21 replies to this topic

[Novakaine]

If PGI ever fields the mythical Clans.
Which do not exist mind you.
It's a matter of numbers anyway, in Battletech lore anyway.
1 Clan Star = 5 Omnimechs.
1 Battlemech Company = 12 IS Battlemechs.
So you would have 5 vs.12
If PGI keeps to the lore then Clan balance will be no problem.
The Clans would have the superior tech, but the IS would always have the numbers.
Which is what saved the IS in the end really.
So hopefully they would do this and not have to hork up the Clans.
Just thought i'd throw it out there.
What do you guys think?
On a side note......
There are no Clans
The Clans do not exist.
The Clans are a myth.
You have been warned.
Fedcom Milsec

[zazz0000]

I generally like this approach to Clans, since you balance out battles without nerfing the tech.
However 5 vs 12 imo would likely be a constant landslide defeat for the Clans

Sure, they boast high alpha and low heat for all weight classes, say 60 dmg, but IS mechs put out 40 dmg alpha all day, and thats without resorting to "cheese" builds. So in a 5 v 12 scenario, you're talking 300 vs 480 overall alpha output, while the overall armor rating is very much on the IS side.

So maybe 5 v 12 is a bit overwhelming, maybe, but overall a disbalance in numbers is a good approach for a variety of reasons. Like for example it encourages more DPS builds (while the current meta is mostly alpha oriented). That quad ac2 gives you a better DPS than 6 PPC, and if you've noticed is quite effective if you aren't drawing much fire.

Just give the player the ability to choose lobbies, like ISvIS, CvC, ISvC disbalanced, and yeah, everyone is happy(ish)

PS, sorry to steer away from original intention, but it'd be nice to have disbalanced game modes even in IS, like playing with a team tonnage limit but without player limit, say 500T, randomly filled up from the pool. Thats another story though.

[Sybreed]

yeah, I thought the best would be 16 IS vs 10 Clans, but that's 2 more than the 24 max fights by PGI.

Edited by Sybreed, 22 June 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[General Taskeen]

Unbalanced matching isn't going to happen, period. That is the fantasy, considering 8 vs 8 isn't even balanced with IS. Even in MW:LL there is 'pure tech' Clans vs. IS with the same number of players.

Only in private matching will you ever see people purposely fielding less players.

[Braggart]

NO....................

This is a competitive multiplayer game, where skill should be the key to winning, not simply having superior technology.

Clan tech is so superior that any kind of balancing like that will not work. As they will instantly destroy IS mechs. You think it is bad now when you step around a corner and get absolutely pounded. That will always end in death after that.

Can you imagine Light mechs running streak 6's and ER medium lasers that are the equivilent to an IS large laser. 1 ton for a 5 ton weapon. no mech will survive volleys of 6 LRM 20, which have no minimum range.


This is a competitive multiplayer game, where skill is a requirement. There is no place for unbalanced tech in a competitive game, and any attempts at giving 1 side more players, will still result in players getting instantly destroyed by other players. Which results in a boring game for said player.

NO.

[zazz0000]

Braggart, on 22 June 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

NO.

It's a pretty grim picture you paint for Clan Tech in general... Even in a Clan vs Clan combat
Maybe damage is dealt out too fast in general?

[Syllogy]

No. A jacktard in a madcat is still a jacktard.

[Soy]

I read this thread
It is bad
You have been warned
But it's too late
Soysec

[Karazyr]

Meh we can only wait and see, i hope they dont keep to cannon, give the clan mechs a slight advantage and make them cost a bomb but dont make them better in every single way, or another rout they could take is just dump the silly clan tech and just use the model and keep it with IS tech that would be cool to

[Odins Fist]

Odins Fist, on 21 June 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Not to get off subject, but shouldn't we be knee deep in WAVE 3 of Operation Revival..?? I mean whats missing there, aren't planets like Rasalhague, Hot Springs (the vacation spot for the inner sphere) being attacked, and isn't Ridderkerk hit like a freight train the begining of July, and aren't the 1st Lyran Regulars worked over good? Isn't July WAVE 4 of Operation Revival..?? What will CW do to make this happen, anyone know..?? Nope, some contact has had to have been made, but nobody is talking?

I'm not holding out much hope that the Clans will show anytime soon, i'm not holding out much hope that destroying a clan mech and not destroying it's weapons will yield salvage and use of those weapons, it would be nice, but if people think anyone is going to be happy being told to wait until late to early 3051/52 or 2014/15 for certain things, then I got news for ya.

A FULL (extensive) list of all the planets hit by the Clans can be viewed here..
http://www.sarna.net...i/Clan_Invasion

Also see Twycross ... Quote ---> "survivors of the Twycross TMM withdrew from the planet. However, though losing the planet, they brought intelligence that aid the FedCom High Command to develop a strategy to help over come the Clans ".. This happened in June 3050, it's a few days from July 3050.. 3 weeks of fighting or not, the timeline that MWO is going by doesn't hold water anymore.
.
So nobody has any idea about the Clans, their tactics, systems, etc, etc, etc,.. Ok then..
I knew the announcement of any sort of timeline would be a mistake, and come back to haunt them.

Edited by Odins Fist, 22 June 2013 - 10:40 AM.

[Novakaine]

zazz0000, on 22 June 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

I generally like this approach to Clans, since you balance out battles without nerfing the tech.
However 5 vs 12 imo would likely be a constant landslide defeat for the Clans

Sure, they boast high alpha and low heat for all weight classes, say 60 dmg, but IS mechs put out 40 dmg alpha all day, and thats without resorting to "cheese" builds. So in a 5 v 12 scenario, you're talking 300 vs 480 overall alpha output, while the overall armor rating is very much on the IS side.

So maybe 5 v 12 is a bit overwhelming, maybe, but overall a disbalance in numbers is a good approach for a variety of reasons. Like for example it encourages more DPS builds (while the current meta is mostly alpha oriented). That quad ac2 gives you a better DPS than 6 PPC, and if you've noticed is quite effective if you aren't drawing much fire.

Just give the player the ability to choose lobbies, like ISvIS, CvC, ISvC disbalanced, and yeah, everyone is happy(ish)

PS, sorry to steer away from original intention, but it'd be nice to have disbalanced game modes even in IS, like playing with a team tonnage limit but without player limit, say 500T, randomly filled up from the pool. Thats another story though.

Being a vetern of hundreds if not thousands of table top battles since 1985.
I can say the win loss percentage is 50/50.
I understand MWO and Battletech are very different games, but I think the percenatge still remain at 50/50.
Will the average Clan mech steamroll the average IS mech?
Yes.
But when you factor in pilot skill and sheer numbers it all changes.
It all depends on the pilot, just like it stands now.
If you are a lousy shot in a Raven now, your'e still gonna be a lousy shot in a Uller.
Superior tech does not equate to superior pilots.
Thus the Clans balance themselves without constant nerfing of the Clans.
Hopefully this is the route PGI takes.
So lets do this PGI and see what happens.
5v8 or 5v12 it just gonna work.
I can see the Clanner's whining already.

[mack sabbath]

Actually it's Star vs. Lance, that is 5 v 4, 10 v 8 unless the Clan bids less resources after assuming your lance sucks.

Edited by Die Primate Die, 22 June 2013 - 10:33 AM.

[Novakaine]

Die Primate Die, on 22 June 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Actually it's Star vs. Lance, that is 5 V 4.

True but that ratio would never work in MWO.
The only way to level the field is with the numbers being in the IS favor.

[Gaan Cathal]

10 v 12 is more likely in my opinion, Clans carry more firepower but their defenses are no stronger - a Timberwolf will melt as fast as an Orion.

[Satan n stuff]

Die Primate Die, on 22 June 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Actually it's Star vs. Lance, that is 5 v 4, 10 v 8 unless the Clan bids less resources after assuming your lance sucks.

I was under the impression it was two Clan stars vs one IS company?

[Odins Fist]

Odins Fist, on 22 June 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

A FULL (extensive) list of all the planets hit by the Clans can be viewed here..
http://www.sarna.net...i/Clan_Invasion

Also see Twycross ... Quote ---> "survivors of the Twycross TMM withdrew from the planet. However, though losing the planet, they brought intelligence that aid the FedCom High Command to develop a strategy to help over come the Clans ".. This happened in June 3050, it's a few days from July 3050.. 3 weeks of fighting or not, the timeline that MWO is going by doesn't hold water anymore.
.
So nobody has any idea about the Clans, their tactics, systems, etc, etc, etc,.. Ok then..
I knew the announcement of any sort of timeline would be a mistake, and come back to haunt them.

[Asbjorn Jorgensson]

I think Table Top rules usually make you roll a Binary to fight a Company. Also no self-respecting Star Captain will fight 10v12 odds against IS barbarians so they should nerf themselves even more during bidding.

Breaking Zellbrigen should also be heavily penalised i.e. a repair and refit system that makes you constantly lose "money" if you constantly break it. I think the general losses in the TT's Tukayyid event is an example of why Clans should get pwned when outnumbered.

I think we should also change the targetting system for the clanners too. I doubt clanners "work together" unless you are a Wolf. I think the targets should not show up unless someone is fighting a certain target which declares to you that someone is fighting this target.

However I doubt you would prevent a super good Warhawk user coring everyone it sees but that is a different story I suppose.

[Gaan Cathal]

Asbjorn Jorgensson, on 22 June 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Breaking Zellbrigen should also be heavily penalised i.e. a repair and refit system that makes you constantly lose "money" if you constantly break it. I think the general losses in the TT's Tukayyid event is an example of why Clans should get pwned when outnumbered.

The Inner Sphere do not observe Zellbrigen, ergo the Clans are not required to - and generally do not - observe it when fighting them.

[Odins Fist]

Gaan Cathal, on 22 June 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

The Inner Sphere do not observe Zellbrigen, ergo the Clans are not required to - and generally do not - observe it when fighting them.

Also "Zellbrigen" will "NEVER" work in multiplayer matches (8v8 or 12v12)..

I, and some of my friends used to call out, and be called out for duels in closed and early open beta, but it just doesn't work..

Some dingbat not wanting to be bothered with this, or a hanky group always breaks the agreement.

Last one was an 8 man on Caustic, my friend was called out, he accpeted, we all agreed, they were to post up in the Caldera, or center of the Volcano..

My friend and the other mech (both Cataphracts) fought for about 20 seconds, during that time 3 enemy Centurions rounded low to get a flanking position to get a position on our Atlas-DC, and my Atlas -RS..

My friend dueling was running a Gauss and 3 medium lasers, the enemy Phract was running 4 large lasers.
The duel went badly for the enemy Phract, at that point the enemy team on the opposite side of the Caldera decided they would help their firend, and at that moment the Centurions that had been concealed on the right side of the Caldera made their move.

My friend that was dueling managed to get to our side of the Caldera (he was closer to us), I don't know how, but he managed it.
The Centurions hit both the Atlas D-DC and my Atlas-RS, and the enemy team began to advance over the Caldera towards our team that had begun to back down from the edge.

The 3 Centurions all had AC-10s in their right arms, 2 of them lost their right arms within moments, the third was circling low.
One of our teammates (Raven) managed to drop the Cent we damaged heavily, fairly quick, a second was hit with a second volley of (6) Medium lasers, (5) SRM-6, and (1) Gauss, and (1) AC-20, and dropped like a rock.. (remember when SRMs actually hurt). At that point the enemy team had made the distance and our entire team was engaged. My friend in the Phract that had been dueling, lost his right arm and right leg to the remaining Centurion, but it cost the Centurion his life. 3 enemy down.

The remaining enemy team (3) Atlas D-DCs, (1) splat Cat, and (1) wounded Phract, had ignored our (2) Atlas (we had been dragged about 400 meters right in our fight), and concentrated on my teams left, they killed our (2) Catapults, and were engaged with (2) of our Phracts, and our only Raven... Our wounded Phract missing and arm and a leg did his best to stay in position behind me and my friend in our Atlas wall, we covered 200 meters and began to engage the enemy force.

Their wounded Phract caught a Gauss (and possibly AC-20 from me don't know) from our Atlas D-DC and dropped, their splat Cat had just made a pass on our Phracts engaged, and ended up face first towards us, ooops, he went down..

One of our Phracts died shortly after that, and their (3) Atlas-DCs were now engaging our D-DC and RS, (1) damaged Phract, and (1) crippled Phract, and (1) almost untouched Raven.. End result All enemy Mechs Destroyed, survivng Mechs were(1) almost unhurt Raven, (1) Crippled Phract, (1) Atlas D-DC damaged heavily, and (1) Atlas-RS missing an arm and left shoulder.

The point to all of that is this... That Duel didn't work, it was agreed upon, the agreement was broken, and since then every single agreement like that has ended up broken as well.

"Zellbrigen" won't work unless there is some sort of ARENA feature, the MWO community/player base isn't reliable enough as a whole to be trusted with that kind of thing just left open.
Too many awful "Birds of a Feather" flocking together (if you know what I mean).

Even when or if Clan Mechs make it into the game, do you really think people are going to stick to their word.??
Nope, they can't manage to keep their agreements now. Don't even start about pugging and getting called out for a duel...

[Gaan Cathal]

Not that half the Clans actually stick to Zellbrigen in practice anyway. A quick skim of Sarna shows up more exceptions than compliance outside of a handful of Clans.