEEFsmash, on 17 June 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

Mechwarrior is desperate for players that can aim. I wouldn't ask the ones we have to leave.

No point making an IP, then totally ******** on what makes the IP the IP.

[Ted Wayz]

OP is right on but should expect backlash. Why? Because if it isn't game balance then some players will have to admit they are just plain bad. And for some special snowflakes that possibility doesn't exist.

All PvP games will be imbalanced to some degree due to variability in player skill.

[Gaden Phoenix]

I am a fan of lessening the impact of player skill as well as imbalanced data gathering.

It has been proven in games like LoL, Dota, etc, that gathering suggestions from top tier players (without gimped builds) is near always a better way to balance. Especially if taken into consideration player data as well as forum discussions.

Since PGI has the data, they can easily find the better players and ask their advice. Then get them and others to test the changes out in a TEST server before implementing it. I believe it will sure beat the current 2 steps forwards, 1 step back bi-monthly approach they ahve going on.

I even posted a topic here, which seems to get a post by 2 extremist from both sides of the issue, some moderate views and then nothing else
http://mwomercs.com/...38#entry2447138

Edited by Gaden Phoenix, 17 June 2013 - 08:46 PM.

[Keifomofutu]

Gaden Phoenix, on 17 June 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

I am a fan of lessening the impact of player skill as well as imbalanced data gathering.

It has been proven in games like LoL, Dota, etc, that gathering suggestions from top tier players (without gimped builds) is near always a better way to balance. Especially if taken into consideration player data as well as forum discussions.

Since PGI has the data, they can easily find the better players and ask their advice. Then get them and others to test the changes out in a TEST server before implementing it. I believe it will sure beat the current 2 steps forwards, 1 step back bi-monthly approach they ahve going on.

I even posted a topic here, which seems to get a post by 2 extremist from both sides of the issue.
http://mwomercs.com/...38#entry2447138

The idea falls apart when weapons like lrms that are easy to use, but have a low skill ceiling are mentioned. Even during the periods of lrm 2-shot salvos the good teams never had issue with them because they were easy to avoid. But when used pugging the LRMs just obliterated the random pug teams. Weapons like that cause a huge imbalance in effectiveness when you compare them in pugs and 8-mans.

Streaks could be considered in the same category. Good 8-mans can focus the streak cats down easily. Pugs get wiped out.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 17 June 2013 - 08:50 PM.

[Gaden Phoenix]

Keifomofutu, on 17 June 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

The idea falls apart when weapons like lrms that are easy to use, but have a low skill ceiling are mentioned. Even during the periods of lrm 2-shot salvos the good teams never had issue with them because they were easy to avoid. But when used pugging the LRMs just obliterated the random pug teams. Weapons like that cause a huge imbalance in effectiveness when you compare them in pugs and 8-mans. Streaks could be considered in the same category. Good 8-mans can focus the streak cats down easily. Pugs get wiped out.

To me, this is a case of why you cannot have PUGs balancing a game. Because streaks and LRMs have not really been that big of any issue until PGI started playing with their values (not to say they were perfect). It is how people react to LRMs and SSRMs. Which is to stand there and "take it like a man".

To me, this actually proves the point that PGI needs to get view and consult pro players to see what is really a matter of game balance, what is a matter of player skill balance and what is a matter at which both converge. Thus allowing them to make better decisions.

Edited by Gaden Phoenix, 17 June 2013 - 09:02 PM.

[Keifomofutu]

Gaden Phoenix, on 17 June 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

To me, this is a case of why you cannot have PUGs balancing a game. Because streaks and LRMs have not really been that big of any issue until PGI started playing with their values (not to say they were perfect). It is how people react to LRMs and SSRMs. Which is to stand there and "take it like a man".

To me, this actually proves the point that PGI needs to get view and consult pro players to see what is really a matter of game balance, what is a matter of player skill balance and what is a matter at which both converge. Thus allowing them to make better decisions.

If you're happy with the average player thinking your game is an unbalanced mess then sure. But don't expect to keep the servers open with just the 1% of supercompetitive's being happy.

[Gaden Phoenix]

Keifomofutu, on 17 June 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

If you're happy with the average player thinking your game is an unbalanced mess then sure. But don't expect to keep the servers open with just the 1% of supercompetitive's being happy.

Do not see how getting a clearer picture on what is what, is bad. But to each his own. Which by the way is why PGI should not and cannot please everyone.

For me, it is their desire to do so that is causing this slow patchwork style balancing act. From the way I see it, it will lose the more people at the end. But then again, that is my opinion.

In my experience it is always better to balance for the ideal situation and then tweak specific instances that might be not always be optimal. Instead of balancing for the lower, and then trying to tweak to the optimal situation.

Edited by Gaden Phoenix, 17 June 2013 - 09:43 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

Keifomofutu, on 17 June 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

The idea falls apart when weapons like lrms that are easy to use, but have a low skill ceiling are mentioned. Even during the periods of lrm 2-shot salvos the good teams never had issue with them because they were easy to avoid. But when used pugging the LRMs just obliterated the random pug teams. Weapons like that cause a huge imbalance in effectiveness when you compare them in pugs and 8-mans.

Streaks could be considered in the same category. Good 8-mans can focus the streak cats down easily. Pugs get wiped out.

Streaks are not in the same category, they cannot be avoided. Streak cats, sure, they aren't a good build, but streak lights and streak mediums are premium brawlers. Paragon, one of the best teams playing right now, packs streaks into almost everything. Streak lights, streak centurions, etc in their 8 man drops, and beats every team that isn't top tier easily, and contends with other top tier teams every match.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 17 June 2013 - 10:16 PM.

[Stormyblade]

aniviron, on 15 June 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

Or you were using a laser weapon so that the damage got spread all across their mech, if you were lucky enough for them to even be in the air for a full second so you could get all the damage in, somehow. Or you were using LRMs that had travel time and could never hope to hit a poptart. Or had a brawling loadout, gods forbid.

I know your response is going to be "l2use ppc nub," which kind of illustrates the root cause of poptarting. I think the 'fix' that was applied was clunky and stopgap as best, but right now direct-fire weapons that do not spread their damage are just head and shoulders above everything else; poptarting was a problem because it enabled people who would otherwise not be good enough to utilize such weapons effectively to do so with minimal chance of retaliation. A better fix would have been to either make non-ppc/gauss weapons viable, or to bring their damage back in line with their tonnage and heat costs.

As things were, the only counters to poptarting were either: bring a direct fire weapon like pcc/gauss and hit them when they come up, or flank them without them or any of their teammates noticing and hope you have enough close range firepower to bring them down before three alphas core and kill you. So it's great that there were counters to poptarting- I used both, and to everyone else who did, congratulation. The problem is, both tactics required you to be much better than your opponent, which means that in mid-level play, the poptart should almost always win. Situation 1 (you brought your own ppc/gauss) requires that you let your opponent dictate the terms of the engagement, because you have to wait until he leaves cover. That means that you cannot afford to get into other fights while he might have a sightline on you, and that he is only going to fire when he has the heat cap and relative cover from fire to do so. He also has time to prepare his shot, given that he knows he is about to fire on you. You, on the other hand, have to return fire when he wants to you- so you might already be in a fight, or closeclose to your heat cap. It also means you have to be watching the ridge where the poptart is hiding, because looking away means you might miss a shot, while the poptart gets to maneuver at will. Situation 2, where you flank and kill the poptart requires that you have better tactical knowledge of the battlefield than your opponent, and that either his teammates are dead or he is out of position. If you surprise him, then great- good job winner. Unless your opponent was clever enough to poptart from the middle of his team's campground, or in a spot that is very difficult to approach from the sides or back. Again, if your opponent is as good as you are, he has an advantage, simply because combining a precise high damage alpha with jumpjets is very easy and very effective. It is good that there is at least a stopgap measure in place to stop popping right now, as seismic almost completely invalidates flanking at this time.

These are excellent points. I find it rather humorous that so many on this forum are (mostly) self-proclaimed 'mech experts who never make mistakes on the battlefield, but the truth is that when poptarting was dominant, there was always more than one poptarter, on *both* teams. That meant that unless you got lucky and found a path that wasn't already covered, you'd inevitably walk into the path of another poptarter and get cored before you reached any of your intended targets.

[Stoicblitzer]

PEEFsmash, on 17 June 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

Streaks are not in the same category, they cannot be avoided. Streak cats, sure, they aren't a good build, but streak lights and streak mediums are premium brawlers. Paragon, one of the best teams playing right now, packs streaks into almost everything. Streak lights, streak centurions, etc in their 8 man drops, and beats every team that isn't top tier easily, and contends with other top tier teams every match.

Streaks are decent for brawling but as we found out tonight they aren't good enough at the very top level. SJR had much higher dmg totals in their 9-As with srm6s than we did in ours with SSRMs. Streaks take too long to put things down. SRM6s aren't a whole lot better but they still apparently are. Also, SJR had a 4P in those matches which I thought was a very interesting (and telling) choice.

[PEEFsmash]

Stoicblitzer, on 17 June 2013 - 11:26 PM, said:

Streaks are decent for brawling but as we found out tonight they aren't good enough at the very top level. SJR had much higher dmg totals in their 9-As with srm6s than we did in ours with SSRMs. Streaks take too long to put things down. SRM6s aren't a whole lot better but they still apparently are. Also, SJR had a 4P in those matches which I thought was a very interesting (and telling) choice.

I think the 4P was really important and helpful. Having lots of streaks made it tough to target down the shoulder box. I'm not sure that streaks can replace SRMs in all cases, but they can right now for lights for sure. I think streaks are too strong right now, but they will be nerfed tomorrow hopefully. That will open the game up to more SRM/laser usage, which are both better weapons for competitive play I believe. As in, the best weapons used by the best teams should be ones where the pilot does the aiming.

[Stoicblitzer]

PEEFsmash, on 17 June 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

I think the 4P was really important and helpful. Having lots of streaks made it tough to target down the shoulder box. As in, the best weapons used by the best teams should be ones where the pilot does the aiming.

totally agree.

[p00k]

streaks still murder lights, especially jenners since they have that god awful front CT hitbox that you can be shot at from directly behind and still take front CT damage. that and sjr knew we were coming with ssrms and loaded up on ams for the 2033 drop. sad thing is, right now, besides streaks for lights, energy dominates for every other engagement, be it legging mediums or sniping heavies/assaults.

[PEEFsmash]

p00k, on 17 June 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

streaks still murder lights, especially jenners since they have that god awful front CT hitbox that you can be shot at from directly behind and still take front CT damage. that and sjr knew we were coming with ssrms and loaded up on ams for the 2033 drop. sad thing is, right now, besides streaks for lights, energy dominates for every other engagement, be it legging mediums or sniping heavies/assaults.

Hopefully SRM buff will be good!

[Stoicblitzer]

PEEFsmash, on 17 June 2013 - 11:42 PM, said:

Hopefully SRM buff will be good!

hopefully it will be today....oh and i like that new word you came up with: "p00king"

<3 pook

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 17 June 2013 - 11:45 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

Stoicblitzer, on 17 June 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

hopefully it will be today....oh and i like that new word you came up with: "p00king"

<3 pook

It has happened to all of us, just not on that sort of stage with that good of a camera angle LOL

Oh man I busted out laughing. Just lookin around nothin goin on...*SPLAT* ....crumple. hahahaaaa

The moment for people who didn't see: http://www.twitch.tv...die/b/418419261 0:50:00

Edited by PEEFsmash, 18 June 2013 - 12:03 AM.

[Stoicblitzer]

PEEFsmash, on 17 June 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

It has happened to all of us, just not on that sort of stage with that good of a camera angle LOL

Oh man I busted out laughing. Just lookin around nothin goin on...*SPLAT* ....crumple. hahahaaaa

The moment for people who didn't see: http://www.twitch.tv...die/b/418419261 0:50:00

didn't see the incident during the match but i did watch the replay and it was pretty funny. no laughing matter for us though.

anyways enough name & shame! gd and kriestov are great commentators.