174 replies to this topic

[Xmith]

You can have the appearance of weapon balance but because of the skill level of players, the game itself can never have balanced play.

Weapons are not OP, the skill level of players makes the game appear unbalanced. Take the jump snipers for example. People shouted and cried that they were making the game unbalanced. It seems most hated jump snipers. People were full aware that there are snipers in the game. Knowing this fact, they still chose not to use cover. What were the snipers suppose do? Tell them to get back under cover before they shoot them? All this has been discussed and the snipers were basically saying what not to do if you don't what to be sniped.

That was just one example. Some recent nerfs seem to be geared toward the less skilled. In itself it seems to make sense. The devs trys to help out people so that they can have fun and enjoy the game. It's a losing cause because competitive player skill level will never happen. Especially if PGI is working toward a high player count.

[Zordicron]

This thread is bunk.

Know what throws off game balance? When hit detection is totally screwed like it is right now. You can be the General E.Litemofo or Private first class T.Ryhard and if you shoot, and your weapons do 0-100+ percent dmg, at any given time for any shot, there is no point in changing weapon stats, trying to alter the game dynamics, persuade players into certain loadouts, whatever.

By the way, I am sure you are a better player then me. I am a terriBAD. I bow to your enormous skill level.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Xmith, on 14 June 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

You can have the appearance of weapon balance but because of the skill level of players, the game itself can never have balanced play.

Weapons are not OP, the skill level of players makes the game appear unbalanced. Take the jump snipers for example. People shouted and cried that they were making the game unbalanced. It seems most hated jump snipers. People were full aware that there are snipers in the game. Knowing this fact, they still chose not to use cover. What were the snipers suppose do? Tell them to get back under cover before they shoot them? All this has been discussed and the snipers were basically saying what not to do if you don't what to be sniped.

That was just one example. Some recent nerfs seem to be geared toward the less skilled. In itself it seems to make sense. The devs trys to help out people so that they can have fun and enjoy the game. It's a losing cause because competitive player skill level will never happen. Especially if PGI is working toward a high player count.

I actually agree. They are fixing alot of stuff that is not broke to make some portion of the whining playerbase happy.

Poptarting is a prime example. It is a viable tactic that is easy to counter. I mean it is much easier to hit a jumping mech from a stationary position than to actually hit something from a jumping mech yet people whined and cryed that about it so much PGI made it virtually impossible to tactically use jump jets for anything aside from situationally navigating terrain a bit easier. Ridiculous.

Also for the record I didn't poptart mostly because I alway found myself taking more damage than I put out when I tried to employ that tactic. I would poptart up....get hit by 2-4 enemy mechs while I was in the air while only managing to hit maybe one enemy back. Definately found it offered diminishing returns in 90% of the cases yet the tactic was nerfed...go figure.

Also it completely screwed light, jump capable mechs that utilized jump firing tactics to disorient much heavy and larger firepower mechs. Basically the shake just dumbed down the skill required to play, not to mention the overall tactical metagame.

[DerSpecht]

Xmith, on 14 June 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

You can have the appearance of weapon balance but because of the skill level of players, the game itself can never have balanced play.

Weapons are not OP, the skill level of players makes the game appear unbalanced. Take the jump snipers for example. People shouted and cried that they were making the game unbalanced. It seems most hated jump snipers. People were full aware that there are snipers in the game. Knowing this fact, they still chose not to use cover. What were the snipers suppose do? Tell them to get back under cover before they shoot them? All this has been discussed and the snipers were basically saying what not to do if you don't what to be sniped.

That was just one example. Some recent nerfs seem to be geared toward the less skilled. In itself it seems to make sense. The devs trys to help out people so that they can have fun and enjoy the game. It's a losing cause because competitive player skill level will never happen. Especially if PGI is working toward a high player count.

I dont understand what you mean by skill. In my world bringing a beat up hunch against 2x 6LL stalkers in a brawl, coring them, and winning the game is skill. Hopping around and shooting is not.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

BIG FAT plus one to the OP, l2p before you go and whine on forums

[Victor Morson]

Balancing anything from forum complaints is a bad idea. I don't mind the jumping nerf to be honest, but I've long held that they just need to buff the infighting weapons - Pulse, Ballistic, SRM - and it would have resolved itself. Other changes, however, concern me... like when they jumped on LRMs due to people not getting how they worked, or this completely backwards mind boggling "anti-alphastrike" system PGI is working on, crippling 'mechs that aren't even that good.

I've said it before but I'll say it again, they need to open a dialogue with the best teams in the game right now and take their input as the most valuable. They understand the game. Yes, you might be worried about offending the PUGs PGI, but they want a balanced game too, even if they have horrible ideas of how to balance it. I'm sure they'd be happy if great players help steer your future decisions in the long run.

Edited by Victor Morson, 14 June 2013 - 10:14 PM.

[Deathlike]

The sad fact is that the JJ-nerf initially affected me... but later on, I had an epiphany and it's literally a non-factor.

[PEEFsmash]

Here's Nevarfar again, here to tell us that nobody is any good at this game, and that even the top players are no better than anyone else.
Good post OP. This community in general is quite low-skilled and, like Neverfar, PROUD OF IT. Proud to be bad might as well be the subtitle of this community. Top competitive players are just cheap, boating, tryhard elitists wanting to swang their e-peen, right? Wake up. This community is never going to get over its ebbs and flows of balance cries unless it mans up and starts actually improving its own level of skill. Learn to aim, learn to position yourselves. If you aren't willing to improve your own play, your balance advice based on personal in-game experience is worthless. Low player skill is ruining balance discussion. #MakeEloPublic (Or give us leagues/leaderboards...)

Edited by PEEFsmash, 14 June 2013 - 11:11 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

As Neverfar has already pointed out, the OP has it 100% backwards. The skill level isn't the source of imbalance, the skill level is actually what gives the illusion of balance. It's similar to how, in Counter Strike, some players were so deadly with the AWP sniper rifle that they started using the Scout sniper rifle to intentionally nerf themselves, to make the game more challenging and fun. (For those of you who never played, both rifles had to reload after each shot, but the Scout sniper rifle would only cause instant death if you got a headshot)

Similarly, there's a lot of very talented players in this game who are intentionally nerfing themselves, playing Hunchbacks with triple AC2s or some other crazy build, because they don't find it challenging to stomp new players with their AC40 Jager or PPC Stalker.

A lot of problems in this game are never fixed, but they become less visible over time, as people get bored with abusing them. If there was money involved in this game, as in Starcraft, any illusion of balance would be stripped away rather quickly.

[FunkyFritter]

I haven't paid much attention lately, but weren't 3D poptarts the dominant mech in league play before the JJ change? I don't know where the devs get their data on balance, but based on the number of complaints that don't lead to changes it certainly isn't here.

Edited by FunkyFritter, 14 June 2013 - 11:17 PM.

[Xmith]

Tip: The best way to bring down a hopping/ jumping mech is to shoot their legs. There are some players that know this, but most don't. I was always impressed with the pilot that shot my legs off when in my 733c. I would say "bravo, you know what you are doing".

[PEEFsmash]

Xmith, on 14 June 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

Tip: The best way to bring down a hopping/ jumping mech is to shoot their legs. There are some players that know this, but most don't. I was always impressed with the pilot that shot my legs off when in my 733c. I would say "bravo, you know what you are doing".

They probably missed your CT, because shooting the legs is not the best idea unless they are stripping significant leg armor. You can still jump just as well with 1 leg. Poptarts are the last things you should leg in this game because the big advantage to legging is lowering twist speed, but JJ mechs can still turn super fast midair.

[Volthorne]

Xmith, on 14 June 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

Tip: The best way to bring down a hopping/ jumping mech is to shoot their legs. There are some players that know this, but most don't. I was always impressed with the pilot that shot my legs off when in my 733c. I would say "bravo, you know what you are doing".

A "good" poptart shouldn't be exposing their legs in the first place. Less time in the air, less time for the enemy to shoot you, smaller target presented.

Edited by Volthorne, 14 June 2013 - 11:42 PM.

[Jaguar Prime]

Alistair Winter, on 14 June 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

Similarly, there's a lot of very talented players in this game who are intentionally nerfing themselves, playing Hunchbacks with triple AC2s or some other crazy build, because they don't find it challenging to stomp new players with their AC40 Jager or PPC Stalker.

What????? Seriously.......If they were that talented, they would not be matched up against new players. They really need to show players there Elo so these folks who are intentionally "nerfing themselves" know there is a higher level of competition to aspire too. So they don't have to nerf themselves anymore.....
I'm just saying........

[Pater Mors]

Jaguar Prime, on 14 June 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

What????? Seriously.......If they were that talented, they would not be matched up against new players. They really need to show players there Elo so these folks who are intentionally "nerfing themselves" know there is a higher level of competition to aspire too. So they don't have to nerf themselves anymore.....
I'm just saying........

You'll still get matched against newbies unless you are at the very top ELO tier. It's unavoidable because the matchmaker uses an average ELO of all players in the match, rather than directly matching ELO ratings. So what happens there is if one team's ELO is too high, they will get a 'newbie' thrown in to drop the average.

This is the precise reason that I don't run FOTM builds. Yeah they're super effective and all that crap... they're also super boring. Give me a versatile Highlander with no JJ's over a Poptart every day of the week.

[Volthorne]

Jaguar Prime, on 14 June 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

What????? Seriously.......If they were that talented, they would not be matched up against new players. They really need to show players there Elo so these folks who are intentionally "nerfing themselves" know there is a higher level of competition to aspire too. So they don't have to nerf themselves anymore.....
I'm just saying........

Please don't mention showing players their Elo. Just leave that mess in K-Town where it belongs. Please?

[Keifomofutu]

Yup clearly poptart assaults were just so damn skillful that they broke the game with their skilled use of skillful weapons. ***** please.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

Keifomofutu, on 15 June 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

Yup clearly poptart assaults were just so damn skillful that they broke the game with their skilled use of skillful weapons. ***** please.

poptarting never was strong play style to begin with if u had problems with it i dont know what to say....
l2p yea?

[Volthorne]

BigMekkUrDakka, on 15 June 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

poptarting never was strong play style to begin with if u had problems with it i dont know what to say....
l2p yea?

If you didn't have problems with it you ran a candy-*** Light and base-capped (or you were also poptarting and always missed being up when they were). Not to say I didn't do it myself a few times when I got fed up with being pinned down in my lurm-support C1. That's just how the situation was.

Edited by Volthorne, 15 June 2013 - 12:13 AM.

[Jaguar Prime]

PEEFsmash, on 14 June 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

They probably missed your CT, because shooting the legs is not the best idea unless they are stripping significant leg armor. You can still jump just as well with 1 leg. Poptarts are the last things you should leg in this game because the big advantage to legging is lowering twist speed, but JJ mechs can still turn super fast midair.

I disagree with your reasoning. In a competitive environment, stripping a poptart of his mobility is a very good idea for numerous reasons.