74 replies to this topic

[Vespere Dax]

The convergence is insane in this game.
Remember the Inner sphere is aparently in a technological void where they can't even repair thier own lostech. They shouldn't be able to land 6xppcs on a dime at 900m out.

So how to deal with the boaters. As more weapons are fired the worst your convergence is. So yeah you alpha with 6 ppcs well only 3 are going to hit from long range. This makes sense considering the 'kick' associated with these weapons. Same thing with dual AC20's. IF you shoot 2 simultaneously it's going to rock your mech. Also in reality they will not fire exactly at the same time so the kick from one should effect the shot of the other.

So boaters won't be able to alpha strike as effectively.

One step closer to the boater solution.

[Zaptruder]

Vespere Dax, on 19 June 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

The convergence is insane in this game.
Remember the Inner sphere is aparently in a technological void where they can't even repair thier own lostech. They shouldn't be able to land 6xppcs on a dime at 900m out.

So how to deal with the boaters. As more weapons are fired the worst your convergence is. So yeah you alpha with 6 ppcs well only 3 are going to hit from long range. This makes sense considering the 'kick' associated with these weapons. Same thing with dual AC20's. IF you shoot 2 simultaneously it's going to rock your mech. Also in reality they will not fire exactly at the same time so the kick from one should effect the shot of the other.

So boaters won't be able to alpha strike as effectively.

One step closer to the boater solution.

Yeah. There has been a fair number of variations of this suggestion been proposed over the last few months.

I think the community is starting to coalesce on the idea that divergence is the correct way to solve the current state of the meta.

Check out this thread for a good breakdown of how such a system would work in detail.

https://mwomercs.com...oats-and-clans/

[tenderloving]

To expand on the post above me; it does seem like the community is leaning toward convergence as the fix among many other decent choices.

PGI, however, made up their own hair-brained fix that nobody asked for, which won't actually hurt the main offenders.

[OneEyed Jack]

I don't believe that deciding convergence/divergence after the fire button is pressed is a realistic solution. get rid of fire delay after all this time, and there have been huge issues with hit detection, and you want the game to decide whether the shot went where you were aiming or not after the button is pressed? Yeah... that could work....

[Vespere Dax]

OneEyed Jack, on 19 June 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

I don't believe that deciding convergence/divergence after the fire button is pressed is a realistic solution. get rid of fire delay after all this time, and there have been huge issues with hit detection, and you want the game to decide whether the shot went where you were aiming or not after the button is pressed? Yeah... that could work....

Well look at it this way Jack. Look at the jump jet shake. It makes sense because you're forcing 90 tons off the ground from a stand still. Not quite a spaceshuttle but have you seen the challenger shake doing take off? Yeah it makes sense.

So does diminishing accuracy as more weapons are fired. The slight millisecond delay between weapons being fired will effect each other.

Solution Jack. Don't alpha but fire them 1 or 2 at a time.

[OneEyed Jack]

Vespere Dax, on 19 June 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

Well look at it this way Jack. Look at the jump jet shake. It makes sense because you're forcing 90 tons off the ground from a stand still. Not quite a spaceshuttle but have you seen the challenger shake doing take off? Yeah it makes sense.

So does diminishing accuracy as more weapons are fired. The slight millisecond delay between weapons being fired will effect each other.

Solution Jack. Don't alpha but fire them 1 or 2 at a time.

Besides the fact that your "logic" is anything but (it would take a lot more than a millisecond delay to affect subsequent shots), I wasn't even saying anything about whatever fantasy logic people wanted to apply. I was saying it wouldn't effing work worth a damn because the weapons-fire and hit-detection coding already struggle enough. Learn to effing read.

[Zyllos]

That is the current issue. PGI is wholely against implementing a CoF.

I don't understand why CoF is so bad for a game that needs CoF more than any other FPS?

All other FPSs only allow a single weapon to be fired at any given time. I would say it makes sense that all other FPSs needs to remove CoF while MWO needs CoF due to having the ability to fire multiple weapons at the same time.

But, having a CoF even doesn't 100% fix the problem. We all know that a CoF effects snipers more than brawlers and the consensus is still out on how they effect scouts and strikers.

Having the same CoF size at 500m is must worse than at 200m. And this is where things becomes extremely complicated.

Do you balance the CoF based on the range of the weapon?
Do you balance the CoF based on the number of weapons fired?
Maybe CoF should be based on throttle, movement actions, and/or heat when fired?
What about closely mounted weapon systems crossing each other due to CoF?

Edited by Zyllos, 19 June 2013 - 06:55 AM.

[TexAce]

if you ask me there should be no convergence for torso weapons at all even if it means having multiple circles/crosshairs for aiming

[ExtremeA79]

Vespere Dax, on 19 June 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

The convergence is insane in this game.
Remember the Inner sphere is aparently in a technological void where they can't even repair thier own lostech. They shouldn't be able to land 6xppcs on a dime at 900m out.

So how to deal with the boaters. As more weapons are fired the worst your convergence is. So yeah you alpha with 6 ppcs well only 3 are going to hit from long range. This makes sense considering the 'kick' associated with these weapons. Same thing with dual AC20's. IF you shoot 2 simultaneously it's going to rock your mech. Also in reality they will not fire exactly at the same time so the kick from one should effect the shot of the other.

So boaters won't be able to alpha strike as effectively.

One step closer to the boater solution.

Mechs aren't suppose to even handle 6 ppc's, let alone fire them at once without exploding.

Hard point sizes and heat balance are the way to go.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

Convergence penalties are only workable if the HUD indicates to the user how those penalties take effect. Same applies for penalizing players for firing multiple weapons at the same time. I'm not completely against a more restrictive convergence mechanic, but convergence is naively advertised on these forums like a cure-all.

Even with any kind of Boat/Convergence change, brawling weapons still do miserable damage compared to sniping. So don't expect that aspect of the metagame to change.

As soon as any kind of boat/convergence penalty is implemented, the talented players will adapt to it, find the best build that gets the job done, and continue to curb-stomp the scrubs from long range.

Edited by Eldragon, 19 June 2013 - 07:13 AM.

[Lootee]

Vespere Dax, on 19 June 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

The convergence is insane in this game.
Remember the Inner sphere is aparently in a technological void where they can't even repair thier own lostech. They shouldn't be able to land 6xppcs on a dime at 900m out.

True, that's the setting of the BattleTech universe.

But in the minds of the spazkiddies this game happens some time some place where the Inner Sphere has the technology of SkyNet, the Borg and the Q all rolled into 1. 6000 PPCs could converge on the head of a pin because they gots the tech to transmute matter at the molecular level and if something like gravity, thrust, drag, wind, or magnetism is causing a shot to deviate they can alter the laws of nature on the fly too.

Just think of MWO as happening in an alternate reality. Sort of like Predator 2, Alien 3, Highlander 2, and Star Trek 5. It's in no way shape or form intended to be BattleTech related, except to sucker some people into paying startup cash.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 19 June 2013 - 07:10 AM.

[Mackman]

PGI is against any form of randomization, and rightly so. Randomization (a cone of fire in this instance) exists only to soften the skill curve, to make it so someone less skilled can, on occasion, win against someone who is more skilled.

In a game that strives to have even matchmaking, such allowances are utterly unnecessary. Skill should be the only thing deciding the outcome of a match: Not an RNG that determines that your shots went wide while his hit home.

EDIT: I should note that I agree that it's not fun seeing nothing but PPC boats day after day: I used to primarily pilot a 4-PPC Stalker until I realized how much more fun it is to do more fun and crazy stuff most of the time. But PGI is looking into other NON-randomized ways of fixing it, and that's the right call.

Edited by Mackman, 19 June 2013 - 07:10 AM.

[Vespere Dax]

OneEyed Jack, on 19 June 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Besides the fact that your "logic" is anything but (it would take a lot more than a millisecond delay to affect subsequent shots), I wasn't even saying anything about whatever fantasy logic people wanted to apply. I was saying it wouldn't effing work worth a damn because the weapons-fire and hit-detection coding already struggle enough. Learn to effing read.

That's a code and hit detection problem. Fine it struggles but eventually will be fixed. Hence the existence of the 'Host State Rewind' fixes. We're talking about boating, long and short and solutions for it.

And dude, chill. I wasn't calling you a fool or an *****. Why the hostility? It's wednesday morning and I'm in the office so yeah, I'm reading like 10 e-mails from my inbox and work while posting on the forums. Relax.

PanchoTortilla, on 19 June 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

True, that's the setting of the BattleTech universe.

But in the minds of the spazkiddies this game happens some time some place where the Inner Sphere has the technology of SkyNet, the Borg and the Q all rolled into 1. 6000 PPCs could converge on the head of a pin because they gots the tech to transmute matter at the molecular level and if something like gravity, thrust, drag, wind, or magnetism is causing a shot to deviate they can alter the laws of nature on the fly too.

Just think of MWO as happening in an alternate reality. Sort of like Predator 2, Alien 3, Highlander 2, and Star Trek 5. It's in no way shape or form intended to be BattleTech related, except to sucker some people into paying startup cash.

This made me lol. I think my co-workers think I'm nuts.

[OneEyed Jack]

Darren Tyler, on 19 June 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

Mechs aren't suppose to even handle 6 ppc's, let alone fire them at once without exploding.

According to who? FASA, the original creators? Nope, they never suggested anything of the sort. Catalyst, the current publishers? Nope, they never said anything like that, either. Oh, you must mean PGI! Wait... no.... they never said it.

So where exactly did this info come from, hmmm?

[Hotthedd]

Mackman, on 19 June 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

PGI is against any form of randomization, and rightly so. Randomization (a cone of fire in this instance) exists only to soften the skill curve, to make it so someone less skilled can, on occasion, win against someone who is more skilled.

In a game that strives to have even matchmaking, such allowances are utterly unnecessary. Skill should be the only thing deciding the outcome of a match: Not an RNG that determines that your shots went wide while his hit home.

EDIT: I should note that I agree that it's not fun seeing nothing but PPC boats day after day: I used to primarily pilot a 4-PPC Stalker until I realized how much more fun it is to do more fun and crazy stuff most of the time. But PGI is looking into other NON-randomized ways of fixing it, and that's the right call.

Having multiple shots all magically hit the same spot when fired at once negates skill.
With this mechanic, even the least skilled pilot only has to get lucky once if the alpha is big enough.
It takes MORE skill to aim, fire, and hit the same spot several times. Pinpoint convergence dumbs down the game.

Think about it: How many people do you know that can fire two weapons at once and hit the same (small) target? With three weapons? Four weapons? The more weapons you fire at once, the less accurate you are going to be.

[ExtremeA79]

OneEyed Jack, on 19 June 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

According to who? FASA, the original creators? Nope, they never suggested anything of the sort. Catalyst, the current publishers? Nope, they never said anything like that, either. Oh, you must mean PGI! Wait... no.... they never said it.

So where exactly did this info come from, hmmm?

Where did you get your info where IS cannot hit a dime?

First off, not able to use 6 ppc's comes from TT. You also never hear about it in Lore or novels.
2nd, I got the not being able to fire all at once without exploding from everything. TT, lore, novels, common sense (a clan mech wih clan dHs and 4 er ppc's cannot fire all at once without overheating, the masakari so how can a inner sphere mech handle 6?)

I can say the same about your idea. You did not say where did you get you information , this idea. Who told you that your convergence craps out when you alpha? Pgi?
If you are going to be a *** go to off topic.

[Mackman]

Hotthedd, on 19 June 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

Having multiple shots all magically hit the same spot when fired at once negates skill.
With this mechanic, even the least skilled pilot only has to get lucky once if the alpha is big enough.
It takes MORE skill to aim, fire, and hit the same spot several times. Pinpoint convergence dumbs down the game.

Think about it: How many people do you know that can fire two weapons at once and hit the same (small) target? With three weapons? Four weapons? The more weapons you fire at once, the less accurate you are going to be.

It doesn't negate skill at all. What negates skill is lining up the perfect shot and having them miss because the RNG said so. That is literally the negation of skill, because your skill in aiming no longer matters as much.

PGI has said, from the very beginning, that they wanted a game where the pilot, and nobody else, determines where weapons hit. That's the game they built, and that's the game they've held to ever since the beginning.

Now, that may not fit your interpretation of MechWarrior.

It may not fit your criteria for a good game.

But it's the game they're building. Now, the really funny thing is that the people advocating for a cone of fire are often the same people using terms like "CoD kids" and "spazzkidies"... when the mechanic they're asking for is, in fact, a primary feature of CoD itself, and a major factor in dumbing down the game and making it less skill-based.

[FupDup]

Darren Tyler, on 19 June 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

First off, not able to use 6 ppc's comes from TT. You also never hear about it in Lore or novels.
2nd, I got the not being able to fire all at once without exploding from everything. TT, lore, novels, common sense (a clan mech wih clan dHs and 4 er ppc's cannot fire all at once without overheating, the masakari so how can a inner sphere mech handle 6?)

The Hellstar would like to have a word with you. 4 Clan ER PPCs and 30 DHS. In TT, it can alpha strike repeatedly with zero fear of heat problems unless its heatsinks get damaged.

The reason you don't see stock mechs carrying loadouts like that very often is because the TT writers deliberately made most mechs suck. Notice how a lot of them don't use tech upgrades even when they could, or put their ammo in vulnerable places, or skimp on the armor, are too slow, have too few heat sinks, lack weapons to defend itself at long or short range, etc.? Stock mechs are built specifically to suck a lot of the time. In a PvP environment, the first thing players do is remove the TT weaknesses from mechs and apply every little optimization possible.

Edited by FupDup, 19 June 2013 - 07:31 AM.

[Spheroid]

Mackman, on 19 June 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

PGI is against any form of randomization, and rightly so. Randomization (a cone of fire in this instance) exists only to soften the skill curve, to make it so someone less skilled can, on occasion, win against someone who is more skilled.

How are they against it if such a mechanic is already in place for jump jet firing and machine guns?

[MaddMaxx]

Not likely to happen but add one more Reticule and use this method to converge Torso and arms. The time required for the traverse could be tested after some debate.