252 replies to this topic

[PringlesPCant]

Hello FullMetalBoxers!



If you have anything beyond ad hominem attacks please feel free to post them in here, it is after all a discussion thread. I would prefer that discussion be on the merits of the ideas presented though, and not on the evil things that goons have done to you over the years.

Also to Katr - I agree with some of your points, and in the TLDR area by winning I was referring to a hypothetical war between two different communities, not the end game as a whole. As for the point about static unassailable factions being boring I completely agree, you need to cut a balance between everything changing so quickly that strategy and planning is meaningless and everything so static that you can print out a picture of the current map and use it for the next six months.

Edited by Helmer, 08 June 2012 - 08:18 PM.
Per request by Poster.

[Galius]

The Mittani, on 08 June 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

If you disagree with this post, you are wrong.

And yes, Goons are in MWO just as in every other game that exists. In MWO, we will initially be Liao-aligned.

Not a huge fan of the metagame aspect of EvE... hence the reason I don't play it anymore. I agree with all the other points but metagaming to the degree they allow in EvE is just not cool IMHO. By all means kudos to you and yours for what you have done and still do but I do hope they are more heavy handed with bans/temp bans for doing things like using "spys" and forced disbanding of a group...

I like PvP with a point to it but I also like reasonable limits placed so we don't get mega groups running the game purely by the fact they have more numbers. Surely you can see the reason why an average (at best) player like myself would feel uncomfortable being thrown to the wolves time and again simply because they have a large enough pack to swallow me whole?

[PANZERBUNNY]

PringlesPCant, on 08 June 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Hello FullMetalBoxers!




If you have anything beyond ad hominem attacks please feel free to post them in here, it is after all a discussion thread. I would prefer that discussion be on the merits of the ideas presented though, and not on the evil things that goons have done to you over the years.

Also to Katr - I agree with some of your points, and in the TLDR area by winning I was referring to a hypothetical war between two different communities, not the end game as a whole. As for the point about static unassailable factions being boring I completely agree, you need to cut a balance between everything changing so quickly that strategy and planning is meaningless and everything so static that you can print out a picture of the current map and use it for the next six months.

It would be cool if they mixed up planetary capture with some moon or inhospitable maps. Before you can start invading and playing on the main planet in that system, you have to work your way through a few moons.

I remember an old game at a convention played on the Hulk of a giant war ship. Mechs marching across it's hull, capturing vital points, fending off Aero attacks and other landing mechs attempting to thwart the defenders.

Not every map needs to be in a forest, canyon or desert.

There is some room to work with without making things overly complicated. Something that wouldn't drag out the campaign against the system all that much, avoiding quick captures.

I think everyone can agree they don't want quick captures.

Edited by Helmer, 08 June 2012 - 08:19 PM.
As requested by the original poster.

[Supremacist]

Galius, on 08 June 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Not a huge fan of the metagame aspect of EvE... hence the reason I don't play it anymore. I agree with all the other points but metagaming to the degree they allow in EvE is just not cool IMHO. By all means kudos to you and yours for what you have done and still do but I do hope they are more heavy handed with bans/temp bans for doing things like using "spys" and forced disbanding of a group...

I like PvP with a point to it but I also like reasonable limits placed so we don't get mega groups running the game purely by the fact they have more numbers. Surely you can see the reason why an average (at best) player like myself would feel uncomfortable being thrown to the wolves time and again simply because they have a large enough pack to swallow me whole?

1. Meta game helps everyone, some people cant play, but are good at strategy. Mittani for example = )

2. If the devs put in place rules against "spying/force disbanding" etc; we will abide by it = )

3. Only 12 of us can be in a drop, the other hundred or so on can only provide encouragement. = )

[ScientificMethod]

No offense but I expect more out of this game than a quick nerdgasm of exploding mech parts. I want to see tactics on the field of battle and I want to see tactics off the field as well. To do any less is simply not reaching this game's full potential and I will be far less interested after two or three months (it happened with Tribes: Ascend, sure there is a meta community but it's barely existant). I agree that there should be some easy way for quick battles to happen, not everyone has anxiously waited ten years for this game or has the time to spend hours a night playing. If the dev's want to go the TF2 route of selling hats... I guess I'd probably buy one just for the comedy but TF2 kill kill kill got boring soon after they switched to the FTP format.

As for taking and holding planets I'd like to see some way of having group members housed on the planets held and an overall defense value for the planet. Each time assailants win a battle the defense value decreases, each time the defending group wins the defense value stays the same or increases. Having to wait for repairs (or pay c-bills to speed things up) would make quite a bit of sense in this format. And there could be (a quite expensive) option for the merc company to spend c-bills to fund infrastructure repairs, artifically repairing their defense value. This would be hard to break as long as the expense is worse than the bonus from holding the planet.



TLDR
I guess what I'm asking for is a TF2esk quickplay for simple games. Only the match matters, there's no worry about repairing mechs and etc other than an upkeep per match that depends on the amount of damage received (never more than what was earned though, I don't like the idea of bankrupting individuals)

Then the other format I'd like to see would be a more roleplaying centered, repairs take time, dynamic world maps for planetary conquest, world infrastructure that can be invested in to repair damage from attacks (but expensive enough that the defenders have to decide if the planet is even worth it).

[PANZERBUNNY]

Supremacist, on 08 June 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

1. Meta game helps everyone, some people cant play, but are good at strategy. Mittani for example = )

2. If the devs put in place rules against "spying/force disbanding" etc; we will abide by it = )

3. Only 12 of us can be in a drop, the other hundred or so on can only provide encouragement. = )

How about not spying because it's lame? Do you guys have to be told NOT to do something before you come to the conclusion that it isn't ethical?

Spying gets a free pass in EVE because everything gets a free pass in EVE.

Shoot mechs. Play your side. Have fun.

[TheWorstRobot]

Supremacist, on 08 June 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

Nice planet you have there, shame if it werent yours anymore. Post less

Didn't want that planet anyway.

The OP has done a brilliant job of putting together fantastic points. I cannot support them enough.

[The Mittani]

PANZERBUNNY, on 08 June 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

How about not spying because it's lame? Do you guys have to be told NOT to do something before you come to the conclusion that it isn't ethical?

Spying gets a free pass in EVE because everything gets a free pass in EVE.

Shoot mechs. Play your side. Have fun.

Espionage is grand. The United States engages in espionage daily; we pride ourselves of the effectiveness of our IC and have multiple three-letter agencies dedicated to it. It's important, necessary work.

It's a shame to see someone trivialize the importance of an aspect of warfare that was acknowledged as critical even by Sun Tzu~

[Xantars]

Ive run across Goon's In eve and I dont want to be running across them here. I love the post it has some very good merits. But any Stiner unit that forms up is part of House Stiner couminty as is with Davion and the snakes. its only the Mercs that will be indepent as far as i can tell. Its the great houses and the best high ranking players that will help shaping their factions. I plan to be one of thouse players not right off the bat give it a year or so and ill get up their were my name is know in house Stiner as someone of power and skill.

[PANZERBUNNY]

ScientificMethod, on 08 June 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

No offense but I expect more out of this game than a quick nerdgasm of exploding mech parts. I want to see tactics on the field of battle and I want to see tactics off the field as well. To do any less is simply not reaching this game's full potential and I will be far less interested after two or three months (it happened with Tribes: Ascend, sure there is a meta community but it's barely existant). I agree that there should be some easy way for quick battles to happen, not everyone has anxiously waited ten years for this game or has the time to spend hours a night playing. If the dev's want to go the TF2 route of selling hats... I guess I'd probably buy one just for the comedy but TF2 kill kill kill got boring soon after they switched to the FTP format.

As for taking and holding planets I'd like to see some way of having group members housed on the planets held and an overall defense value for the planet. Each time assailants win a battle the defense value decreases, each time the defending group wins the defense value stays the same or increases. Having to wait for repairs (or pay c-bills to speed things up) would make quite a bit of sense in this format. And there could be (a quite expensive) option for the merc company to spend c-bills to fund infrastructure repairs, artifically repairing their defense value. This would be hard to break as long as the expense is worse than the bonus from holding the planet.



TLDR
I guess what I'm asking for is a TF2esk quickplay for simple games. Only the match matters, there's no worry about repairing mechs and etc other than an upkeep per match that depends on the amount of damage received (never more than what was earned though, I don't like the idea of bankrupting individuals)

Then the other format I'd like to see would be a more roleplaying centered, repairs take time, dynamic world maps for planetary conquest, world infrastructure that can be invested in to repair damage from attacks (but expensive enough that the defenders have to decide if the planet is even worth it).

Obviously you will be let down off the field in regards to tactics.

The simple, winner raises planetary cap, if defender wins they lower attackers cap or raises their defense is perhaps the laziest way they could impelment planet capture.

If that HAS to be what we're running with for launch. that's cool. If it's just a cloned version of MechAsault 2's online feature.....;( sad panda.

hopefully the future is bright and ever evolving.

[Galius]

Supremacist, on 08 June 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

1. Meta game helps everyone, some people cant play, but are good at strategy. Mittani for example = )

2. If the devs put in place rules against "spying/force disbanding" etc; we will abide by it = )

3. Only 12 of us can be in a drop, the other hundred or so on can only provide encouragement. = )

1)Not sure how metagaming really "improves" a game... except for those that excell at things not related to the game. It's like being able to bribe an umpire, or using google to answer questions in Triva Pursuit... it just feels like cheating to me.. and that of course is my opinion.

2)I can only hope you speak the truth on that matter, and hope they do in fact limit the level of metagaming to something reasonable.

3)Granted, like I said this is more about the metagaming aspect. Things like I see in EvE with the forum attacks, media blitzs, and an attitude that those that do not totally agree with the direction Goons want to go need to be insulted and driven off. I just hope I can enjoy this game without having to deal with those concerns... that's all.

[SuomiWarder]

For the semi organized House factions (as they are essentially server controlled it appears), perhaps the metagame "win" they can aim for is gaining enough of some type of points towards being elected the First Lord of the Star League. (Yeah, we are a number of years away from the Star League reborn. But some type of most influence in the known galaxy is your house type thing.).

For we Mercs, in MW leagues past the defining factor was always our Mech force. Owning a planet was just a means to upgrading our Mech inventory. And sometimes a means to further attacks for leagues with movement restrictions. I have yet to see anything official about if mercs will use their personal rides, or merc company mechs, or some combo. But if Merc companies are trying to be low bid for a contract, then presumably the unit must have something to use C-Bills for. Or else why would be bother to collect them.

Maybe the most successful merc units are named the the Mercenary Review Board. It doesn't matter if the board really exists ... it is just a recognition thing. Kinda like having your icon plastered over various parts of a map.

[Teralitha]

I think the devs already got it covered..... sorry you wrote all that...

[PANZERBUNNY]

The Mittani, on 08 June 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

Espionage is grand. The United States engages in espionage daily; we pride ourselves of the effectiveness of our IC and have multiple three-letter agencies dedicated to it. It's important, necessary work.

It's a shame to see someone trivialize the importance of an aspect of warfare that was acknowledged as critical even by Sun Tzu~

That's EVE and trying to rationalize the actions of the U.S as some kind of acceptable level to measure ones self in gaming or life is laughable.

I'm sorry if normal people find those who infiltrate, pretending to befriend people only to attempt in draining communal gear, as mongrels and parasites.

EVE tolerates that behaviour because it's a sandbox.

I'm glad that I feel most of this games population just want to have a good time and experience a game they have been waiting years for.

Goons and KOS lists are like peanut butter and jelly.

[Lilli]

Xantars, on 08 June 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

Ive run across Goon's In eve and I dont want to be running across them here. I love the post it has some very good merits. But any Stiner unit that forms up is part of House Stiner couminty as is with Davion and the snakes. its only the Mercs that will be indepent as far as i can tell. Its the great houses and the best high ranking players that will help shaping their factions. I plan to be one of thouse players not right off the bat give it a year or so and ill get up their were my name is know in house Stiner as someone of power and skill.

Not to be a grammar nazi, but it's house Steiner. If you really want to climb the ranks of an organization they're going to expect you to be able to spell it correctly.

[Peacelock]

Excellent post, OP. I have no outstanding disagreements with it and it appears you have managed to codify much of what vague hopes I had for this game. I am also glad that it appears that at least some Devs seem to agree with the idea.

I am looking forward to the finished product, and if the gameplay is at least as fun as WoT's, I am going to be playing this for a good long while.

[Supremacist]

PANZERBUNNY, on 08 June 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

Goons and KOS lists are like peanut butter and jelly.

In that they are delicious? Hmmm
I like you guy

[ErrorlessErik]

PANZERBUNNY, on 08 June 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

That's EVE and trying to rationalize the actions of the U.S as some kind of acceptable level to measure ones self in gaming or life is laughable.

I'm sorry if normal people find those who infiltrate, pretending to befriend people only to attempt in draining communal gear, as mongrels and parasites.

EVE tolerates that behaviour because it's a sandbox.

I'm glad that I feel most of this games population just want to have a good time and experience a game they have been waiting years for.

Goons and KOS lists are like peanut butter and jelly.

Life is a sandbox deal with it

[Lipot]

Ok, has everyone forgotten about what universe this is set in? Spying is an integral part of the Battletech universe but it is not like in EVE where a spy can destroy an alliance. Spies are used by the Houses all the time and Comstar has a spy in every house, merc unit and major corporation. On top of that, Comstar knows the identity of every spy that the Houses have due to the hyper com relays. Everyone keeps looking at the fact that the OP stated that he is with Goon. So what. Their members also stated that they are going to support house Liao. So all of you FedSun pilots that are not on guard against Kurita go kick their *****. Use a spy to get some general information on their troop strengths. Find theirs and feed them false information so the fall into a trap. They are not unbeatable. All the OP did was bring up some really good points that would make this game 100 times better then its predecessors. And given the time line, they are going to be working at a disadvantage to start while they may not end up directly fighting the clans when they appear. PS Panzerbunny, I hate to say this but us Canadians do that sort of thing as well. We just don't normally go killing hostile people of interest. CSIS does not have a terminate mandate but they sure want one.

Edited by Lipot, 08 June 2012 - 08:27 PM.

[The Mittani]

PANZERBUNNY, on 08 June 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

That's EVE and trying to rationalize the actions of the U.S as some kind of acceptable level to measure ones self in gaming or life is laughable.

I'm sorry if normal people find those who infiltrate, pretending to befriend people only to attempt in draining communal gear, as mongrels and parasites.

EVE tolerates that behaviour because it's a sandbox.

I'm glad that I feel most of this games population just want to have a good time and experience a game they have been waiting years for.

Goons and KOS lists are like peanut butter and jelly.

I'm delighted to accept your enmity and your 'KOS list'; it is rare and refreshing to find someone who is still offended by basic military tactics on the internet. I think my people will have a bright future in this game, and with House Liao. You're more than welcome to try to stop us!

Meanwhile, you're derailing the thread; you haven't offered much criticism of Pringlescan's OP, but you've written a lot of words to the effect of "goons are bad" and "spies are bad". That has nothing to do with the topic.