98 replies to this topic

[LordBraxton]

scouting? you mean seismic?

[Mercules]

LordBraxton, on 24 June 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

scouting? you mean seismic?

[Ursus_Spiritus]

Seismic is not scouting.


As far as I understand it, the only player that gets Spotting XP is the player that spotted a target and a teammate does damage to that mech as a result of the spotting. Not everyone on the team and or just for actually seeing the unit. Also the spotting is not just visual, you need a lock.

I could be wrong on this, if so please advise.

If not, then usually scouts - i.e. fast mechs are the first to make contact and report. That means USING THE "R" Key for those that seem deficient in that aspect.
This is of course assuming that ECM is not part of the equation and then it would be wise for a scout mech to cary TAG, to negate ECM and then high light the target for teammates thus resulting in incoming fire = Spotting bonus.

Which means LIGHT mechs can/do have incentive if the pilot(s) is/are not A: a Chicken, B: Green C: using 'R' key D: are smart about NOT running into contacts head on.

Edited by 8100d 5p4tt3r, 24 June 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[hammerreborn]

8100d 5p4tt3r, on 24 June 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Seismic is not scouting.


As far as I understand it, the only player that gets Spotting XP is the player that spotted a target and a teammate does damage to that mech as a result of the spotting. Not everyone on the team and or just for actually seeing the unit. Also the spotting is not just visual, you need a lock.

I could be wrong on this, if so please advise.

If not, then usually scouts - i.e. fast mechs are the first to make contact and report. That means USING THE "R" Key for those that seem deficient in that aspect.
This is of course assuming that ECM is not part of the equation and then it would be wise for a scout mech to cary TAG, to negate ECM and then high light the target for teammates thus resulting in incoming fire = Spotting bonus.

Which means LIGHT mechs can/do have incentive if the pilot(s) is/are not A: a Chicken, B: Green C: using 'R' key D: are smart about NOT running into contacts head on.

Spotting bonus goes to whatever the closest mech is that is currently locking on the target as far as I'm aware.

Therefore, a scout TAGging a target at 750 for LRM boats would not get a spotting bonus in frozen city if a fatlas hiding on the other side of the ridge also targets based on your data and the lrms hit (the scout would still get the TAG bonus).

Spotting bonuses are completely random, sometimes you get them, sometimes you don't. EIther way, they aren't a very reliable source of income anyways compared to damage.

Edited by hammerreborn, 24 June 2013 - 09:36 AM.

[Ursus_Spiritus]

hammerreborn, on 24 June 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

Spotting bonus goes to whatever the closest mech is that is currently locking on the target as far as I'm aware.

Therefore, a scout TAGging a target at 750 for LRM boats would not get a spotting bonus in frozen city if a fatlas hiding on the other side of the ridge also targets based on your data and the lrms hit (the scout would still get the TAG bonus).

Spotting bonuses are completely random, sometimes you get them, sometimes you don't. EIther way, they aren't a very reliable source of income anyways compared to damage.

I am not saying it is reliable source. I am speaking from experience though as I play a medium scout and often make contact before the rest of my team. I agree that it isn't consistent which does suck.

[Whompity]

I play scout nearly 100% of the time. The first chat I send is generally always "scouting left" or "scouting lower" or whatever. Then, say on a map like alpine, I always report back what I see. Sometimes they listen, often they don't. It's not a very forgiving job, as sometimes you run smack dab into a large enemy force...

(I was playing RCN and scouted lower... I swear EVERY corner I turned had a medium or larger behind it. I ran past each one, but took hits on the way to the next corner... rinse, repeat, but I digress...)

Worse is when you run into another PAIR of enemy scouts.

All said, I find scouting generally fun, probably helpful, and definitely dangerous. I wish there were better rewards for it.

I'm thinking I might just try to take "command" some time and see if I can direct that way. At the very least, it would be nice, as a scout, to drop markers on the commander map telling people where things are headed.

Edited by Olivia Maybach, 24 June 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[Mercules]

Olivia Maybach, on 24 June 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

I'm thinking I might just try to take "command" some time and see if I can direct that way. At the very least, it would be nice, as a scout, to drop markers on the commander map telling people where things are headed.

I tried this once. The issue is that while going into the Commander map to put those markers in you can not control your mech. In a fast light mech that just doesn't work. Either you have to stop, which you should never do if you can help it, or you have to run a straight line for a short bit while you access the map, which is almost as bad as stopping.

It works best if you are on voice with at least one other player who is sitting back maybe launching LRMs or something where they can take your up to date information as you tell them, and plug it into the map for the other people. I really wish we had a commander role who can guide the battle without being in a specific mech.

[Whompity]

I agree voice would be the best way to relay the information, given the points you outline.

[Daemir]

What is the need to scout? The few maps where it would make any sense are the maps where an assault standing a bit to the side will "scout" any flank with seismic anyway. Maps are too small, predictable and game modes total junk for scouting. If you aren't on voice comms with your team it's also even more utterly useless. Nobody is going to react to what you maybe typed in a hurry while dodging missiles and skillboat snipes.

You can't sneak into anywhere, since there's no approaches that aren't in LoS that the enemy team can't detect easily and safely with seismic. Then you peek out of a cave, just to stare down the barrels of that 6 ppc stalker that had been standing idle, seeing you move forward with his seismic sensor and then he presses the Button and you get to spectate. There is no gameplay in it.

If maps were bigger, start locations randomized, objectives or missions that actually made sense, able to SELECT WHAT MAP WE DROP IN to adjust loadout and so on, scouting might make sense. As it is now, it doesn't make sense. You are just a quick backstabber or you embrace the meta and try fit those dual PPCs on raven or that ERPPC to that spider. Your only defense is speed, and that doesn't get you far once you meet any alpha boat with the slightest hint of aim. All weapons landing in a pinpoint location is such bull in a game like this. That 6 ppc alpha would be far less scary if some of the shots might even miss a small target, while the others hit different parts in a single salvo.

[Breeze]

I love scouting, and that's my preferred role in the game. Why? Because I'm pretty good at running away and shockingly bad at hitting the broad side of a barn.

The lack of tangible rewards is unsettling, but it's something that True Scouts have to resign themselves to. Once you've gotten over that (immense) hurdle, it can be some of the most exciting time a player can have.

I remember:

1) (Conquest) Stealthily swinging around the lower ravine of Frozen City Night (C5/D5), making my way towards the Gamma, when I spotted a nest of enemy mechs camping at Epsilon. Poking my little Raven nose around the side of a hill, I tagged and spotted the whole lot of them, and watched the LRMs rain down upon them.

2) (Conquest) My raven had been legged in Canyon Network, and to keep myself useful, went limping towards Epsilon when an enemy Blackjack stumbled on me. Poor fellow must have thought I was feeble and useless (which I practically was) and stood still firing his weapons at me. He died from my repeated PPC blasts, and LRMs coming in my on TAG.

3) (Conquest) All was quiet in Alpine Peaks, with an occasional enemy blip appearing and disappearing. Most of the team moved into the mountain at G9 whilst other fast movers went to cap. I patrolled the lower edge of Kappa (L9/L10) when the enemy force started pushing through. Two enterprising enemy mechs (a Jenner and an Awesome) must have thought I was a lone target (which I was!) and chased me all around that lower edge of the map. It took me about 7-8 mins of evasive movement and providing an enticing target, to kite them past Kappa and into my bulk of my team. My one Raven rendered two full mechs irrelevant in that game, which meant my other 7 team mates could clean up the remaining 6 enemies. Those two mechs were then pounced upon by my team. I sadly died for my part in that game.

[RGoulet]

its in the seismic sensor, so in your HUD

[Sephlock]

8100d 5p4tt3r, on 24 June 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Seismic is not scouting.

You mean UAV ?

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

simplified answer, because we're playing a game, not fighting a war. And good tactics to some doesn't translate into good game fun to others. Simple enemy location scouting because that's all we know, coupled with the fact that you're in a real fast robot, so you can strike with mobility, even though you lack any real strength. So you can hit the rear, or annoy others into attacking you, or hit their base, but there's so much more that could be done if we defined some limited but effective role requirements.

We're getting 1/3rd effectiveness from our mech tactics, and while a lot of it centers around bad communication, a lot of people just are not tactically oriented. Don't have the 3D knowledge.

[Thejusttired]

Where the scouting is?? I can tell you.. it drowned in bad game design and gamemode decisions.

Lights are tied to those magical squares for the winzz ya knowzz... to be all that Battletechy as the whole game.. "irony off"

Edited by Thejusttired, 30 June 2013 - 07:49 AM.

[Thejusttired]

Breeze, on 26 June 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

I love scouting, and that's my preferred role in the game. Why? Because I'm pretty good at running away and shockingly bad at hitting the broad side of a barn.

The lack of tangible rewards is unsettling, but it's something that True Scouts have to resign themselves to. Once you've gotten over that (immense) hurdle, it can be some of the most exciting time a player can have.

I remember:

1) (Conquest) Stealthily swinging around the lower ravine of Frozen City Night (C5/D5), making my way towards the Gamma, when I spotted a nest of enemy mechs camping at Epsilon. Poking my little Raven nose around the side of a hill, I tagged and spotted the whole lot of them, and watched the LRMs rain down upon them.

2) (Conquest) My raven had been legged in Canyon Network, and to keep myself useful, went limping towards Epsilon when an enemy Blackjack stumbled on me. Poor fellow must have thought I was feeble and useless (which I practically was) and stood still firing his weapons at me. He died from my repeated PPC blasts, and LRMs coming in my on TAG.

3) (Conquest) All was quiet in Alpine Peaks, with an occasional enemy blip appearing and disappearing. Most of the team moved into the mountain at G9 whilst other fast movers went to cap. I patrolled the lower edge of Kappa (L9/L10) when the enemy force started pushing through. Two enterprising enemy mechs (a Jenner and an Awesome) must have thought I was a lone target (which I was!) and chased me all around that lower edge of the map. It took me about 7-8 mins of evasive movement and providing an enticing target, to kite them past Kappa and into my bulk of my team. My one Raven rendered two full mechs irrelevant in that game, which meant my other 7 team mates could clean up the remaining 6 enemies. Those two mechs were then pounced upon by my team. I sadly died for my part in that game.

Thank god there is players like you that are not utterly ******** squarehuggers... i might eventually come back to active playing when PGI irons out that "non-existent immersion" issue...

[C E Dwyer]

Training Instructor, on 20 June 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Lights and mediums are mostly paralyzed by their fear of being crippled by one lucky, or skillful, alpha from some sniper.

So they hide behind the assault mechs for most of the match, forcing the assault to guess where the best place to push is.

It really doesn't help that every guide tells them to do exactly this, because of the threat of getting obliterated instantly for scouting.

It's leading to terrible matches for assaults.

There is zero incentive for a light or fast medium to put itself in danger so that a bunch of missile boat assaults can farm damage cash and xp at this stage, far better for them to hang back wait until contact and then harass, only case against this is being able to sneak around the flank to land a cap and split the other team , however this only works if A the other team do split and the team its on don't fanny around leaving the 'scout' an easy picking

[Renaissance]

I've run into the opposite, which isn't to say I disagree with the OP, I just think the game mechanics at this point are whacked on the very fundamental levels in which MWO is designed to operate. Several have pointed some of them out.

Problem A: We know the maps by now. We do. If we play the same handful of maps every single time for weeks or months on end, we know exactly how they are set up. We know which nooks and crannies allow us passage and which do not. We know which ones are seldomly scouted, and which ones are. We know exactly where the enemy spawns and where exactly the routes to their base and your own are. We know all the terrain, we know all the common set-up points. We know where LRM boats tend to hide on which specific maps.

The Result: There really isn't a strong need for scouts anymore. We have become so drilled and practiced and played for so long that we tend to inherently know or at least reliably predict where the enemy is and when they'll get there. Scouts as a result become easy pickings -- the lambs to the slaughter. Or they become harassers and ankle-biters. Some of them tag, some of them do not. Some of them spot. Some of them do not. I am not saying scouting is completely useless, since any LRM boat loves a good spotter... but it's nowhere near as useful as they are supposed to be in a BattleTech game.

Problem B: High-damage Alphas. I've brought this point up several times. But it bears repeating. There's a 6 PPC Stalker with weapon convergence that can pick you off halfway across the map if you're in a spider or jenner. Sometimes it can kill you outright. Sometimes it will simply tear off your armor completely or cripple you by taking off a limb. There are skilled players that concentrate on refining this tactic. That 6 PPC stalker is more valuable to their team than you are to yours in your scout if you simply end up dead in one or two alpha strikes. You become a liability, not an asset.

The Result: Gameplay now mostly consists of who runs the most high-damage alpha builds. AC20 Jagers, 6 PPC Stalkers, LRM boats that consistently hit the center torso. Take your pick, it's all about who can do the most damage at once, not who can do the most sustained damage over time. Scouts do not take much punishment before dying. AC40 Jagers will destroy or cripple them outright. Scouts are reluctant to commit to their job because of this. I can't say I blame them. Where's the fun in getting one-shot by a Jagerbomb or a 6 PPC Stalker within the first 3 minutes of a match?

Problem C: Spotting bonuses are random -- as previously mentioned any mech can get them and it can be entirely random. If you hit the R key, you might lock onto something you weren't intending on -- and someone else on your team will launch missiles. You can be in a Jenner or a Spider. You can be in an Atlas or a Stalker. It doesn't matter. Scouting bonuses to encourage people to play scouts are... not consistently given, and it's not the other player's fault. The mechanics are just broken like that.


The Result: There's no real incentive to scouting as compared to boating a massive high-damage alpha build. Playing a Jagerbomb is more useful to your team, and it will consistently grant you more c-bills and xp through raw damage dealt and players killed. It's also consistently easier.

All of this combined is what we have now. Scouts find themselves in the unemployment line unless they're willing to 're-train' to be more useful. Like playing cheese build. It's better for them because they'll make more money, and even though they might want their role to consist of scouting in this game... we've been playing the same maps for so long we just know where people are by now.

Btw, if someone really wants to scout -- just buy and upgrade the UAV consumables. And you don't even need to be a light to do it. Congratulations, your UAV consumable is more useful than using player skill at piloting and scouting.

My heart goes out to you scouts, it really does. Maybe PGI will know what to do with your role in the future. I certainly hope so.

[Sharknoms]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 21 June 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Once people start to figure out the awesomeness that is the UAV.

[AimRobot]

Lights role is this.