33 replies to this topic

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

I have been noticing a lot lately that if you are behind cover AND out of line of sight and powered off. Somehow you are still able to be bombarded by LRM's over and over tell dead.

Something is off!

p.s.
the matchmaker is HORRIBLE!


p.s.s
REALLY HORRIBLE!

Edited by Funkadelic Mayhem, 16 June 2013 - 10:35 PM.

[MasterErrant]

try moving before you powr down. it you ust power down the missiles are still going to hit you. just because they can't "see" you anmore doesn't mean they can't hit you.

[Pater Mors]

They hit the last location where they had a lock. If you move behind cover, stop and are still locked when you power down they will still hit you (unless the cover is good enough).

[Victor Morson]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 16 June 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

I have been noticing a lot lately that if you are behind cover AND out of line of sight and powered off. Somehow you are still able to be bombarded by LRM's over and over tell dead.

They maintain lock for a bit, in particular if they have had you TAG'ed or have a Target Decay. You can't shake the lock for several seconds, powered off or no.

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 16 June 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

Something is off!

p.s.
the matchmaker is HONORABLE!


p.s.s
REALLY HONORABLE!

[Screech]

Also shutting down turns off your AMS so you get hit harder.

[Nauht]

Pag attention to the missiles incoming warning, move and power off in between that. No point powering off if you see that as missiles will still hit the location of the last lock.

[LauLiao]

If you're powering down after missles have been locked and launched, you're basically just making yourself an easier target. They recently changed the arc of LRMs, and it's harder than ever to find real cover. The arc is so high now that unless you're behind something really substantial, most of the missles will still hit you. And if you powered down when missles where in flight, they will continue to go to your last tracked location... which is right where you powered down... which is right where you still are because you're powered down...

[Zerberus]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 16 June 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

I have been noticing a lot lately that if you are behind cover AND out of line of sight and powered off. Somehow you are still able to be bombarded by LRM's over and over tell dead.

Something is off!

Basic LRM avoidance through movement, Beginner`s Course:

Move to break lock

CONTINUE MOVING, assuming constantly that you have not broken the lock, LOS to launcher or not.
_______________________

1. If you break lock and stand still /shut down, the missiles are still targeted at exactly where you were when you broke lock, and you will eat them all
2. With the proliferation of BAP, shutting down is essentially a waste of time. Specifically if there`s a BAP equipped spotter in your area, and the chances are very good good there is. A bap spotter rigth behind you (and this is easier to accomplaish thatn most assume, even w /seismic everywhere) will keep his Tag on, or even just his targeting, and your completely defenseless mech will eat salvo after salvo until your face melts off.
3. Target decay will make it nearly impoossible to break lock before they get to you.

Edited by Zerberus, 16 June 2013 - 04:06 PM.

[Lazy Eye]

... or to quote Dead-Eye Flint:

In combat, speed is life; you go slow, you die.

[Jonnara]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 16 June 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

I have been noticing a lot lately that if you are behind cover AND out of line of sight and powered off. Somehow you are still able to be bombarded by LRM's over and over tell dead.

Ok this is a classic misunderstanding how of LRMs work as per the posts above me have stated.

The missile flight arc is also different with line of sight fire compare to indirect fire.

If the missiles was fired at you from line of sight before you ran into cover to break lock than you need to factor into account the higher arc.

The best course of action in these cases is to keep moving when going into cover so your location is different to that of the last missile lock location.

Powering down in game is not a good tactic atm for anything other than to hide if your team has been wiped out.

[Nauht]

Jonnara, on 16 June 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

Ok this is a classic misunderstanding how of LRMs work as per the posts above me have stated.

The missile flight arc is also different with line of sight fire compare to indirect fire.

If the missiles was fired at you from line of sight before you ran into cover to break lock than you need to factor into account the higher arc.

The best course of action in these cases is to keep moving when going into cover so your location is different to that of the last missile lock location.

Powering down in game is not a good tactic atm for anything other than to hide if your team has been wiped out.

That's actually incorrect - powering down is a pretty good way to break lock to get the LRM boat off you and onto someone else. You can't TAG a powered down mech so you take the first volley, power down let the LRM guy target someone else and come back on. I've done it heaps and have had it done to me when i play my LRM boat too.

[Deathlike]

Powering down is far less effective due to the arc. Even if you were moving slowly behind cover, you would be more likely able to avoid/reduce the missile impact.

[Ranek Blackstone]

Powering down works best with the quick ignition skill. Move behind some cover, power down, power back up ASAP and move as quick as you can.

[Jonnara]

Nauht, on 16 June 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

That's actually incorrect - powering down is a pretty good way to break lock to get the LRM boat off you and onto someone else. You can't TAG a powered down mech so you take the first volley, power down let the LRM guy target someone else and come back on. I've done it heaps and have had it done to me when i play my LRM boat too.

I found 2 things wrong in this statement.

1- if your not in cover than powering down is next to useless as you will still get snipped off and even dumb firing LRMs with zoom will still hit you.
Edit - only beginner players with LRM will target someone else in this case. Experienced Artemis LRM players who go for line of sight locks will not look for other targets if you power down out of cover.

2- If you are in cover than you have already broken lock and if don't keep moving than you will still get hit by LRM fire by mechs carrying a lock decay delay mod.

2nd edit - Powering down to break lock from indirect fire will work if the spotter is at distance, however i still do not recommend this tactic as the spotter, often times a light fast mech will have free reign to harass you.

Much better to run into cover from the spotter. Or even better yeah if you have good cover from the LRM boat and the missiles are not hitting you.
The best thing you can do for your team is to wast his ammo and stay in lock with the spotter.

Edited by Jonnara, 16 June 2013 - 05:45 PM.

[Skyfaller]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 16 June 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

I have been noticing a lot lately that if you are behind cover AND out of line of sight and powered off. Somehow you are still able to be bombarded by LRM's over and over tell dead.

Something is off!

To begin with, if you are behind 'cover' and still get hit by LRMs then you are not behind cover.

Out of sight and powered off and they still hit you means you're being locked by an enemy with BAP or the missiles were fired at you before you powered down.

...which, if you were ignorant of the fact, means the missiles track the last known location of their target. If you power down youre just SITTING at the last location the missiles saw you in.

[Nauht]

Jonnara, on 16 June 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

I found 2 things wrong in this statement.

1- if your not in cover than powering down is next to useless as you will still get snipped off and even dumb firing LRMs with zoom will still hit you.
Edit - only beginner players with LRM will target someone else in this case. Experienced Artemis LRM players who go for line of sight locks will not look for other targets if you power down out of cover.

2- If you are in cover than you have already broken lock and if don't keep moving than you will still get hit by LRM fire by mechs carrying a lock decay delay mod.

2nd edit - Powering down to break lock from indirect fire will work if the spotter is at distance, however i still do not recommend this tactic as the spotter, often times a light fast mech will have free reign to harass you.

Much better to run into cover from the spotter. Or even better yeah if you have good cover from the LRM boat and the missiles are not hitting you.
The best thing you can do for your team is to wast his ammo and stay in lock with the spotter.

Eh say what? Of course you're not going to shutdown in los, you shut down behind cover, even if you take the salvo hit, and let the lrm guy move to another target . That's the only thing its good for. If you were being spotted and the light starts firing its a call on whther you want to take the hits from a light or stillbe locked on for LRM rain. Plus you ever try to dumbfire a salvo at someone that's behind cover? Where are you targetting? That rock they're behind - cos your LRM's will hit that rock and not fly over it. How can you target an area that's not in los? You using the minimap to fire all salvos blind?

Obviously there's nothing to stop the light from re-spotting you once you power on again but usually by that time the lrm boat and spotter have moved onto another target. There should be 7 other mechs for him to choose from... unless he's got a hard on for you or something.

But by all means, if you feel that powering down doesnt do anything for you then don't power down. I shutdown heaps and 100% every time the lrm boat's moved onto raining some other poor sod on my team. Likewise when I play my LRM boat i sure as hell don't say "well crap, he's powered down, I'll just wait until he powers up behind that rock and ignore the other red boxes until then".

[Jonnara]

Nauht, on 16 June 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Eh say what? Of course you're not going to shutdown in los, you shut down behind cover, even if you take the salvo hit, and let the lrm guy move to another target . That's the only thing its good for. If you were being spotted and the light starts firing its a call on whther you want to take the hits from a light or stillbe locked on for LRM rain. Plus you ever try to dumbfire a salvo at someone that's behind cover? Where are you targetting? That rock they're behind - cos your LRM's will hit that rock and not fly over it. How can you target an area that's not in los? You using the minimap to fire all salvos blind?

Obviously there's nothing to stop the light from re-spotting you once you power on again but usually by that time the lrm boat and spotter have moved onto another target. There should be 7 other mechs for him to choose from... unless he's got a hard on for you or something.

But by all means, if you feel that powering down doesnt do anything for you then don't power down. I shutdown heaps and 100% every time the lrm boat's moved onto raining some other poor sod on my team. Likewise when I play my LRM boat i sure as hell don't say "well crap, he's powered down, I'll just wait until he powers up behind that rock and ignore the other red boxes until then".

You are not reading my reply. I spoke of dumb fire as part of my point 1 in the above post - LOS(none cover).

In the next talking point I will try to convey the ineffectiveness of powering down in cover.


Point 2. In Cover Part 1 "No Spotter"
Powering down in this scenario is doing addition action that already have the same effect.

There is no need to power down as lock is broken already once you are in cover and for the case with lock decay mod mechs, you will still need to move as you can escape even that 1 salvo of LRMs. There is no advantage to power down and get hit by 1 salvo when you can escape Scot free


Point 2. In Cover Part 2 Spotter in light mech -
You have a choice to power down and get harassed.

Or keep moving to either break his lock or better yet, if he can see you than that = to you can see him.
So if you can find cover in relation to the LRM boat than your free to fire at the spotter and make the LRM boat waste ammo by hitting buildings or the side of a mountain.

In either case firing at a light spotter is tactically more advantages than powering down as light/fast spotters will than try to find cover them self and not try to sustain incoming fire.


Point 2. In Cover Part 3 heavier mechs spotting -

Powering down in this case is tantamount to suicide as most non-light mechs have some kind of snipping weapon.

Edited by Jonnara, 16 June 2013 - 06:58 PM.

[Nauht]

Jonnara, on 16 June 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

You are not reading my reply. I spoke of dumb fire as part of my point 1 in the above post - LOS(none cover).

In the next talking point I will try to convey the ineffectiveness of powering down in cover.


Point 2. In Cover Part 1 "No Spotter"
Powering down in this scenario is doing addition action that already have the same effect.

There is no need to power down as lock is broken already once you are in cover and for the case with lock decay mod mechs, you will still need to move as you can escape even that 1 salvo of LRMs. There is no advantage to power down and get hit by 1 salvo when you can escape Scot free


Point 2. In Cover Part 2 Spotter in light mech -
You have a choice to power down and get harassed.

Or keep moving to either break his lock or better yet, if he can see you than that = to you can see him.
So if you can find cover in relation to the LRM boat than your free to fire at the spotter and make the LRM boat waste ammo by hitting buildings or the side of a mountain.

In either case firing at a light spotter is tactically more advantages than powering down as light/fast spotters will than try to find cover them self and not try to sustain incoming fire.


Point 2. In Cover Part 3 heavier mechs spotting -

Powering down in this case is tantamount to suicide as most non-light mechs have some kind of snipping weapon.

Yes it is situational. I power down when there are clearly other mechs around me that can take out the light thats silly enough to tell my team mates exactly where he is. With the current Benny Hill mentality that most have the light is usually chased away.

If I'm solo i'll power down and take the hits from a light rather than take LRM45 salvo only if I know the LRM boat will switch targets. Suicide? The only sniping weapon a scout can fit is 1 ppc. I have seen 2 ppc ravens and some single ac20s but hardly suicide. Especially in a heavy. I've shutdown looking directly at a spotter and we're both looking at each other - once i know the LRM has started spewing at another mech i power up and start shooting the spotter, which usually runs.

If I'm solo, decide to shutdown to avoid LRM spam and that light decides to engage me, foolishly giving away his location, I simply power up and shoot back. Usually they run or die. In fact the only times they stick around, funny enough is when that LRM boat switches back to me. In which case the status quo before shutdown hasnt changed.

But like I said there hasn't been a situation where I haven't shut down and the LRM boat hasn't switched targets. But there ARE situations when shutdowns are beneficial. If you havent worked it out by now the. Thats one less tactic you know about. Try it next time when you're being LRM rained but again it depends on the map and situation.

[Bobdolemite]

Sometimes its not clear just how may missiles are currently soaring toward you. If I am 800 meters away from someone I can put about 220 missiles up before the first salvo hits. People can avoid this very easily by running behind cover (the taller the better) . If you just run behind cover and power down though many of these will still hit due to the fact that the missiles were fired while he still had a lock, especially with Artemis + TAG + Target Decay extra 2 seconds or less of usable lock.

If the enemy is close enough to dumb fire he can get you this way as well. The best way to avoid missiles is to get behind cover and KEEP MOVING. If your too slow however (48kph-53ish) then it can be very difficult to lose them.

Trust me the only way to change the ARC of missiles at current would be to buff the damage and or speed, which I dont think anyone really wants (seeing as there is a tendency to over or under do this in the past)

Missiles are still a tad under-powered but they are no longer useless. Effective as a support weapon or area of denial. Effective LRMS help to teach people about cover, team organization, and strong covered pushes (also provides actual roles for scouts with TAG as well)

These are sometimes hard lessons to swallow but your tactics have to evolve with the situation, and LRMS have many effective counters. Learn them and swear by them and youll be elbowing LRM boats in the face all day.

Powering down behind cover sounds okay as an idea but in practice is not very effective. I try to do everything I can to keep my mech moving and powered up. Any mech standing still or powered down is a juicy steak in the lions den (and will be eaten quickly and savagely)

Edited by Bobdolemite, 16 June 2013 - 09:54 PM.

[hammerreborn]

As many others in the thread have mentioned, LRMs follow the last locked on signal. So if you power down behind cover what you want to do is instantly repower and move like 20 ft. All the missiles should hit unless lock is regained. You have to be really quick though.