132 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

FERAL TIGER, on 21 June 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

most people here seem to hat the QDW Does the speed not add to it's ability at all? Wouldn't it be a good capper/skirmisher?

Speed is important... but not the end all (because, you will need tonnage to fit weapons). It fits perfectly with the "overweight medium" that the Dragons currently fall under.

Koniving, on 21 June 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Most quickdraws I've seen however are not going faster than 70 kph. Until they start going 92 or more kph they won't have much of a chance, Quickdraws are not meant for brawling. They have the same armor values as the Dragon.

I wouldn't say speed is that important outside of the bare minimum of a 300 engine (STD or XL). Quickdraws are really not meant for brawling, but if they have to, they can. What you MUST do with a Quickdraw is to use JJs to manipulate the damage intake from your mech from your torso to your legs...

The thing about speed is that it kinda gets overrated once you start brawling. What makes more sense is to use the fact that you have more armor than your typical medium.. so you must execute the same kind of stuff a medium typically does. The difference is that it can probably fight against something bigger than it in the same weight class once in while... but that's a bad risk most of the time.

InRev, on 21 June 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

This mech keeps on finding ways to annoy me. Put an LRM20 and an LRM10 in the left torso. Physical tubes show a 10-pack and a 5-pack. Fine, 2 volleys works for me.

Pull the trigger . . .

A volley of 15, followed by 3 more volleys of 5.

Every time I try to rearrange the launchers they reset. ARGH.

Are you kidding me with this mech?

This mech.. is simply not a viable LRM boat. If you can make it a workable SRM boat, you would be better off.

[Angel of Annihilation]

The more I follow this thread, the more amazed I am at all the negativity on a mech I am finding to be easily one of my top performers. I just don't get it.

I keep looking at my 5K and 4H and seriously wonder how people can find them lacking in firepower, survivability, manuverability or speed because they are an excellent combination of all that in one package. Sure there are a few negatives but aside from it being a little bit oversized, there really aren't any major flaws.

Just a few matches ago I ended up using my JJ to jump from ledge to ledge on Forest Colony, constantly blasting dual PPCs and Quad lasers into enemy mechs below me, killing several. Another match I managed to use my JJs to clear a ridgeline on the Tormoline Desert and get behind an Altas which I cored in something like 3 volleys. Then just a bit later in the same match I preceeded to out circle another Atlas and killed him. Taking out both resulting in almost no damage to my QD. Another match I mostly soloed (they had taken some light damage from my teammates) and won again both an Atlas and a Stalker. Additionally in 70% of my matches I am finding myself ranked in the top 2 or 3 of my team and alot of those times I am ranked one and it is not uncommon for be to be ranked one by a large margin.

The point here is either I am just really good piloting QDs or they don't suck. I think the real issue is there are alot of people who just don't understand the QD and/or build them poorly. Guess it just isn't a good mech for everyone.

However, I guess this is a good thing. If everyone continues to think they suck, then everyone will underestimate me when I am piloting them hehe.

[LtPoncho]

General Taskeen, on 20 June 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

Tall as an Assault Mech. No thanks, I'll pass on Quickdraw Meta.

It's hilarious how big it is - not sure why you can see eye to eye with an Atlas.

Edited by LtPoncho, 21 June 2013 - 11:32 PM.

[NextGame]

quickdraw can be fun, but you need to play it with lrms instead of srms at the moment

[SgtMagor]

QD is an excellent support mech, wing with someone, or work together with your lance and it will perform well.

Edited by SgtMagor, 22 June 2013 - 03:17 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Viktor Drake, on 21 June 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

The more I follow this thread, the more amazed I am at all the negativity on a mech I am finding to be easily one of my top performers. I just don't get it.

I keep looking at my 5K and 4H and seriously wonder how people can find them lacking in firepower, survivability, manuverability or speed because they are an excellent combination of all that in one package. Sure there are a few negatives but aside from it being a little bit oversized, there really aren't any major flaws.

Just a few matches ago I ended up using my JJ to jump from ledge to ledge on Forest Colony, constantly blasting dual PPCs and Quad lasers into enemy mechs below me, killing several. Another match I managed to use my JJs to clear a ridgeline on the Tormoline Desert and get behind an Altas which I cored in something like 3 volleys. Then just a bit later in the same match I preceeded to out circle another Atlas and killed him. Taking out both resulting in almost no damage to my QD. Another match I mostly soloed (they had taken some light damage from my teammates) and won again both an Atlas and a Stalker. Additionally in 70% of my matches I am finding myself ranked in the top 2 or 3 of my team and alot of those times I am ranked one and it is not uncommon for be to be ranked one by a large margin.

The point here is either I am just really good piloting QDs or they don't suck. I think the real issue is there are alot of people who just don't understand the QD and/or build them poorly. Guess it just isn't a good mech for everyone.

However, I guess this is a good thing. If everyone continues to think they suck, then everyone will underestimate me when I am piloting them hehe.

Well, the size IS annoying. But I agree pretty much with everything else.

Truth is, it seems for many SmurfyWarriors out here, paper Alpha and DPS are the only measures of a Mech. Hence if they cannot easily min/max FOTM a Mech it has to be a Bad. Which is why when SmurfyWarriors get the FOTM nerfed, they are lost because they only build to abuse Meta, not to learn how to actually adapt and play the game.

Also if they cannot play a chassis well, then it HAS to be a Bad. And anyone else who uses it, is handicapping their team, even if they get 10,000 damage and 9 kill and 10 assists per match.

[InRev]

My problem with the Quickdraw has been the opposite. I really like what I can do with it on paper. Theoretically, I can do fast LRM 35 support, or PPCs and Streaks, or SRMs to the gills, etc etc.

But once I actually drop in it, its flaws come out. It can't LRM due to how the tubes work. It's impossible to avoid fire in it, so skirmishing is out. The arms are too low and even the chest energy hardpoints are deceptively low, due to the fact that the thing's cockpit is so high mounted on the head. I've hit dirt more than I like. That rules out hill-humping.

Worst of all, though, it just feels sluggish. Again, this is a problem caused by the size because the head is so high up that perception of speed is borked but I feel like I'm going 64 when I'm going 87. It sounds stupid, but it just doesn't feel right when I play it, and that's damning. If other people enjoy it, and do well in it, felicitaciones.

I'm just very disappointed that I cannot make it work because it could have been perfect but it has been marred by silly, silly developer choices (missile tubes, size, etc)

[oldradagast]

Mudhutwarrior, on 21 June 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

I think you have to respect before you buy. I havent seen anything in them for me to want one. They are silly looking too. With the arms splayed out like they are I think drunk dude looking for a barfight and losing quickly.

This is very true. I didn't really notice that until the other day, but they do look sort of drunk. The Commando has a similar setup, but they are so small it's not as obvious.

[Bishop Steiner]

InRev, on 22 June 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

My problem with the Quickdraw has been the opposite. I really like what I can do with it on paper. Theoretically, I can do fast LRM 35 support, or PPCs and Streaks, or SRMs to the gills, etc etc.

But once I actually drop in it, its flaws come out. It can't LRM due to how the tubes work. It's impossible to avoid fire in it, so skirmishing is out. The arms are too low and even the chest energy hardpoints are deceptively low, due to the fact that the thing's cockpit is so high mounted on the head. I've hit dirt more than I like. That rules out hill-humping.

Worst of all, though, it just feels sluggish. Again, this is a problem caused by the size because the head is so high up that perception of speed is borked but I feel like I'm going 64 when I'm going 87. It sounds stupid, but it just doesn't feel right when I play it, and that's damning. If other people enjoy it, and do well in it, felicitaciones.

I'm just very disappointed that I cannot make it work because it could have been perfect but it has been marred by silly, silly developer choices (missile tubes, size, etc)

totally agree with it feeling sluggish. I will say LRMs have not been my favorite with it, but I have a LRM10/5 combo in the LT, and a LRM10 in the CT backed by a RT TAG on my H and have done pretty well with it, even if it certainly is nowhere near the boat my Catapult or Jagermech-A are. But then, it's not meant to be. It's still a Skirmisher, so I use the LRMs on it the way I do on my CN9-D, to soften up and confuse the opponents in support of my lance. It's an oversized Medium. So I drive it like one, avoiding direct confrontation when possible, and Missile sniping and or laser strafing as the opportunity arises.

It will NEVER be effective as a boat though.

[Jetfire]

I love the QD. It is a support mech though so you have to play it like one. I really like to run it in a fast medium pack of 2-3 mechs and at that point you can seriously suprise people and rip apart mechs that stray too far from the group. You have to make use of the speed though.

[Wintersdark]

Koniving, on 21 June 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Most quickdraws I've seen however are not going faster than 70 kph. Until they start going 92 or more kph they won't have much of a chance, Quickdraws are not meant for brawling. They have the same armor values as the Dragon.

Hit and runs. Fast attacks. Anti-light, anti-medium. In packs of 2 or more they'd make great heavy scouts or attack packs.

Other than length (thickness), the width of a Quickdraw and a Centurion is almost identical. Quickdraw and Dragon are identical in size (and animation). So I don't see what's so horrendous about its size. The only place it's bigger than any other heavy mech is its head, which is fat and wide. I kid you not you can probably fit one of the cars on River City inside of it.

I've been saying from the get go that good Quickdraw builds are essentially the same as good Dragon builds. You must move fast. Period. The smallest engine I use in one is a 325, and I prefer the 350 - 350 allows FF builds, because of how many slots you can save by cramming 4 DHS into the engine.

As you said, fast quickdraws (in the neighborhood of 100kph) are exceptionally good light/medium hunters. Fast and twisty enough to keep up with them, and twitchy enough to keep them at least in their arm sights. The G is particularly handy when it's torso is crammed full of SRM's and supported with arm lasers.

The Quickdraw does have a torso length advantage over the Dragon, though. Turned sideways, you're hitting arms unlike the Dragon's huge, jutting center torso, and this is a definite advantage. the side torsos are a good size, they're a bit wide but very short. Unlike the Jag, they cannot readily be shot from the side which is pretty important.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

totally agree with it feeling sluggish. I will say LRMs have not been my favorite with it, but I have a LRM10/5 combo in the LT, and a LRM10 in the CT backed by a RT TAG on my H and have done pretty well with it, even if it certainly is nowhere near the boat my Catapult or Jagermech-A are. But then, it's not meant to be. It's still a Skirmisher, so I use the LRMs on it the way I do on my CN9-D, to soften up and confuse the opponents in support of my lance. It's an oversized Medium. So I drive it like one, avoiding direct confrontation when possible, and Missile sniping and or laser strafing as the opportunity arises.

It will NEVER be effective as a boat though.

Agreed.

I found a single LRM10 rack on my Flame to be extremely effective as well - there's many uses for LRM's aside from long range LRM support boating. When every/most mechs on a team sport even some LRM's, you can add weight of fire for AMS saturation, you can push people into cover as they can't tell whether you're firing a volley of 70 LRM's or 10. They do reasonable enough damage on their own as an individual weapon system, comparable to other weapons (barring substantial AMS anyways), and are very handy to hurf into a brawl while you can't draw a safe line of fire with direct fire weapons.

Too often, people fall into a one-dimensional line of thinking with LRM's; that if they have any, they need to be a primary weapon system and fired indirectly from long ranges.

[Sephlock]

^ I have found the same, but even one enemy AMS HURTS, and dual AMS = no joy for you .

[Bishop Steiner]

Sephlock, on 22 June 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

^ I have found the same, but even one enemy AMS HURTS, and dual AMS = no joy for you .

one good thing I find..... especially with dual AMS... few people pack more than a ton of ammo for the picnic. So even my "ineffective" LRMS tend to drain it fast. And then, bye- bye umbrella. And some matches, they end up dead weight (happens with my boats too, especially since using "R" is an arcane art, apparently.). Happens with every weapon system and chassis..... sometimes you are the windshield, some days you are the bug.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

one good thing I find..... especially with dual AMS... few people pack more than a ton of ammo for the picnic. So even my "ineffective" LRMS tend to drain it fast. And then, bye- bye umbrella. And some matches, they end up dead weight (happens with my boats too, especially since using "R" is an arcane art, apparently.). Happens with every weapon system and chassis..... sometimes you are the windshield, some days you are the bug.

Yup. Even so, one's LRM rack is rarely dead weight. Even if you do no damage with it, you can use it to good effect. Few people will ignore the "INCOMING MISSILES" warning - so you can often push people into cover to reduce the numbers of foes firing at you (or at other allies) just by targetting and lobbing missiles fruitlessly against one player while you actually engage another.

Also, you can use the LRM rack as a scout. Direct fire them over the tops of hills, watch for the tracer AMS rounds to indicate where your foes are hiding. Less effective for LRM boats, but when your LRM rack is a secondary weapon, it's quite handy. I use mine frequently to telegraph my foes movements.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Wintersdark, on 22 June 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

I've been saying from the get go that good Quickdraw builds are essentially the same as good Dragon builds. You must move fast. Period. The smallest engine I use in one is a 325, and I prefer the 350 - 350 allows FF builds, because of how many slots you can save by cramming 4 DHS into the engine.

As you said, fast quickdraws (in the neighborhood of 100kph) are exceptionally good light/medium hunters. Fast and twisty enough to keep up with them, and twitchy enough to keep them at least in their arm sights. The G is particularly handy when it's torso is crammed full of SRM's and supported with arm lasers.

The Quickdraw does have a torso length advantage over the Dragon, though. Turned sideways, you're hitting arms unlike the Dragon's huge, jutting center torso, and this is a definite advantage. the side torsos are a good size, they're a bit wide but very short. Unlike the Jag, they cannot readily be shot from the side which is pretty important.

Disagree. I almost never build mechs for speed because doing so typically means you give up alot in firepower and this is especially so with the QD. My 5K even dropped a few kp/h with a 280XL so I could shoe horn in the PPCs, Quad MLs and 17 DHS in it to keep it cool.

Personnally I feel that it is the builds centering around the big. fast engine that are giving the QD such a negative reputation in most cases. I mean there is no way in hell I could put out the damage numbers I am accomplishing with so much tonnage tied up in the Engine, even a large XL. Throw in a big XL and it is not hard to end up with a heavy mech that has less firepower than a Jenner that is much slower and a bigger target.

InRev, on 22 June 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

My problem with the Quickdraw has been the opposite. I really like what I can do with it on paper. Theoretically, I can do fast LRM 35 support, or PPCs and Streaks, or SRMs to the gills, etc etc.

But once I actually drop in it, its flaws come out. It can't LRM due to how the tubes work. It's impossible to avoid fire in it, so skirmishing is out. The arms are too low and even the chest energy hardpoints are deceptively low, due to the fact that the thing's cockpit is so high mounted on the head. I've hit dirt more than I like. That rules out hill-humping.

Worst of all, though, it just feels sluggish. Again, this is a problem caused by the size because the head is so high up that perception of speed is borked but I feel like I'm going 64 when I'm going 87. It sounds stupid, but it just doesn't feel right when I play it, and that's damning. If other people enjoy it, and do well in it, felicitaciones.

I'm just very disappointed that I cannot make it work because it could have been perfect but it has been marred by silly, silly developer choices (missile tubes, size, etc)

I think the key here is the part about "you" not being able to make it work not so much those "silly, silly developer choices". That's not a personal attack but rather a symptom of the overall reason why the QD is getting a negative rep. People focus on the fact that its hardpoints aren't at the shoulder like the Jagermechs or that it is a few meters taller than it should be. These aren't flaws, they are just qualities of the mech. I mean I could say that the fact that Stalkers don't have fully articluated arms is a "Flaw" but it is really not a flaw because the mech is effective without them.

Now I will admit that I can see a slight "Flaw" from a LRM users presective but sluggish it is not. Last match I got 3 Kills. 2 Assists and about 550 damage and I got this by ducking in and out of the battlefield using my 81 kp/h to go to first one end of the ridge, then dart back to the otherside to peek out again. In one case I saw one of my teammates engaging a solo enemy so I rushed over about 500-600m to assist. I came around a ridgeline, assisted him and we got the kill. Just then 3 enemy mechs popped out about 300m away. Knowing I couldn't wistand that sort of firepower, I proceed exit stage right, easily jumped over the ridgeline I came around and put a nice big hill between the enemy and me. The Cataphract I assisted wasn't so lucky because he wasn't a 3D with JJs and all he could do was run. I also do this all the time, i.e. use my JJs to escape or to approach enemy mechs from angles they aren't expecting. This in turn limits the amount of damage I recieve by a huge amount.

The key with the QD is you have to use all your mobility options, not just rely on speed. Also peception or not, your still travelling at 81 kp/h stock and for a mech that can mount over 400 armor, that isn't slow.

Also I will finish with saying, if you keep and open mind and play it to its strengths rather try picking it apart and trying to force it to conform to your wishes and desires of what you "Think" it should be like, your likely to have much more success.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 22 June 2013 - 08:59 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Viktor Drake, on 22 June 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Disagree. I almost never build mechs for speed because doing so typically means you give up alot in firepower and this is especially so with the QD. My 5K even dropped a few kp/h with a 280XL so I could shoe horn in the PPCs, Quad MLs and 17 DHS in it to keep it cool.

Personnally I feel that it is the builds centering around the big. fast engine that are giving the QD such a negative reputation in most cases. I mean there is no way in hell I could put out the damage numbers I am accomplishing with so much tonnage tied up in the Engine, even a large XL. Throw in a big XL and it is not hard to end up with a heavy mech that has less firepower than a Jenner that is much slower and a bigger target.

QKD-5K

2xPPC 4XML, XL325, only 16 DHS, but I've found that works pretty well. 96.5kph makes a big difference when fighting fast mechs and getting from/to cover.

81kph mechs don't "dart" anywhere

[InRev]

I don't deny any of the arguments regarding personal taste and the Quickdraw, but a lot of them are very similar to Soy's defense of the Awesome. He does exceptionally well in it despite of its flaws, rather than because of its virtues. It doesn't mean it's a good mech, but rather it means that Soy is a good Awesome pilot. It's a subtle but important distinction.

The Quickdraw could and should be better. A little size scaling and proper attention to missile tubes would make a world of difference. They're tiny changes that are pure improvement without compromising the identity of the mech, and would hardly make it OP, so I'm surprised the already existing QD fans aren't jumping all over them. As of now, however, it's basically a niche machine while a few changes could make it a very viable workhorse. Maybe I am being demanding, but I just think that all mechs should be easy to make viable and shouldn't require an exceptional pilot specific to the chassis to make it competitive. Pilot skill should push it over the top, not be a requirement for its usability.

Has that cleared up my stance? I know it might seem convoluted.

[One Medic Army]

Wintersdark, on 22 June 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

QKD-5K

2xPPC 4XML, XL325, only 16 DHS, but I've found that works pretty well. 96.5kph makes a big difference when fighting fast mechs and getting from/to cover.

81kph mechs don't "dart" anywhere

I run mine with same weapons and a 350XL, 14DHS.
Endo/Ferro/full armor

Losing 2-3 1.4DHS isn't actually that big of a deal so long as you have good heat management skills. I tend to use only the lasers or PPCs unless I have a good shot, and with the PPCs I'll take the extra second to aim it well.

[Wintersdark]

One Medic Army, on 22 June 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

I run mine with same weapons and a 350XL, 14DHS.
Endo/Ferro/full armor

Losing 2-3 1.4DHS isn't actually that big of a deal so long as you have good heat management skills. I tend to use only the lasers or PPCs unless I have a good shot, and with the PPCs I'll take the extra second to aim it well.

Absolutely. Speed is in my experience a good trade for a minor amount of dissipation (Time to overheat is only marginally affected by a DHS or two) because the speed allows me to get to cover faster - take less damage, reposition faster, and cool while doing so.

The only reason my K has the 325 right now is that I'm also levelling a G with my 350, and I couldn't be bothered to keep switching engine back and forth

As I said previously in the thread, I'm a big fan of the 350 because the extra integral sinks allow you to bring FF on board, which helps to bring your armor back up to full.

InRev, on 22 June 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

I don't deny any of the arguments regarding personal taste and the Quickdraw, but a lot of them are very similar to Soy's defense of the Awesome. He does exceptionally well in it despite of its flaws, rather than because of its virtues. It doesn't mean it's a good mech, but rather it means that Soy is a good Awesome pilot. It's a subtle but important distinction.

The Quickdraw could and should be better. A little size scaling and proper attention to missile tubes would make a world of difference. They're tiny changes that are pure improvement without compromising the identity of the mech, and would hardly make it OP, so I'm surprised the already existing QD fans aren't jumping all over them. As of now, however, it's basically a niche machine while a few changes could make it a very viable workhorse. Maybe I am being demanding, but I just think that all mechs should be easy to make viable and shouldn't require an exceptional pilot specific to the chassis to make it competitive. Pilot skill should push it over the top, not be a requirement for its usability.

Has that cleared up my stance? I know it might seem convoluted.

I understood you from the start, but yeah. The size issue is what it is, and it won't change I don't think.

The tubes, however, is clearly a bug (that the Highlander shares/shared), and I do hope it gets fixed. Probably won't happen till UI 2.0, however. I'm fine with that though, so long as missile launcher/tube assignment gets fixed and stays fixed. It's problematic currently, but not a major deal.

Edited by Wintersdark, 22 June 2013 - 11:18 AM.