43 replies to this topic

[DivineEvil]

Overall, it's not a tendency as a such, but a benefit you're getting while implementing targeting enchancement. Artemis does increase focus of the LRMs when they're fired on direct LOS. TAG also makes them more stacked, and you'd never get a notion of anyone applying TAG or NARC on yourself unless you directly see this happening.

Just to make things clear to author, Missiles doesn't really care that much about what side you're "catching" them with. They follow a high trajectory based on height difference between shooter and target (superior targets makes LRM ascend steep and land low, inferior targets makes them ascend low and fall steep). After reaching landing range about 200 meters form target, they randomly choosing the hit location based on bonuses provided with aforementioned accuracy equipment. If these bonuses are provided, LRM do tend to target CT more frequently. If they encounter a different location on the way then they will hit it. When you have no bonuses on LRM accuracy, no matter how many LRM you have packed, they will hit all over the place and ocassionaly miss whatsoever.

All you need to understand is that LRM is balanced around that system. It is not that great weapon on it's own, DPS rating is quite bad, accuracy is inferior even to SRMs, they both generate a significant heat and relies on ammunition. Their strength not focused around the idea of shooting without aim, but their potential is unveiled when accuracy bonuses are provided, and this is a team effort. And when you have some teammates that can help you use this potential, LRMs just tear everything apart. It's a weapon with better heat efficiency than Energy weapons and better ammo Damage-per-Ton ratio than Ballistics and have the mass/slot bandwigth between the two. But without any bonuses provided, LRM is nothing but an annoying fireworks.

So there's nothing wrong balance-wise with them, especially considering that majority of Ballistic and Energy weapons has point-precise accuracy.

[DanielZX]

Easy to test. Build heavy LRM boat, for example 60lrms and go to the testing grounds. Fire them at any mech you will see. As a result it is enough to launch only 2 volleys to kill ANY mech standing still in the open space. Why? - Because 99% of LRMS will hit their center torso regarding on your position or movement speed. IMO LRM damage even could be buffed a little, for example to 2.0 dmg, but LRMS hits should spread all over the target mech. So I agree with TS.

[DivineEvil]

Zin, on 24 June 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

Easy to test. Build heavy LRM boat, for example 60lrms and go to the testing grounds. Fire them at any mech you will see. As a result it is enough to launch only 2 volleys to kill ANY mech standing still in the open space. Why? - Because 99% of LRMS will hit their center torso regarding on your position or movement speed. IMO LRM damage even could be buffed a little, for example to 2.0 dmg, but LRMS hits should spread all over the target mech. So I agree with TS.

1.) All mechs in TG are stock versions. Rarely any of them have full armor.
2.) It is about 75% of LRMs hitting CT. Mostly because target is static. Movement makes missiles to hit locations on-way, and speeds over around 40 kph makes some of them miss entirely.
3.) If you're speaking about a buff from 1.1 damage to 2.0 damage as being 'little', or expecting your position or speed to affect the LRM accuracy, you're practically released everyone for the need to consider you as viable interlocutor. SRMs probably might need that exact buff though, since it would equalize LRM and SRM damage-per-ton rating and it also a canonic damage value for them.
4.) LRM are real-time guided missiles, and not supposed to spread naturally by common sense.

[Inkarnus]

Zin, on 24 June 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

Easy to test. Build heavy LRM boat, for example 60lrms and go to the testing grounds. Fire them at any mech you will see. As a result it is enough to launch only 2 volleys to kill ANY mech standing still in the open space. Why? - Because 99% of LRMS will hit their center torso regarding on your position or movement speed. IMO LRM damage even could be buffed a little, for example to 2.0 dmg, but LRMS hits should spread all over the target mech. So I agree with TS.

again TESTING GROUNDS ARENT REPRESENTATIVE
since nothing works in them like skill and such and naturally any tweaks for lrm -.-

[Kyrs]

Pretty sure that the missile did have a spread hit registering. The problem is that warhead have a splash damage and your CT is right in the center of that area splash saturation.

It very funny to see armor piecing missile warhead that splash damage instead of concentrating into a thin stream of super headed expanding gas to melt trough the layers of armors.

[Asmosis]

maybe should take off atremis and tag and see what spread is like then? having atremis+ tag/narc hit mostly CT isn't an issue with the current damage, still a bit on the light side really. could use a 0.1 or 0.2 damage increase *OR* keep damage same and give them another speed boost (and gentler arc so it looks less like a bent staple).

[Corvus Antaka]

i dont mind the CT tendancy, but i would prefer lrms that do more splash damage evenly acorss the entire mechs 3 sections where they hit and less to the CT but theyd have to hit a little harder too, maybe viable once boating them gets harder (if)

[Dude42]

Kyrs, on 25 June 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Pretty sure that the missile did have a spread hit registering. The problem is that warhead have a splash damage and your CT is right in the center of that area splash saturation.

It very funny to see armor piecing missile warhead that splash damage instead of concentrating into a thin stream of super headed expanding gas to melt trough the layers of armors.

The removed(lowered to 0.05m) splash damage about a month ago. Just on of those FYI things, so you don't look silly on the forums talking about splash damage.

DivineEvil, on 24 June 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

. After reaching landing range about 200 meters form target, they randomly choosing the hit location based on bonuses provided with aforementioned accuracy equipment. If these bonuses are provided, LRM do tend to target CT more frequently. If they encounter a different location on the way then they will hit it. When you have no bonuses on LRM accuracy, no matter how many LRM you have packed, they will hit all over the place and ocassionaly miss whatsoever.

This is actually factually incorrect. LRMs do not function like SSRMs, they never "home in" on a specific component, they just follow an arc, and where they hit, they hit. The reason the CT on most mechs is damaged more is simply that they have a larger surface area, especially from a high angle of attack.

That and a lot of people like to stare at the missile as they hit...

Check out the PGI explanation on that one.

Edit:Where is PEEFsmash when you need him. This thread desperately needs a #makeELOpublic tag.

I'm only half kidding. I can core an atlas in 4 volleys with my AWS-8R(3xLRM15+Art). But he has to be basically standing in front of me, in Direct LOS, <600m, staring at me as all 4 volleys connect with his face. Either that or I have to be in a premade with a dedicated spotter, with TAG, and the Atlas has to stand pretty still, out of cover.

It's pretty much always a L2Play issue if you get cored out like that with LRMs. Nevermind that your OP does list several different weapons hitting you.

Even when I'm coring that Atlas in my Awesome, I still hit the CT with my 2 MLs as much as I can, just to help the missiles along some. Also, when I'm not playing missiles(which is almost always, missiles kinda suck in a PUG), I time my shots with the arrival of the missiles, because I figure with so much **** hitting him, the target won't notice my shots. It's super effective. I can't even count how many times I've hit a guy with 8 MLs right as the missiles come in and take the guy out in one volley+1 shot.

Edited by Dude42, 26 June 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[ShinVector]

DivineEvil, on 25 June 2013 - 01:32 AM, said:

1.) All mechs in TG are stock versions. Rarely any of them have full armor.
2.) It is about 75% of LRMs hitting CT. Mostly because target is static. Movement makes missiles to hit locations on-way, and speeds over around 40 kph makes some of them miss entirely.
3.) If you're speaking about a buff from 1.1 damage to 2.0 damage as being 'little', or expecting your position or speed to affect the LRM accuracy, you're practically released everyone for the need to consider you as viable interlocutor. SRMs probably might need that exact buff though, since it would equalize LRM and SRM damage-per-ton rating and it also a canonic damage value for them.
4.) LRM are real-time guided missiles, and not supposed to spread naturally by common sense.

2. I have to disagree.
I had the same argue.. 'Discussion' with MWO support regarding SSRMs. Based on all the dev comments from the past..
By design they are trying to emulate TT... I understand LRMs and SSRMS the missiles are suppose to randomly hit the components of a mech.
The are emulating this by making missiles take 7 'bone' joints of a mech.... But the screw up is they are probably tracking all the end of the joints which is pretty much at the CT.
Small mechs eg. the Commando got screwed over because of the this issue.

Paul had already admitted to this problem and they are trying to make it so, that missiles with target the middle of the 'bones' rather than ends.

Quote

There are 7 bones that are randomly selected by each SSRM missile. Right now, those bones are located at joints rather than center-points for each of the components. We are looking at changing that so the bones are placed further apart and more toward the center of each component.

Refer to link below:
http://mwomercs.com/...14#entry2442114
After this is done, no idea when.... though... We should except to see more randomised hit to all compotents even on mechs that are standing still.

Oh... yah.. Some people are going comment 'oh that is for SSRMs not LRMS'... Oh what ever... to me LRMs are just long range nerfed SSRMs. They are probably tracking the same 'bones' on their flight path when guidance is on. Time will tell when the changes get done....

4. MWO is not following common sense or real life. It tries to emulate TT battletech on many designs.. I will emphasise the word TRIES TOO... (BAP lol... Sesimic.. lol...)


---

Ahhh just to not you guys forget as well.. Damage is still screwed up here and there.... Eg. SSRMS not doing impact damage to rear armour... I suspect it affects probably affects all missiles... Do really care though at the moment.. Already told PGI support that should make exact hitpoint values viewable (so we can see how much damage each weapon actually does) in Testing Ground.. So we can test weapons for them if they are not willing to do through testing themselves.

Edited by ShinVector, 27 June 2013 - 12:56 AM.

[Dude42]

ShinVector, on 26 June 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

2. I have to disagree.
I had the same argue.. 'Discussion' with MWO support regarding SSRMs. Based on all the dev comments from the past..
By design they are trying to emulate TT... I understand LRMs and SSRMS the missiles are suppose to randomly hit the components of a mech.
The are emulating this by making missiles take 7 'bone' joints of a mech.... But the screw up is they are probably tracking all the end of the joints which is pretty much at the CT.
Small mechs eg. the Commando got screwed over because of the this issue.

Paul had already admitted to this problem and they are trying to make it so, that missiles with target the middle of the 'bones' rather than ends.

Refer to link below:
http://mwomercs.com/...14#entry2442114
After this is done, no idea when.... though... We should except to see more randomised hit to all compotents even on mechs that are standing still.

Oh... yah.. Some people are going comment 'oh that is for SSRMs not LRMS'... Oh what ever... to me LRMs are just long range nerfed SSRMs. We will see when the changes get done....

4. MWO is not following common sense or real life. It trys to emulate TT battletech on many designs.. I will emphasise the word TRYS TOO... (BAP lol... Sesimic.. lol...)


---

Ahhh just to not you guys forget as well.. Damage is still screwed up here and there.... Eg. SSRMS not doing impact damage to rear armour... I suspect it affects probably affects all missiles... Do really care though at the moment.. Already told PGI support that should make exact hitpoint values viewable (so we can see how much damage each weapon actually does) in Testing Ground.. So we can test weapons for them if they are not willing to do through testing themselves.

Paul Inouye, on 24 May 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Rabble rabble rabble!!

Splash damage was reduced from 1.8m to 0.05m. That's 180cm to 5cm.

CT is taking more damage than the rest of your components why? Because the CT is the largest part of a BattleMech. It's going to take the most hits out of a volley of missiles. The missiles are not told to target any part of a Mech, they're told to get into position and follow that path from start to finish. If your target turns their torso 90 degrees from incoming missiles, they're going to lose an arm before they get cored.

I didn't say it bro. Paul did. LRMs are not long range SSRMS. They do not choose a target bone.

[ShinVector]

Dude42, on 26 June 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

I didn't say it bro. Paul did. LRMs are not long range SSRMS. They do not choose a target bone.

Ok ok... point taken.. Not that I trust PGI's word much though...
After all the smokebombs thrown on the SSRM issue.

Let's just say this game is still 'BETA' (though many of us are paying customers) and they still have lots of things to fix.

[jollyrancher1]

A pro-tip is to look away just before the volley hits. This doesnt mean much for something with small lrm tubes (ams can chew that up anyway) but if you are fighting an awesome with 4 lrms and you are in an atlas, just looking to the left when the volley hits can make most if not all of the damage hit in other parts of the mech. The missiles should nerf themselves a little when they get the targeting location a little more spread out, but the snipers are still the biggest killers on the battlefield not the lrm boats.

[Solis Obscuri]

I'm not noticing that LRMs are focusing on the CT unless they are equipped with Artemis.

However, I'm not sure that the bug with Artemis working without LoS is fixed - seems in some cases missiles are retaining that tight pattern even when I'm behind vision-obstructing cover.

[GKnightBC]

Just my 2 cents: The CT on some mechs is a bigger target and should be damaged to a higher proportion. The head on a Catapult, for example, is the largest head hitbox in the game, I believe, thus leading to more headshot deaths. This would, therefore, make better sense of LRMs, which take a high trajectory and are only minimally affected by twisting, hitting more CT than sides.

[evlkenevl]

So many replies in this thread seem to be in fear of LRMs being changed again. Several have just refused to acknowledge the OPs statements and are pretty much claiming that "it didn't really happen that way". I've recently seen LRMs coring mechs with my own eyes and that's not supposed to be how they work.

[jollyrancher1]

evlkenevl, on 27 June 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

So many replies in this thread seem to be in fear of LRMs being changed again. Several have just refused to acknowledge the OPs statements and are pretty much claiming that "it didn't really happen that way". I've recently seen LRMs coring mechs with my own eyes and that's not supposed to be how they work.

From my previous post above:
The missiles should nerf themselves a little when they get the targeting location a little more spread out, but the snipers are still the biggest killers on the battlefield not the lrm boats.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Asmosis, on 22 June 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

^^ snipers can't be countered by torso twisting, unless you both have extremely low pings.

Consider that your ping (the time it takes your twist to reach the server) added to your opponents ping (the time it takes him to see you twist) is the length of time BEFORE HE FIRES that you have to twist, you have to twist about 0.4-0.6 seconds before the shot is even taken according to your client.

That might work for srms near max range, but ballistics/ppcs will reach you within that time frame so twisting doesn't do anything if your reacting to shots that you see taken.

@Topic

yup lrms do focus on the CT. even with that I think they are still below par compared to ppcs/ballistics, but if/when they fix the spread like what they plan on doing with ssrms, both missile types will need a damage buff or drop from existence. You often can't avoid taking CT damage from lrms even if you turn your back, as the trajectory will have them raining on top of you.

Smart pilots twist BEFORE the enemy sniper fires, because they know they're exposed. That does spread the damage around. That's what OP is referring to. Not reacting to shots fired with a torso twist. You're absolutely right, that is too late.

With LRM's currently, that does not seem to be the case. They trend towards CT regardless of the amount of torso twisting etc. I don't know that they core you out as the OP states, but ime they do do more damage to CT than anywhere else. Game breaking? Not sure yet. Don't believe so atm.

[TechKnight1337]

Two out of three matches I play, our team gets pinned down behind what little cover there is, out of fear of being insta-cored by LRMboats firing massive volleys of missiles. We can't even see them before we get destroyed.

This game isn't fun anymore. Screw you guys, I'm going home.

[GoPostal]

LRM boat don't score because they center core u, and kill u. This LRM war is getting old...... LRM's are not just the finishing weapon like someone said, most use it as primary and most only have this weapon. This Game is getting old, lets hide behind a rock and shoot LRM's!! woot woot

[TechKnight1337]

Thontor, on 27 June 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

Yeah, if you just let LRMs hit you in the face, standing still or moving directly towards or away from them... they are going to do most of their damage on the CT. I don't have a problem with this. It's not too hard to twist away and force them to hit your side instead. Any perpendicular movement will force some of them to chase you from behind and hit your legs or the ground... even when you are in an Atlas.

And if that were the case, I'd agree with you. However, yesterday my front CT was destroyed by LRMs fired from behind me. This is typical. How does that make any sense?