72 replies to this topic

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 02 November 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

Honestly, I feel like the worry about the Timber Wolf's side torsos are a bit... premature? Excessive? Considering the center torso pretty much makes up the bulk (IE: everything BUT the missile pods!) of the mech's torso real estate, that is what I would be most concerned about. Two tiny missile pods that can easily have the missile blast doors attached to them for the passive 10% damage reduction seems like hardly an earth shattering problem. This is compounded by the Clan XL Engine requiring not just one but both side torsos to be blown off for engine failure further reducing the risk.

This assuming the missile launchers will be part of the side torsos.

[Pariah Devalis]

Given that has been the fear everyone has had, yes, that is assuming that PGI will not give the mech free armor, and put the missile pods, which are part of the side torso and have been in every version of the Timber Wolf in existence (outside of MW4 which gave the same advantage to almost every mech out there in some way shape or form). Making it extra segments without doing the same for the other mechs out there would give it an unfair advantage. Making it a side torso opens it to the risk of being singled out and shot out, but that is not going to be any harder than side torsoing a cataphract. Except, of course, the Cataphract explodes when only one side is taken out and it uses an XL engine. Oh, and the Cataphract is not hauling *** at 95 KPH after speed tweak.

The biggest threat to the mech is the gigantic center torso. Something even MW4 could not address. The mech was a deathtrap because almost unerringly you could nail it from practically any angle. It would require some creative torso hitboxes to avoid making it into a Clan version of the Dragon, which shares a similar st/CT/st spread.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 02 November 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 02 November 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

It would require some creative torso hitboxes to avoid making it into a Clan version of the Dragon, which shares a similar st/CT/st spread.

What about the Catapult? And for sure it will have a shorter CT.

[Pariah Devalis]

Catapult suffers the CT issue, too. In fact, that is why people consider it XL safe. XL safe just means the CT is a big old hit me sign. I rather lose a Clan mech's side torso than my center torso, personally. Giving them something (tiny and hard to hit at the speeds the mech moves at) other than my center torso to shoot at sounds like a perk to me.

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 02 November 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

Catapult suffers the CT issue, too. In fact, that is why people consider it XL safe. XL safe just means the CT is a big old hit me sign. I rather lose a Clan mech's side torso than my center torso, personally. Giving them something (tiny and hard to hit at the speeds the mech moves at) other than my center torso to shoot at sounds like a perk to me.

Sure, i use XL on Cats, too. I see that they used some artistic hitboxes for the sides, thought they may do the same for the TW..

[Pariah Devalis]

Oh, I agree. They will need to. Especially since if the mech does not load any missiles, the missile pods should poof. Gotta be a way to hit the side torsos on the mech when the pods are removed. But because of the pods, how much side torso will they give them otherwise?



The side torsos may only be some of the petaled areas above and to the side of the central mass. That is a teenie tiny target. :\

[Strum Wealh]

CyclonerM, on 02 November 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

This assuming the missile launchers will be part of the side torsos.

Considering all of the other things that could have been made separate pods but weren't (including but not limited to: the AC mount & SRM launcher on the Atlas, the hunch on the Hunchback, the missile pods on the Thunderbolt and the BattleMaster, the AC mount on the Orion, the missile launcher on the Orion (as it could have instead been designed to be a pod that sits over/around the shoulder, as is commonly depicted for the Orion IIC, than being the shoulder itself),and even the crest on the Centurion (yes, a Cent can be cored by shooting only its crest/"mohawk"!)), the Mad Cat's missile launchers' being part of the respective side-torsi is a rather-likely-to-be-correct assumption.

Pariah Devalis, on 02 November 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

Given that has been the fear everyone has had, yes, that is assuming that PGI will not give the mech free armor, and put the missile pods, which are part of the side torso and have been in every version of the Timber Wolf in existence (outside of MW4 which gave the same advantage to almost every mech out there in some way shape or form). Making it extra segments without doing the same for the other mechs out there would give it an unfair advantage. Making it a side torso opens it to the risk of being singled out and shot out, but that is not going to be any harder than side torsoing a cataphract. Except, of course, the Cataphract explodes when only one side is taken out and it uses an XL engine. Oh, and the Cataphract is not hauling *** at 95 KPH after speed tweak.

The biggest threat to the mech is the gigantic center torso. Something even MW4 could not address. The mech was a deathtrap because almost unerringly you could nail it from practically any angle. It would require some creative torso hitboxes to avoid making it into a Clan version of the Dragon, which shares a similar st/CT/st spread.

Pariah Devalis, on 02 November 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

Catapult suffers the CT issue, too. In fact, that is why people consider it XL safe. XL safe just means the CT is a big old hit me sign. I rather lose a Clan mech's side torso than my center torso, personally. Giving them something (tiny and hard to hit at the speeds the mech moves at) other than my center torso to shoot at sounds like a perk to me.

Given that the direct-fire mounts on the Mad Cat (usually come combination of Medium Pulse Lasers and Machine Guns) are mounted on either side of the cockpit, it would seem that there is a chance that the side-torsi would also extend forward along the central body, similar to what is done for the Catapult and Stalker (which also have direct-fire weapons mounted in analogous positions).

[Pariah Devalis]

Honestly, I almost feel like the Stalker's hitbox layout was a direct response to the Catapults. It had the unfortunate side effect of making the mech's side torsos way too easy to hit in relation to the thing's CT. Good for zombifying, but bad for the people who seem intent on slapping an XL engine on a stalker. People to which I will not correct their odd choice of mech/engine combination, as I intend to continue exploiting that mental oversight.

[CyclonerM]

[Strum Wealh]

Pariah Devalis, on 02 November 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

Honestly, I almost feel like the Stalker's hitbox layout was a direct response to the Catapults. It had the unfortunate side effect of making the mech's side torsos way too easy to hit in relation to the thing's CT. Good for zombifying, but bad for the people who seem intent on slapping an XL engine on a stalker. People to which I will not correct their odd choice of mech/engine combination, as I intend to continue exploiting that mental oversight.

Though, it does illustrate the point - I would expect the fronts of the side-torsi to extend far enough forward to cover the MGs/MPLs typically mounted on the sides of the central body, while also covering the sides of the "boxy portion" behind the "B-29 portion" of the central body and the fronts & sides of the missile launchers.

I would then expect the rears of the side-torsi to cover the backs of the missile launchers and part of the back of the boxy portion (maybe ~25% for each side-torso).

CyclonerM, on 02 November 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

It does bear noting that the Catapult's missile pods are, in fact, the Catapult's arms and that fact is why they are separate from the (relatively tiny) side-torsi.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 02 November 2013 - 04:26 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Indeed. I feel like it is going to be an interesting balancing act (that will get rushed out the door ) between setting the side torso hitboxes small enough that it is no undue risk to have the missile pods on the Timber Wolf, while large enough that they can actually be aimed for and hit if the player decides not to carry any LRMs or SRMs. I could absolutely see it wrapping around the nose cone like it does on the Catapult, however. Less so as the Stalker.

[Strum Wealh]

Also, another thing to note is that the original Mad Cat illustrations (and some other older illustrations) didn't have the "boxy portion" at all (or, had it in a more rounded and less-pronounced form).









Suppose PGI were to follow something more like the second and fourth images, where the boxy portion is dispensed with in favor of bringing the launchers lower and inward, closer to the central body?

[Pariah Devalis]

It would certainly help solve the issues surrounding the pods, but how much rage would it incite in those who insist on matching the "classic" look as closely as possible?

[Lukoi Banacek]

Pariah Devalis, on 02 November 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

It would certainly help solve the issues surrounding the pods, but how much rage would it incite in those who insist on matching the "classic" look as closely as possible?

Couldn't be much worse if at all over that for the 3PV or coolant flush

[Strum Wealh]

Pariah Devalis, on 02 November 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

It would certainly help solve the issues surrounding the pods, but how much rage would it incite in those who insist on matching the "classic" look as closely as possible?

Lukoi, on 02 November 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Couldn't be much worse if at all over that for the 3PV or coolant flush

And, remember when the Centurion - the first to radically depart from its classic look - first came out?

[Pariah Devalis]

Difference being the centurion was horrible looking to start with. Far from an "icon of Battletech."

I mean, what are we looking at here, exactly?





I lump it in the same category as the Kintaro redesign: SORELY IN NEED.

That said, my concern is more rooted in how people have been reacting to the MAD redesigns. I am sure people would "get over it" eventually, but there would be quite a bit of irritation or anger over a big enough change to the 'classic' many grew up to love.

Personally? As long as the mech keeps its feel, I am fine. Some of the classic clan mechs, like the Mad Dog, Summoner, Hellbringer, and Gargoyle are up there in my desire to see a new take on them.

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 02 November 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

It would certainly help solve the issues surrounding the pods, but how much rage would it incite in those who insist on matching the "classic" look as closely as possible?

Much rage. Trust me.

Lukoi, on 02 November 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Couldn't be much worse if at all over that for the 3PV or coolant flush

Neg. It could,trust me. They have to be really careful with it or a new unprecedented wave of rage will be unleashed.

Prophet of the Apocalypse mod /off

Pariah Devalis, on 02 November 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

That said, my concern is more rooted in how people have been reacting to the MAD redesigns. I am sure people would "get over it" eventually, but there would be quite a bit of irritation or anger over a big enough change to the 'classic' many grew up to love.

Personally? As long as the mech keeps its feel, I am fine. Some of the classic clan mechs, like the Mad Dog, Summoner, Hellbringer, and Gargoyle are up there in my desire to see a new take on them.

Why? As you can see in MW:LL, the first three you mentioned have some of the best original designs. Do not change them,please. Omnimechs are just fine, quiaff?
Don't touch my Omnimechs!

[pbiggz]

Its worth noting that every mech we will get in this game is gonna get the flyingdebris facelift. That's not a bad thing in my opinion, and tbh the classic timberwolf would look pretty out of place in the current game. Alex likes his angles, not curves.
I'm hoping they stay closer to the CBT look though, I hated the mechwarrior 4 summoner and hellbringer. Seeing a summoner in mechwarrior 3 filled me with dread, in mechwarrior 4 it just irritated me.

[Pariah Devalis]

Part of me is hoping either that Clan Mechs will have rounder designs overall as part of their aesthetic, or else Clan mechs will borrow heavily from fifth generation aircraft. Clean lines, a nice mix of angled and smooth. Subtle but functional surface details. I can very easily imagine the cockpit of a Stormcrow redesign, for example, modeled after the F-35's cockpit.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 04 November 2013 - 07:08 AM.

[HugoStiglitz]

Here is how I would deal with the Mad Cat (or Timber Wolf if you really want to get **** about it). Reduce the side torso crit slots in half and give the remaining crit slots to the missile pods, so the side torsos have 6 and the missile pods have 6. Have armor applied to the side torsos split between the missile pod and the torso but to the mad cat's advantage (75% of all armor points spent applied to both or maybe lower if needed), so that the Mad Cat isn't out classed by snipers aiming down the giant pods.

Other options would be to reduce the size of the pods to something along the profile of the Battlemaster's shoulder missile racks, I just don't think that would feel like a Mad Cat though. All this speculation is moot though since we don't even know how omni mechs are going to work. Here's to hoping for a Christmas present in the form of an announcement from PGI.