183 replies to this topic

[Adridos]

Sephlock, on 18 June 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Honestly it doesn't seem THAT bad.

It's currently the 3rd highest mech now, actually.

[Tennex]

Adridos, on 19 June 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

It's currently the 3rd highest mech now, actually.

nice work like always

Edited by Tennex, 19 June 2013 - 07:40 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Hm I'don't think that height is the problem... maybe some one should calculate the volume of a mech.
if the CTF - have fewer volume afterwards than you can "complain" - but I don't think so because the CTF is much broader - the QKD is taller... so no problem right?

[Tennex]

Karl Streiger, on 19 June 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Hm I'don't think that height is the problem... maybe some one should calculate the volume of a mech.
if the CTF - have fewer volume afterwards than you can "complain" - but I don't think so because the CTF is much broader - the QKD is taller... so no problem right?

well your facing your front at a person if

Adridos, on 19 June 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

It's currently the 3rd highest mech now, actually.

[soapyfrog]

I've said it before and I have said it again.

I have one friend who is 5'10" and 260 lbs. I have another friend who is 6'4" and 175 lbs.

MIND BLOWN.

[Tennex]

soapyfrog, on 19 June 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

I've said it before and I have said it again.

I have one friend who is 5'10" and 260 lbs. I have another friend who is 6'4" and 175 lbs.

MIND BLOWN.

they are recreating battletech... they don't get to randomly decide how tall these mechs are.

plus nobody is going to be upset if they size by tonnage.

Edited by Tennex, 19 June 2013 - 07:51 AM.

[soapyfrog]

Tennex, on 19 June 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

they are recreating battletech... they don't get to randomly decide how tall these mechs are.

If they get the volume (assuming all mechs are made of the same material and do not have large empty internal spaces) more or less correct that is all that matters. There are no (or almost no) specific mech heights listed in the original source material.

Also note that the mechs that are complained about all have heads mounted on top of their shoulders, which will give the illusion of greater height in game. The actual height differences are minimal.

[Adridos]

Tennex, on 19 June 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

they are recreating battletech... they don't get to randomly decide how tall these mechs are.

Actually, they do. If you ask 999 canon sources, you'll get 999 different answers on the height of the mechs.

It is one of the things that was actually never defined in Battletech at all.

Karl Streiger, on 19 June 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Hm I'don't think that height is the problem... maybe some one should calculate the volume of a mech.
if the CTF - have fewer volume afterwards than you can "complain" - but I don't think so because the CTF is much broader - the QKD is taller... so no problem right?

Yeah, I agree with such argument on something like Centurion, but Quickdraw is taller, wider AND "fatter" than Awesome which is 20 tons heavier and weapon weight difference is only 5.5 ton in favor of the Awesome, not even considering the armor on it, which is much more of on the Awesome.

It simply doesn't add up no matter the way you look at it....

[Tennex]

soapyfrog, on 19 June 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

If they get the volume (assuming all mechs are made of the same material and do not have large empty internal spaces) more or less correct that is all that matters. There are no (or almost no) specific mech heights listed in the original source material.

Also note that the mechs that are complained about all have heads mounted on top of their shoulders, which will give the illusion of greater height in game. The actual height differences are minimal.

I can't find it now but there was a camo spec book by catalyst games showing a mechprofile with size lineup at the bottom of the page.

the centurion was as tall as the hunchback

Adridos, on 19 June 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

Actually, they do. If you ask 999 canon sources, you'll get 999 different answers on the height of the mechs.

It is one of the things that was actually never defined in Battletech at all.

well sh*t they could make a hunchback as tall as an atlas if they wanted to. my point is that htye shouldn't just randomly size these mechs. of course they could. but they shouldnt. as you apparently agree with about the QD sizing, where there is no logical basis.

and in light of the sketchy mech size info from the source material.
The only solid logical basis for mech sizing should be tonnage. and balance. not whatever they feel like

Edited by Tennex, 19 June 2013 - 08:08 AM.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Iv been using a 4G sense the patch and its a big freaking mech all around, basically a highlander with the weapons of a blackjack. Not only is it difficult to make a effective build (that dosnt feel like I could do it easier on a medium) but if you want jump jets it REALLY feels like a obese medium. Im getting better with it but any sort of real fighting is out of the question, alot of spider-esque hit and run moves is how it gets by though I also had some mixed results turning it into a standard heavy (IE slowdraw) and loading it up with some LRMs but a catapult will still do this better.

With the right set up i suppose I could be a lights nightmare, but its just proving to be too expensive to upgrade/run such a sub par machine.

[soapyfrog]

Adridos, on 19 June 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

but Quickdraw is taller, wider AND "fatter" than Awesome

Nonsense. Show your work.

[Sephlock]

soapyfrog, on 19 June 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Nonsense. Show your work.

It may well be thicker, if nothing else. I dunno.

[Tennex]

Sephlock, on 19 June 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

It may well be thicker, if nothing else. I dunno.

thats precisely why they should scale based on tonnage and balance. you can argue all day if you wanted to about the girth and width of a mech.

but at the end of the day all of that is hypothetical, none of us hav any way of knowing and has no impact on gameplay.

Edited by Tennex, 19 June 2013 - 08:07 AM.

[soapyfrog]

Sephlock, on 19 June 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

It may well be thicker, if nothing else. I dunno.

Just looking at their silhouettes it's pretty obvious which is the heavier mech. The quickdraw is taller only because of the head placement, the awesome is both wider and has a clearly more massive torso. As to thicker I doubt the quickdraw is in any way thicker except when measureing across some very specific cross-section, which ain't saying much at all.

[oldradagast]

I think they really don't pay any attention at all when scaling Mechs.

Yes, one can argue that height != weight, and that's true, but this mech is larger in all dimensions than it should be, unless it is absurdly thin front-to-back... which really doesn't matter since that's not the angle at which 90% of the attacks are delivered from.

Just another laughably oversized mech, like the Trenchbucket and Centurion... And they wonder why certain mechs see so much more play than others, while ignoring the effects of being oversized and thus a larger target. At least the Centurion has buggy hitboxes protecting it - I doubt this mech is so lucky.

[Adridos]

soapyfrog, on 19 June 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Nonsense. Show your work.

You meant "proof", right?

[EyeOne]

Without a clear and accurate calculation of each mech's volume this conversation can't really go anyway.

[DaZur]

Karl Streiger, on 19 June 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Hm I'don't think that height is the problem... maybe some one should calculate the volume of a mech.
if the CTF - have fewer volume afterwards than you can "complain" - but I don't think so because the CTF is much broader - the QKD is taller... so no problem right?

Truth is no matter how much math you present... This group dismisses the volume argument with a wave of their hand like some sort of Jedi mind-trick... Volume is the answer to all this but the con side of the isle is hell-bent to forward the premise that scale / size is the only viable answer.

In fairness... their arguments are centrist to the balance of the game in that the larger the mech size / scale the higher the probability to hit, which is not wrong and is a rational argument.

That said, if PGI did scale all the mechs in the linear scale proposed in their reference images... Some of the Mechs begin to cross into the "visually implausible" realm as the hardpoints for specific mechs begin to fail the 5 gallons of poo in a 2 gallon bucket litmus test..

This I think, is the crux of the problem right now... PGI is designing these mechs for visual impact and plausible weapon points... which drastically alters the TRO representations / impressions because they functionally would not work.

Personally I believe the only mechs that truly suffer from size / scale penalties are the light mechs... Once you get into the mediums, heavies and assaults... that 5 to 10 percent decrease / increase in scale is not enough to change the available surface area to shoot at / hit to make much of a difference.

TL:DR: Lot of discourse over a fundamentally small game-play impact... visual representation aside...

Edited by DaZur, 19 June 2013 - 09:17 AM.

[soapyfrog]

Adridos, on 19 June 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

You meant "proof", right?

You thanks for proving my point. The Awesome is clearly wider, more massive, and the quickdraw only "thicker" and "taller" on technicalities. i.e. the Awesome is same height at the shoulders and has a much more consistent thickness across the torso.

Tells us what the relative volumes of the models are?

[Bishop Steiner]

General Taskeen, on 18 June 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

Hehe. MWO needs a major re-scale pass.

I didn't make this image, but whoever did, it is the best re-scale concept to date:



Along with:

* Reduce Dragon hump
* Reduce width of Awesome/adjust hitbox, while making it taller as above in the image

^Basically each weight class is normalized in size by their tonnage. So a quickdraw would stand the same or similar height to the Dragon, while the JagerMech and Catapult are only slightly taller.

you are welcome. though I believe Adridos provided the initial image rips.