78 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

Vanoi, on 19 June 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

You do realize that torso turn speeds and turning speeds are different right? If one's turning speed were greater than their torso speed wouldn't this not work?

So you decided to finally post on the forum for the first time, only to make a moot point, since no mechs have a turning speed greater than their torso speed? Not to mention that in the theoretical event that such a mech did exist, it would only cause the aim to drift very slightly to one side?

Alex Warden, on 19 June 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

where in any gods name is the problem to keep the mech facing where you look at while rotating the legs? that´s one of the most intuitive things in steering a mech, a tank or myself...
why does it seem to me, that people have serious problems with EVERY aspect of moving a mech?

There's no problem. He's suggesting a basic feature, which could even be optional, that has been available for real life military vehicles for decades.

Why does it seem to me that some people are going to oppose EVERY suggestion for improvement made on this forum?

[xDeityx]

Syllogy, on 19 June 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

The Torso moves independent of the legs, but the legs do not move independent of the torso.

You are proposing that mechs have to turn their legs and torsos independently of each other, which would be a mess for any new player to get used to.

If I want to orientate my mech 90 degrees left, why should I have to turn my legs AND my torso using different controls?

While what you say is technically feasible, it just don't make no sense.

It makes sense because it would increase accuracy in combat. Right now if you want rock steady aim you have to forego turning your legs for a second while you get your shot off. With the OP's suggestion you would have no problem holding your cursor very steady on a specific component while turning your legs. The only way to do that currently is to try and rotate your torso in the opposite direction with your mouse at the same speed that your legs are rotating (plus the lateral movement to your target), which is very clunky. I've been considering purchasing some analog foot pedals just for this reason.

Why not make it a setting with a toggle? That way we don't have to argue about it.

[Tabrias07]

This would be nice. It's really annoying that your aim drifts when you turn your legs.

[Howdy Doody]

I love the current controls but that would be an interesting option.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

nice point OP, would love to try out such option

[Gaan Cathal]

Because rotating a supporting structure rotates that which it supports. That shouldn't present conceptual difficulties. It's basic everyday logical physics. But tanks can turn their base without turning their turret! Why yes they can, you know how they do this? They do it by counter-rotating the turret at the same rate as the tank turns. This can be replicated in MW:O by counter-rotating your torso when you turn the legs. Motion based inaccuracy in brawling combat is very rarely due to rotational motion (presuming you can grasp the concept of counter-rotation) but of vertical motion when your mech steps on a pebble or a car.

TL:DR - This ability is already in the game.

[Alistair Winter]

Gaan Cathal, on 19 June 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

TL:DR - This ability is already in the game.

TS clearly intended it to be done automatically, not manually.

[Zerberus]

Stand up.

Turn your torso to the left while keeping your legs stationary.

Now turn using your legs. Do NOT actively turn your torso to compensate, because you know that`s cheating.

Now, does your upper body follow the movement or not?

Now, please explain again to me why it should be any different on a battlemech.

It would be confusing to new players used to walking on 2 legs, and an exploitable crutch for bad players that can`t twist their torso faster than their legs (exploitable because the Church of Skill would use te to assist their sniping while not having to move the mouse, for which there is no technical reason other than "I can`t move my mouse arm faster than a slug". Nothing more, nothing less.

Seriously, in every FPS game ever, when you move your legs, your aim moves with it... why make this one "the FPS for Deer Hunter players" by not even having that modicum of skill involved but making it "point that way, move as much as you want, only touch mouse to aim"? One of teh staples of any FPS ever is learning to strafe.... so why not just remove that necessitty, since we`ve already removed 90% of anything that could be called skill already for the CoD kiddiez? Why not make it easy for people with even less skill?

Turns it into Nintendo Duck hunter at best, Moorhuhn at worst. Maybe we should add ammo powerups that you can shoot, or scrolling points when you actually hit something, too? Or just make all mechs stationary turrets with shootable upgrades randomly spawning on the map in teh LOS of all players? Whoever shoots first first gets the BFG or the Holy Hand Grenade....

Seriously, play any FPS game EVER, all the way back to Wolfenstein 3d, THE original FPS, and watch what the crosshair does when you move your legs any way other than forwards and backwards.

It`s just my opinion, but in my opinion this is the single dumbest idea in the history of FPS games bar none.

Edited by Zerberus, 19 June 2013 - 07:34 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Zerberus, on 19 June 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Stand up.
Turn your torso to the left while keeping your legs stationary.
Now turn using your legs. Do NOT actively turn your torso to compensate, because you know that`s cheating.
Now, does your upper body follow the movement or not?
Now, please explain again to me why it should be any different on a battlemech.

After you explain why the mech shouldn't compensate.

[Purlana]

We don't need to make it easier to hit targets...

Besides what's the point? Instead of a 100 ton mech, you would be driving a tank. So why aren't we playing WOT?

Edited by Purlana, 19 June 2013 - 07:28 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Alistair Winter, on 19 June 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

After you explain why the mech shouldn't compensate.

Purlana, on 19 June 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

We don't need to make it easier to hit targets...

Firstly, that's why. Aiming is easy enough in MW:O as it is. And we don't get any other fancy tricks either, if I go over a bump at 150k in my Raven my aim jumps. If we get to have torso turning hooked to legs we should have terrain stabilisation too. After all, tanks have it.

The mech doesn't compensate for anything other than maintaining stride, and the more direct control is kept in the players control, to succeed or fail with, the better. Automated assistance should be kept to the bare essentials.

[Mercules]

Skyfaller, on 19 June 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

If the mech has a gyro system in the torso its so that the torso keeps facing one direction when the legs move.

No, it is not for that purpose. The Gyro is to keep the mech vertical and combined with the mechwarrior's sense of balance through the neural helmet does so. That is about all it is capable of. Check out the TT game and the background fluff from the books. Mechs fall down a lot. We only don't fall down a lot in MWO because the getting up is wonky, or was when we could fall down, and people would whine till their mom wrote PGI a nasty letter.


Besides it is bluntly easy to compensate with the mouse for your leg movement. I've been doing it for over 18 years. Wasn't hard then, isn't hard now. It's a simple skill but apparently reserved for those with hand/eye coordination.

[madMAx666]

Mercules, on 19 June 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Besides it is bluntly easy to compensate with the mouse for your leg movement. I've been doing it for over 18 years. Wasn't hard then, isn't hard now. It's a simple skill but apparently reserved for those with hand/eye coordination.

The problem is the beginning and the end of the turning movement: it happens instantly (no rotational inertia). To compensate for that you would need to accelerate your mouse with infinite intensitiy. Can you do that? I don't think so. With lower FPS it also gets harder to compensate since your input lags behind (Does anyone get over 30fps?).

An easy fix would be to make turning have inertia so that you can't change your rotational velocity instantly (which would hurt lights i know). But it actually would be more realistic since a XX ton mech certanly has some rotational inertia.

EDIT: velocity vs. acceleration: http://lmgtfy.com/?q...vs+acceleration

Edited by madMAx666, 19 June 2013 - 10:38 AM.

[Purlana]

madMAx666, on 19 June 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

The problem is the beginning and the end of the turning movement: it happens instantly (no rotational inertia). To compensate for that you would need to accelerate your mouse with infinite intensitiy. Can you do that? I don't think so.

An easy fix would be to make turning have inertia so that you can't change your rotational velocity instantly (which would hurt lights i know). But it actually would be more realistic since a XX ton mech certanly has some rotational inertia.

You have not explained why it "needs" to be fixed. If it ain't broke, why fix it? We have other things to worry about.

I mean we haven't even heard a peep about collisions yet.

Edited by Purlana, 19 June 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[madMAx666]

Purlana, on 19 June 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

You have not explained why it "needs" to be fixed. If it ain't broke, why fix it? We have other things to worry about.

I mean we haven't even heard a peep about collisions yet.

Yeah i know, with the server side design it will be a huge task to implement rotational acceleration. But in the long run this should be implemented. It goes against the laws of physics and it doesn't feel right to people who have a sense for mass and inertia.

[Zerberus]

Alistair Winter, on 19 June 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

After you explain why the mech shouldn't compensate.

I think my post (after the part you quoted) makes it pretty clear why I think it shouldn`t happen. Everything from the wonky resulting new player experience to exploitability to simply dumbing the game down to the point of Duck Hunt.

I that`s all TLDR: Becasue a battle mech is more of an an extension of the pilot`s body than a replacement for his brain

Edited by Zerberus, 19 June 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[Calos112]

Not a priority in my eyes. Remembering back to all the MechWarrior games I played(with exception of the first MW released on DOS in the 1980's) I always used turning legs with my left hand on the keyboard, and set torso twist to joystick with my right hand.

Since I can't configure the joystick I just bit the bullet and got used to using the mouse in my right hand. But I will concede that they could make this an option, just not anytime soon. They have bigger problems to deal with.

[mike29tw]

madMAx666, on 19 June 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

The problem is the beginning and the end of the turning movement: it happens instantly (no rotational inertia). To compensate for that you would need to accelerate your mouse with infinite intensitiy. Can you do that? I don't think so. With lower FPS it also gets harder to compensate since your input lags behind (Does anyone get over 30fps?).

An easy fix would be to make turning have inertia so that you can't change your rotational velocity instantly (which would hurt lights i know). But it actually would be more realistic since a XX ton mech certanly has some rotational inertia.

EDIT: velocity vs. acceleration: http://lmgtfy.com/?q...vs+acceleration

And that's why the mech in MWO feels so stiff. Now to think of it, introducing rotational inertia might be a better idea. I remember MW3 has that feeling of actually piloting a heavy war machine when I'm making a turn.

[Tennex]

i woudn't mind this as an checkbox in the options setting

[Gaan Cathal]

madMAx666, on 19 June 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

The problem is the beginning and the end of the turning movement: it happens instantly (no rotational inertia). To compensate for that you would need to accelerate your mouse with infinite intensitiy. Can you do that? I don't think so. With lower FPS it also gets harder to compensate since your input lags behind (Does anyone get over 30fps?).

Or, knowing that you are going to be rotating the mech, you would be compensating for the associated torso rotation pre-emptively.