41 replies to this topic

[Charons Little Helper]

I've mentioned this on another thread or two, but I figured that it deserved its own thread.

There's been a lot of theories about how to balance the incoming clans and Inner Sphere. There seem to be two basic theories on how it should be done.

1. Inner Sphere mechs outnumbering Clan Mechs. Whatever numbers 12 v 8 or 8 v 5 etc. I think that this is a bad idea. It would be very difficult to balance properly, and would be somewhat unsatisfying to the players on both sides. Either they have inferior tech, or they're outnumbered every match.

2. Force some sort of honor system on Clan Mechs. There's no real way to do this properly. Maybe you could give them fewer rewards (c-bills / xp) for not being honorable - but then both sides know that the clans could always win if they decided to fight properly.

I suggest a 3rd option.

3. Have the numbers be equal. No forced honor system. Instead, Inner Sphere mechs come to battle with creep backup - tanks, helicopters, artillery etc.

Think of it as Clan Mechs challenging Inner Sphere Mechs to a battle. The Inner Sphere mechs agree - then bring along the help. Clan Mechs would never do such a thing due to their honor.

It would be very easy to tweak the balance. Weapons and mechs are hard. With creeps, simply record the overall win / loss of clans vs inner sphere. After a decent chunk (so law of large number applies), either increase or decrease the number of creeps for better balance. (though the number and type would need to vary by map of course)

[BlackIronTarkus]

PGI is incapable of delivering what you are asking for. AI, code, netcode, new models, animations and textures for something that barely influance gameplay and would require a lot of fine tuning.

[FupDup]

Clans aren't going to be balanced. They will be either underpowered due to fewer numbers/Omni restrictions or overpowered due to free customization/equal numbers. Making it so a Clan team has an equal probability of winning as an Inner Sphere team is effectively impossible giving how Clans worked in the lore and how bad PGI is at balancing things. One way or another, they will not be balanced because it is impossible by definition.

One of the sides will have a definitive advantage over the other in some way (as in they are more likely to win, sort of like a brawler team versus an equal skill ERPPC team in the current meta), and that is the side that everyone will play as except for roleplayers to serve as fodder.

Edited by FupDup, 18 June 2013 - 09:41 AM.

[Alex Warden]

BlackIronTarkus, on 18 June 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

PGI is incapable of delivering what you are asking for. AI, code, netcode, new models, animations and textures for something that barely influance gameplay and would require a lot of fine tuning.

they are/ or will soon be working on a basic AI afaik... at least they mentioned some "basic AI functionality for training grounds"... they also said that IF combined arms ever appeared, it would most likely be AI controlled tanks and inf... so no,it´s not impossible, but be sure we will wait for stuff like that like at least 1 year or more...

FupDup, on 18 June 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

Clans aren't going to be balanced. They will be either underpowered due to fewer numbers/Omni restrictions or overpowered due to free customization/equal numbers. Making it so a Clan team has an equal probability of winning as an Inner Sphere team is effectively impossible giving how Clans worked in the lore and how bad PGI is at balancing things. One way or another, they will not be balanced because it is impossible by definition.

One of the sides will have a definitive advantage over the other in some way (as in they are more likely to win, sort of like a brawler team versus an equal skill ERPPC team in the current meta), and that is the side that everyone will play as except for roleplayers to serve as fodder.

clans are already balanced... if the IS gets hands on clantech as well, Clans might indeed be a bit underpowered due to their restrictive construction rules..but anyway, we´ll have to wait it out

Edited by Alex Warden, 18 June 2013 - 09:50 AM.

[Kissamies]

While I would love to see vehicles on the battlefield, that would take a lot of implementation and will not happen. The combination of giving IS bigger numbers and having the the rewards encourage clan dueling style (not giving c-bills, prestige or whatever it will be called for clans for assists, for example) sounds like the best way to handle this.

[El Bandito]

Charons Little Helper, on 18 June 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

I've mentioned this on another thread or two, but I figured that it deserved its own thread. There's been a lot of theories about how to balance the incoming clans and Inner Sphere. There seem to be two basic theories on how it should be done. 1. Inner Sphere mechs outnumbering Clan Mechs. Whatever numbers 12 v 8 or 8 v 5 etc. I think that this is a bad idea. It would be very difficult to balance properly, and would be somewhat unsatisfying to the players on both sides. Either they have inferior tech, or they're outnumbered every match. 2. Force some sort of honor system on Clan Mechs. There's no real way to do this properly. Maybe you could give them fewer rewards (c-bills / xp) for not being honorable - but then both sides know that the clans could always win if they decided to fight properly. I suggest a 3rd option. 3. Have the numbers be equal. No forced honor system. Instead, Inner Sphere mechs come to battle with creep backup - tanks, helicopters, artillery etc. Think of it as Clan Mechs challenging Inner Sphere Mechs to a battle. The Inner Sphere mechs agree - then bring along the help. Clan Mechs would never do such a thing due to their honor. It would be very easy to tweak the balance. Weapons and mechs are hard. With creeps, simply record the overall win / loss of clans vs inner sphere. After a decent chunk (so law of large number applies), either increase or decrease the number of creeps for better balance. (though the number and type would need to vary by map of course)

Lore-wise, Clan warriors have no use for C-Bills. Everything necessary is provided for them. Also, let us not burden PGI with developing AI for the tanks and planes. They have their hands full just for balancing Large Pulse Laser.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 June 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Balance Clan v IS using numbers, objectives, and code of conduct.

For a Clan team against an IS team, give the IS team extra mechs. Whether it be 12 v 10 (company v binary) or 8 v 5 (two lances v star) or what have you, there would need to be a ratio of Clan to IS that evens out the technology gap.

Also, PGI could introduce the Clans as a small group (5 or 10) put into matches between IS factions (12 v 12). This would mean if the IS teams work together the Clans would be radically outnumbered, but since the IS teams would still be hostile it could well work out nicely. Alternatively, PIG could have IS games not end once one side wins. Instead, they drop a Clan team (say, 5 mechs) into the already-finished match to clean up any survivors.

Objectives could help, too, if the Clans are forced to complete certain strenuous objectives and the IS team has easier ones. In a 12v12v10 Assault match the IS teams might only need to capture the enemy IS base, while the Clans might need to capture both enemy bases.

Finally, zellbrigen will gimp Clan forces while giving them a lot of flavor and making them a real challenge to play as. If enforced strictly it will make it harder for tech {Noble MechWarriors} to jump in and play Clan just for the OP toys, and will make encounters with Clanners fun and interesting (especially for people who are interested in RP, most especially Draconis Combine players).

[dario03]

Seems like it could get kind of complicated. And personally I've never been a fan of player vs player&Ai. Just doesn't seem right to me. And how well could that be balanced? A new pilot in a clan mech might have trouble hitting the ai units where as a experienced pilot would destroy them with ease. So do you adjust the amount of creeps by elo or just let the IS have the advantage at low elo and be disadvantaged at higher levels? Personally I would rather they just don't do a direct translation of clan mechs and make it so they are not overpowered. Maybe let IS use clan equipment and make the clan equipment different but not flat out better.

[Asakara]

http://mwomercs.com/...ch/page__st__20

From my post in that thread:

Here is something a bit different... Balance it with group size and elemental consumables.

Drop Setup:
Clanners drop as a star of 5 mechs vs an IS company of 12 mechs, but the clanners also get a star of elementals free (5 units each consisting of 5 battlesuits).

Useage:
Each clan mech carries a point of elementals as a single use consumable who hang on via handholds. Each clan pilot, at any time, can send their elemental point of 5 battlesuits to attack an enemy mech they have in LOS (like firing arty or an airstrike). The elementals will detach and stay as a group as they do 90 meter jumps to the target at around 32 kph.

Elementals In Combat:
They will fire their small lasers, each doing A damage every B seconds at all times they are within effective range. They fire their first SRM salvo using normal SRM2 parameters at 150m. They fire their second SRM salvo when they are at 75m to their target. If they reach 50 meters they will jump and swarm all over the target and each suit will do X damage every Y seconds from their claws and lasers. They will continue to do damage until their target is destroyed. They will stay with that target, even if destroyed for the entire battle, though they will continue to fire their lasers at any enemy within effective range.

Destroying Elementals:
Elementals take 10 damage each (so a single point carried by one clan mech requires 50 damage to destroy). They can be attacked at any time. They can be shot off the clanner mech before they are deployed as well as attacked as they advance. A friendly mech can shoot hostile elementals swarming an ally, but there is a danger that they will hit their friend instead.

Conclusion:
Seems like fun to me.

[aniviron]

Given the number of people on the forum who point out that everyone plays heavy or assault because heavies and assaults are just better in TT and thus impossible to balance in MWO, I have to assume PGI is going to go with the "Clan tech is just better, deal with it" philosophy in regards to the clans as well.

[Ranek Blackstone]

Since Lights can murder assaults despite being 1/3 the BV, if anything Omni's are going to have issues. Most, if not all Clan mechs mount XL engines, and you will NOT be able to get rid of it. The Timberwolf mounts Clan FF, ES, and an XL375 engine, all while having the same total armor values as the Orion. It'll be a speedy mech (as fast as the Dragon and QD), but it's not going to be all that hard to kill.

[FupDup]

Ranek Blackstone, on 18 June 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Since Lights can murder assaults despite being 1/3 the BV, if anything Omni's are going to have issues. Most, if not all Clan mechs mount XL engines, and you will NOT be able to get rid of it. The Timberwolf mounts Clan FF, ES, and an XL375 engine, all while having the same total armor values as the Orion. It'll be a speedy mech (as fast as the Dragon and QD), but it's not going to be all that hard to kill.

Clan XL requires both side torsos to be removed for death, and by the time you've lost both of them you're only good for capping anyways unless you're a Zombie Centurion.


As for the Mad Cat, that's a very terrible mech to judge the performance of Clan mechs in MWO by. Oh sure, it's iconic and everything in TT. But in MWO, our shots land where we want them to land. That thing is going to be a walking cockpit that will make the Catapult feel pity for it and may even have the ears as part of the side torsos. It's going to be dead-on-arrival and no level of power creep technology will be able to save it from convergence being used against its god-awful hitboxes.

Edited by FupDup, 18 June 2013 - 07:23 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

I am doubtful that any of the solutions will work. The cloest you might get:

1) Mixed Tech. Everyone can have Clan weapons and tech, so everyone can use OP weapons. This would raise the pace of the game, as mechs get more damage potential, but not realy more armor.

2) Clan Tech is nerfed to IS Levels.
Example: If the IS ER PPC deals 10 damage and 11 heat every 4 seconds, the Clan ER PPC will deal 10 damage and 11 heat every 5 seconds, to compensate for its lower weight and lower crit count.


Okay, realistically, what will happen is a big mess.
You already will probably run into problems due to player population - If not 50 % of the players want to be Clan and 50 % of the players want to be IS, then how will you run your CW? Maybe you can if you allow clans fighting clans and IS fighting IS.
But if you give the Clans superior tech, and don't give access to the IS to the same, you will almost certainly get a faction imbalance. There are people that will never play Clan for RP reasons, but I am not one of them, and I am sure that the crowd of 3PV players that PGI is trying to attract also has no strong RP objections to Clans.

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 18 June 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

Finally, zellbrigen will gimp Clan forces while giving them a lot of flavor and making them a real challenge to play as. If enforced strictly it will make it harder for tech {Noble MechWarriors} to jump in and play Clan just for the OP toys, and will make encounters with Clanners fun and interesting (especially for people who are interested in RP, most especially Draconis Combine players).

While this sounds interesting in theory, it ignores the "fictional reality" of the battletech universe. The Clans do not need to follow Zellbrigen if their enemy doesn't either.

[Gaan Cathal]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 June 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

You already will probably run into problems due to player population - If not 50 % of the players want to be Clan and 50 % of the players want to be IS, then how will you run your CW? Maybe you can if you allow clans fighting clans and IS fighting IS.
But if you give the Clans superior tech, and don't give access to the IS to the same, you will almost certainly get a faction imbalance. There are people that will never play Clan for RP reasons, but I am not one of them, and I am sure that the crowd of 3PV players that PGI is trying to attract also has no strong RP objections to Clans.

I actually don't forsee this being a huge issue unless there's a massive imbalance in numbers. You pick one of the conflict points, get dropped into a battle using the current matchmaker. Assume they balance by numbers, say (sake of argument, my expectation) 10 Clan vs 12 IS. If you win that adds a +1 to the conflict point's counter for your side, if not it doesn't affect it or adds a -1. Every unit of time (24hrs?) it is either conquered or not depending on total points. Not everyone in the same match even needs to be attacking the same point, though there may be faction-based constraints in place with mercs and lone wolves padding out the numbers. I'd not be surprised if Clan vs Inner Sphere was the only element in CW because it's the Clan Invasion in full swing. Clan vs Clan and IS vs IS matches will probably be an 'instant drop' scenario essentially identical to what we have with no CW influence and lacking whatever extra rewards CW play has to offer.

[Jukebox1986]

Creeps? This is not LOL, nor should it go anywhere near there.

I´d like to have Tanks, etc. implemented, but only in campaign or as base defense(best would be of course to drive em, but PGI mentioned that this wont come in the near future - and one promise has to be kept).

[FunkyFritter]

I can't see any lopsided setup working. When clans come either both sides have access to the tech or we're in for a ****storm of complaints the likes of which we've never seen.

[Ter Ushaka]

'Creeps' are already implemented in the game. Just monitor ingame chat for verification.

[xenoglyph]

I voted no because I want to see Clans before 2015.

[SubRyan]

Have numbers of mechs in Clan vs IS battles based on the map.

[Gaan Cathal]

Said it elsewhere, I'll say it here. 10v12