78 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

Zerberus, on 19 June 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

It would be confusing to new players used to walking on 2 legs, and an exploitable crutch for bad players that can`t twist their torso faster than their legs (exploitable because the Church of Skill would use te to assist their sniping while not having to move the mouse, for which there is no technical reason other than "I can`t move my mouse arm faster than a slug". Nothing more, nothing less.

Confusing to new players... Of all the arguments I see on this forum, this is perhaps the one I dislike the most. One of my favourite aspects of the Mechwarrior games is that they're almost like sims in their complexity. They let me push a lot of buttons and they force me to multitask. It almost feels like I'm piloting a real modern military vehicle, that doesn't just have a joystick and two buttons, for jumping and shooting.

New players who find it all confusing can go suck their thumbs and go circle strafe in Doom, and the guys at PGI who want to make Mechwarrior a third person shooter with locked arms and throttle decay, lest we confuse the fragile minds of the delicate new players, should... be ashamed.

Zerberus, on 19 June 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Seriously, in every FPS game ever, when you move your legs, your aim moves with it... why make this one "the FPS for Deer Hunter players" by not even having that modicum of skill involved but making it "point that way, move as much as you want, only touch mouse to aim"? One of teh staples of any FPS ever is learning to strafe.... so why not just remove that necessitty, since we`ve already removed 90% of anything that could be called skill already for the CoD kiddiez? Why not make it easy for people with even less skill?

I think the most important skill that should be rewarded in Mechwarrior is the ability to think on your feet, apply the proper tactics, the ability to multitask and the ability to work as a team. Not the ability to aim. When you're simulating WW2 technology as an artificial balancing tool, you're doing it wrong. It has nothing to do with making it easier, it's about making it difficult in the right way.

If I wanted to make a simple task as difficult as possible for the sake of "skill", I would be playing this game
http://www.foddy.net/Athletics.html

Let's have 4 buttons to move forward, because pressing W to run is for noobs.

Zerberus, on 19 June 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Seriously, play any FPS game EVER, all the way back to Wolfenstein 3d, THE original FPS, and watch what the crosshair does when you move your legs any way other than forwards and backwards.
It`s just my opinion, but in my opinion this is the single dumbest idea in the history of FPS games bar none.

In my opinion, MWO should not be looking at Wolfenstein 3D or any other FPS as a guide for how weapon systems on a battlemech should work. I'd look more closely at tank sims, as a battlemech is basically a tank with legs instead of caterpillars.

Gaan Cathal, on 19 June 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Firstly, that's why. Aiming is easy enough in MW:O as it is. And we don't get any other fancy tricks either, if I go over a bump at 150k in my Raven my aim jumps. If we get to have torso turning hooked to legs we should have terrain stabilisation too. After all, tanks have it.
The mech doesn't compensate for anything other than maintaining stride, and the more direct control is kept in the players control, to succeed or fail with, the better. Automated assistance should be kept to the bare essentials.

I've already addressed the point of simplicity.
I agree that there should be both vertical and horizontal stabilization.

Zerberus, on 19 June 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

I think my post (after the part you quoted) makes it pretty clear why I think it shouldn`t happen. Everything from the wonky resulting new player experience to exploitability to simply dumbing the game down to the point of Duck Hunt.
I that`s all TLDR: Becasue a battle mech is more of an an extension of the pilot`s body than a replacement for his brain

Ninja edit See above in regards to the latter.

Calos112, on 19 June 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Not a priority in my eyes. Remembering back to all the MechWarrior games I played(with exception of the first MW released on DOS in the 1980's) I always used turning legs with my left hand on the keyboard, and set torso twist to joystick with my right hand.
Since I can't configure the joystick I just bit the bullet and got used to using the mouse in my right hand. But I will concede that they could make this an option, just not anytime soon. They have bigger problems to deal with.

Hey, I remember aiming without a mouse or joystick in Wing Commander. Let's not get all crazy with nostalgia here


I know I'm arguing very hard on the side of TS here, because I like to play devil's advocate. I actually don't think this is a good idea, because it would be too hard to implement with light mechs that circle their target so damned fast. You would need to set your mouse sensitivity to over 9000 in order to keep pace. BUT... I do like debating, and I think a lot of the counterarguments presented in this thread are very weak

[Purlana]

The problem is you think MWO is a sim. Weapons would not converge like they do now if this was a sim...

Also my Atlas would crush light mechs, instead of having them hump my leg. Droping from great hights would cause major issues, instead of just 1% armor DMG. The list goes on...

Edited by Purlana, 19 June 2013 - 11:48 AM.

[Zerberus]

Purlana, on 19 June 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Also my Atlas would crush light mechs, instead of having them hump my leg. ...

Jenner Football would have an entirely different meaning than it does today, one more more like "Who`s Atlas or 'Lander can score the most field goals"

[Alistair Winter]

Purlana, on 19 June 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

The problem is you think MWO is a sim. Weapons would not converge like they do now if this was a sim...

• It's not a problem
  
• I don't think it is a sim
  
• I want to make it more like a sim
  
• I want to make it less like Wolfenstein or Tomb Raider

[Zerberus]

Alistair Winter, on 19 June 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

• It's not a problem
  
• I don't think it is a sim
  
• I want to make it more like a sim
  
• I want to make it less like Wolfenstein or Tomb Raider

I actually agree 100%... I just don`t think implementing a mechanic like this is the right way to do it *Skol*

[Purlana]

Alistair Winter, on 19 June 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

• It's not a problem
  
• I don't think it is a sim
  
• I want to make it more like a sim
  
• I want to make it less like Wolfenstein or Tomb Raider

I just don't see why the change is needed. Maybe you want the game to feel more like a sim, but overall what would the change do for the game?

Where is the payoff?

Edited by Purlana, 19 June 2013 - 12:01 PM.

[xDeityx]

Purlana, on 19 June 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

I just don't see why the change is needed. Maybe you want the game to feel more like a sim, but overall what would the change do for the game?

Where is the payoff?

Why are you creating a false dichotomy? People who want this aren't advocating for a change in the way you control your 'mech, we are advocating for further options in the way we control ours.

[Skyfaller]

There is some misunderstanding here.

If your legs and torso are both aligned and looking ahead..and you are moving.. the moment you tap.. just TAP the A or S key to turn the legs left or right...

the game does a snap, abrupt turn of the legs. It is not the same smooth movement as it would be if it was a mouse.

Therefore, when you are moving and trying to keep your aim on a target and you have to turn the legs a bit.. that abrupt movement will swing your mouse off the target before you can even counter the movement with the mouse.

What I'm asking for is that the torso not be moved when the legs are moved UNLESS the torso reaches its max left/right turn limit.

aka, if I aim the torso at one point I dont want the leg movement moving the aimpoint from that very point.

Mechs have a gyro in the CT section. Gyros are supossed to stabilize a platform on the move.. not just from up/down movement but also left/right movement. Right now it only does up/down apparently.

[Purlana]

xDeityx, on 19 June 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Why are you creating a false dichotomy? People who want this aren't advocating for a change in the way you control your 'mech, we are advocating for further options in the way we control ours.

That's not the point. Changes require effort (Cash), so in order to warrent a change their must be some sort of payoff somewhere.

Edited by Purlana, 19 June 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[xDeityx]

Purlana, on 19 June 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

That's not the point. Changes require effort (Cash), so in order to warrent a change their must be some sort of payoff somewhere.

The payoff is steadier aim in combat. Countering the leg rotation with your mouse is clunky. I would much rather have this option than one to toggle arm lock or to center my legs/torso with the F and C keys.

This should not be a labor-intensive change.

[Alistair Winter]

Purlana, on 19 June 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

I just don't see why the change is needed. Maybe you want the game to feel more like a sim, but overall what would the change do for the game?
Where is the payoff?

What I wrote above about making the game more challenging in other ways, and taking the focus away from pr0 aiming skills.

I know the fans are divided on this. Some people want to move closer to FPS games like Quake 1, where reaction time and aiming skills is paramount. Other people want to have more focus on tactics and strategy, and don't really care that LRMs are "noob no skill weapons", because they don't consider aiming to be all that important to the experience. Ref: Mack1 and his philosophy on artillery mechs

[Koreanese]

Lol! Lets make this game even easier then it already is!

[Alistair Winter]

Koreanese, on 19 June 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

Lol! Lets make this game even easier then it already is!

TL;DR

[Unbound Inferno]

Syllogy, on 19 June 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

The Torso moves independent of the legs, but the legs do not move independent of the torso.

You are proposing that mechs have to turn their legs and torsos independently of each other, which would be a mess for any new player to get used to.

If I want to orientate my mech 90 degrees left, why should I have to turn my legs AND my torso using different controls?

While what you say is technically feasible, it just don't make no sense.

This answer, right here. You twist your torso according to your leg's orientation - but moving your legs affect that orientation.

The torso twist speed isn't the same as the leg's turning speed so you get that shift you notice. Its working just fine I think as it is.

[Koreanese]

It took me long time to stablize my aim while imturning. Isnt that what playing game is about? Whats the point in making the game easier? There is no challenge to get better

[Alistair Winter]

Koreanese, on 19 June 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

It took me long time to stablize my aim while imturning. Isnt that what playing game is about? Whats the point in making the game easier? There is no challenge to get better

If you're actually asking, and not just posing a rhetorical question, you can see my answer in a post above.

The short answer is: there are other challenges in this game besides aiming. Imagine a modern engagement between two squadrons of battle tanks. Aiming would be a small part of the equation, I think. It just depends on what you consider fun. But there's no more or less skill involved.

[MasterErrant]

Skyfaller, on 19 June 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

Devs,

There is no reason for the torso to move when the legs rotate. If the mech has a gyro system in the torso its so that the torso keeps facing one direction when the legs move.

One of the biggest problems of this game is the user-unfriendly controls..namely digital-only movement.

With a keyboard or a joystick the legs turn in violent bursts. There is no way to rotate them at a rate slow enough that it allows the torso to remain facing where it is by moving in the opposite direction with the mouse (analog-like movement).

Please remove the torso being moved around when the legs move. That should only happen if the torso reaches its max swing angle when the legs move.

I agree tht turning is a little choppy on some dhassis. but the seperate torso and leg controls are proper. if you don't want the torso to turn with the legs control it. unless an option to have the torso lock onto targeted mechs. but even that would be bad in a fast rolling furball.
mechs are "NOt" tanks. theyu are supposed to move like us. and when we turn it takes a conscious effort to fact away from the directions our legs move.

[Gaan Cathal]

Alistair Winter, on 19 June 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

• It's not a problem
  
• I don't think it is a sim
  
• I want to make it more like a sim
  
• I want to make it less like Wolfenstein or Tomb Raider

I honestly don't get why, wanting this more simlike, you want the player to need to exert less influence over the mech. As a (primerily) light mech pilot part of the skill involved in piloting said mech is keeping my aim on target while twisting and jinking every which way over rough ground. I like that difficulty. I don't want the mech to do that for me any more than I want it to stop firing my weapons when there's no mech under the reticule, or start when there is. If the torso is so stabilised I'm essentially rolling along on an ice rink then there's nothing to aiming except pointing and clicking. Pointing and clicking is easy. A huge part of the reason for the current dominance of huge-alpha ranged boats is exactly that. All they need to do is point and click. The skill ceiling for effective sniping in MW:O is incredibly low. I want that skill ceiling raised, not mine lowered.

In other news, definately needs more Wolfenstien. Specifically Mecha {Godwin's Law}. Yeah I know it's bleeped. You know who I mean.

[Thuzel]

Syllogy, on 19 June 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

The Torso moves independent of the legs, but the legs do not move independent of the torso.

You are proposing that mechs have to turn their legs and torsos independently of each other, which would be a mess for any new player to get used to.

If I want to orientate my mech 90 degrees left, why should I have to turn my legs AND my torso using different controls?

While what you say is technically feasible, it just don't make no sense.

I disagree, it makes a lot of sense. It makes a heck of a lot more sense than throttle decay or arm locking, in any case.

I'd like to see this as an option. If the devs think it'll be too hard for new players to grasp, then set the default to the way it works currently.

Edited by Thuzel, 19 June 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Maybe im just sleep deprived but let me get this straight: The problem you guys are having is that your mechs torso stays relative to the legs so when the mech turns it invariably turns the whole damn mech forcing you to adjust your aim by turning your torso to aim where you originally intended?


Soooooo your solution is to have the torso automatically turn independently of the legs to keep pointing at the direction I pointed it?

...............why is there three pages of this?