64 replies to this topic

[Sephlock]

Just play SUPER OMGWTF cautious... and resign yourself to being inferior.

[Corvus Antaka]

2 erppc on a cicada with an ECM. speed isnt the only thing you need.

[CancR]

No lights in mechassault of duty
jager ac 40 are skill
working as intended

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 23 June 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

2 erppc on a cicada with an ECM. speed isnt the only thing you need.

this is the only thing that has kept me playing.

[stjobe]

One can equally well ask what the point is of having lights at all.

I'm often the lightest thing on the field - on both teams - when I drop in a medium. I'm often the only thing under 60 tons when I drop in a light.

PGI needs to start rewarding light and medium gameplay and not only cater to the high-heat, high-alpha fatties. It makes for a very boring game for a light pilot like me.

Edited by stjobe, 23 June 2013 - 09:18 AM.

[CancR]

stjobe, on 23 June 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

One might as well as what the point is of having lights at all.

I'm often the lightest thing on the field - on both teams - when I drop in a medium. I'm often the only thing under 60 tons when I drop in a light.

PGI needs to start rewarding light and medium gameplay and not only cater to the high-heat, high-alpha fatties. It makes for a very boring game for a light pilot like me.

They promised this before the founders programs. Think it's coming any time soon?

[FupDup]

stjobe, on 23 June 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

One can equally well ask what the point is of having lights at all.

Canon fodder for all of the whales (slang term for people who spend a lot on F2P games) piloting heavies and assaults?

[stjobe]

CancR, on 23 June 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

They promised this before the founders programs. Think it's coming any time soon?

I asked them for the upcoming Ask the Devs (and Get Short Non-Committal Answers) #41. Vote for it if you wonder too.

FupDup, on 23 June 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Canon fodder for all of the whales (slang term for people who spend a lot on F2P games) piloting heavies and assaults?

I'm a whale, but they don't seem to want my money (apart from the $120 they already got). If they wanted my money, they'd encourage my kind of play style, right?

Since they don't - and seem to actively discourage it - I'll take my fat pay-checks elsewhere.

Edited by stjobe, 23 June 2013 - 09:26 AM.

[DemonRaziel]

As stated by Bryan Ekman

Bryan Ekman via PC Game said:

One of our core pillars is what we call ‘information warfare,’ which basically boils down to controlling the flow of information on the battlefield, whether it be your own information, or the information of your enemies. We want to make gameplay be less about an arms race, where you start in a light Mech but you really want to get into an assault Mech, because it’s the best thing there is.

source: http://www.pcgamer.c...tical-mech-sim/

Yeah, there were plans. Or should I say promises? I envy PanzerMagier his optimism. I hardly share it in the last few weeks.

Edited by DemonRaziel, 23 June 2013 - 09:56 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

CancR, on 23 June 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

They promised this before the founders programs. Think it's coming any time soon?

Well, do you think we 'll get our Founder's money back if they don't? "Sorry guys, we were forced to delete the Role Warfare blog and consequently can't give you the game we said we'd be making."



(Though no, I don't want my money back. I had a good time, despite all my whining and moaning about balance, I just wished the game would be closer to what it was envisioned at. It might be that what it was envisioned is just impossible. I don't know.)

[stjobe]

MustrumRidcully, on 23 June 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Well, do you think we 'll get our Founder's money back if they don't? "Sorry guys, we were forced to delete the Role Warfare blog and consequently can't give you the game we said we'd be making."

(Though no, I don't want my money back. I had a good time, despite all my whining and moaning about balance, I just wished the game would be closer to what it was envisioned at. It might be that what it was envisioned is just impossible. I don't know.)

I don't think it is impossible, but they need to themselves go back and re-read those dev blogs and really do their damnedest to try to implement that game instead of this one.

And for the record, I'm much in the same boat as you; I don't regret spending my money, I'm just a bit sad that the current game is so far from what they envisioned (and what I thought I was paying for), and I don't think it likely I'll spend more money until they start to cater also to my play style as a light/medium pilot.

Edited by stjobe, 23 June 2013 - 10:08 AM.

[Foxfire]

Yeah, I don't regret the money I spent. I just hope that they can pull a rabbit out of the bag and put the game back on track for what they wanted early on.

I know they won't be able to deliver on all of their promises.. but it just feels like they gave up on their vision at this point.

[CancR]

MustrumRidcully, on 23 June 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Well, do you think we 'll get our Founder's money back if they don't? "Sorry guys, we were forced to delete the Role Warfare blog and consequently can't give you the game we said we'd be making."



(Though no, I don't want my money back. I had a good time, despite all my whining and moaning about balance, I just wished the game would be closer to what it was envisioned at. It might be that what it was envisioned is just impossible. I don't know.)

They never intedned to give us a proper mechwarrior game, Forward+m1 on small maps with jager ac 40s and 6 ppcs stalkers is what a CoD player assumes is 'skill'

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Slow lights (I run my 4x with an xl245) around 110-120kmh are still very useful, just for different reasons. I usually dont get too much further than 250 damage with it, but it's a small, agile fire platform that can mount an AC5, and LRM5 and 2ML and still be able to jump.

Most builds seem to monopolize one weapon or strategy and then push the speed or armor to an extreme. Slower builds can be plenty useful and much more heat stable. Low FP builds can still cause plenty of damage, so long as you dont do something stupid and get yourself killed before you have an opportunity.

Mechs lik the 2x and 4x have a much wider learning curve, but that doesn't mean they are useless. They're just rarely used, and even more rarely used effectively, and that skews the meta to avoid them. This occurance is commonly referred to as "ignorance". IE, the ignorant avoid something out of fear or paranoia based on rumors instead of personal experience, preferring more popular answers over having to make up their own mind by themselves or learn a skill.

Another part of the problem is also that streaks largely dominate the lights and mediums game, and mechs without (or with less of them) are often ignored for the 3L, 2D and D, because they can run around at 150kmh and not have to aim their CT seeking 1.5t powerhouse of a weapon. Most of the time, they can't even hit with their lasers, and frankly don't need to.

[MischiefSC]

Actually I'm tearing it up in a Jenner right now. Especially against high-alpha builds. The problem is that they tend to lack maneuverability and when yo uget over 140kph, with a couple easy tricks you can simply stay behind any assault and most heavies. You'll never be in their forward field of fire.

I've never had so many 5, 6, 7 kill games. Never. Not even in LURMAGEDDON.

The problem is that too few people pilot lights so there's no incentive for people to change their loadouts.

The change to pulse lasers just make SPLs killer for lights.

13% less head for SPLs than MLs. That's 2, 3, even 4 more shots per heat warning than MLs.
1/2 the beam duration. 0.5 seconds, it's almost instant.
Only 0.01 less DPS than an ML. With 1/2 the beam duration it's far more concentrated resulting more damage on desired target point.
0.75 second shorter cycle time - more likely to be ready to shoot when you're on target than MLs.

Only difference is range needs to be 90m instead of 270 but if you're outside of 90m, you're a sucker - within minimum range for PPCs is where you want to be anyway. At 140-150 KPH that's a difference of less than 2 seconds travel time.

Kill a PPC snipers dreams today - run a Jenner!

[stjobe]

MischiefSC, on 23 June 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

Actually I'm tearing it up in a Jenner right now

Well sure, the Jenner was always the best of the lights before ECM put the 3L beyond it - and with the new BAP it looks like the Jenner has taken its crown back.

But what about those lights that can't mount 4-6 lasers and a couple of Streaks? The Commandos, the Spiders, the Ravens? And especially the variants that can't mount ECM?

Sure, it's easy to say playing a light isn't so bad when you play the very best chassis (and there are no bad Jenner variants), but try a few drops in one of the other lights. My preferred ride is the Commando, and it's never been less viable. I also tried mastering the Spiders, but I couldn't stomach grinding any other than the 5D - the 5V and 5K are just not viable on the current battlefield. I'm sure the Raven pilots have similar tales about the 2X and 4X.

So yeah. Good on you for having fun in what has always been one of the very strongest lights. I'm sure you're a very good pilot as well, so kudos on that. For many of us others, being a light pilot isn't very fun - in fact it's outright frustrating.

If you ask me, there's too many non-viable variants in this game right now, and too many of them are lights and mediums.

[MischiefSC]

stjobe, on 23 June 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Well sure, the Jenner was always the best of the lights before ECM put the 3L beyond it - and with the new BAP it looks like the Jenner has taken its crown back.

But what about those lights that can't mount 4-6 lasers and a couple of Streaks? The Commandos, the Spiders, the Ravens? And especially the variants that can't mount ECM?

Sure, it's easy to say playing a light isn't so bad when you play the very best chassis (and there are no bad Jenner variants), but try a few drops in one of the other lights. My preferred ride is the Commando, and it's never been less viable. I also tried mastering the Spiders, but I couldn't stomach grinding any other than the 5D - the 5V and 5K are just not viable on the current battlefield. I'm sure the Raven pilots have similar tales about the 2X and 4X.

So yeah. Good on you for having fun in what has always been one of the very strongest lights. I'm sure you're a very good pilot as well, so kudos on that. For many of us others, being a light pilot isn't very fun - in fact it's outright frustrating.

If you ask me, there's too many non-viable variants in this game right now, and too many of them are lights and mediums.

Don't bother with streaks. They hit the CT pretty often but not that much. The only things NOT viable now are MG spiders. Anything else should be packing the new SPLs, all the speed they can and SRM4s. The problem is that people keep trying to circle in lights. HSR ruined that - too accurate. Hit and run though? SPLs are a lot of damage for very little heat. SRM4s with no artemis are a short, hard punch.

Run your lights at point blank, hit and move, practice staying behind the enemy. Pop a leg off and then it's all over. They won't be able to turn fast enough to keep you from just sticking behind them.

It's not just that lights kill heavies/assaults, it's that you can kill them in the most infuriating way. They'll never have a chance to shoot you. With the new sniper/LRM metathey don't stick that close together - brawlers, the ones who are a threat to the snipers, are inherently going to be further out in front.

Mediums? They have nothing. Lightly armored heavies with less weapons. Totally screwed by the current meta. Dragon or Quickdraw will do everything they do at the same speed just with better armor and more guns.

Lights though? That's your PPC balance.

Do your part for PGI - make a PPC sniper ragequit today and drive a light!

[DemonRaziel]

MischiefSC, on 23 June 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

Only difference is range needs to be 90m instead of 270 but if you're outside of 90m, you're a sucker - within minimum range for PPCs is where you want to be anyway. At 140-150 KPH that's a difference of less than 2 seconds travel time.

A boat with standard PPCs? If you managed to get close enough w/out being pulverized and are not instantly killed by other 'Mechs around, then in front of the boat is exactly where you want to be. Make him alpha you for barely noticable damage, overheat, blow his head off in 2 alphas.

Works only if you pack at least 17 pinpoint alpha, of course.

The only problem are those "ifs".

[Foxfire]

The only 4X build I found viable mounted an LBX10 with two medium lasers... Did well vs lights and let me maul back armor against heavier targets.

[stjobe]

MischiefSC, on 23 June 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Don't bother with streaks. They hit the CT pretty often but not that much. The only things NOT viable now are MG spiders. Anything else should be packing the new SPLs, all the speed they can and SRM4s. The problem is that people keep trying to circle in lights. HSR ruined that - too accurate. Hit and run though? SPLs are a lot of damage for very little heat. SRM4s with no artemis are a short, hard punch.

Run your lights at point blank, hit and move, practice staying behind the enemy. Pop a leg off and then it's all over. They won't be able to turn fast enough to keep you from just sticking behind them.

It's not just that lights kill heavies/assaults, it's that you can kill them in the most infuriating way. They'll never have a chance to shoot you. With the new sniper/LRM metathey don't stick that close together - brawlers, the ones who are a threat to the snipers, are inherently going to be further out in front.

Mediums? They have nothing. Lightly armored heavies with less weapons. Totally screwed by the current meta. Dragon or Quickdraw will do everything they do at the same speed just with better armor and more guns.

Lights though? That's your PPC balance.

Do your part for PGI - make a PPC sniper ragequit today and drive a light!

I applaud your enthusiasm, but you're wrong - or should I say, giving bad advice - on a number of counts:

First off - Streaks. Unless you're in an ECM/BAP light, this will be your number one death; CT cored by a Streak-mounting opponent, be it another light or something heavier. Normally, your other armour won't be more than yellow. Your number two death will be CT cored by a high-heat pin-point alpha from a fattie. So mount as many Streaks as you can carry - in a fight between two equally skilled opponents in the same 'mech, if one has Streaks and the other doesn't, the pilot with Streaks will win every time. It's the single most determining factor in who comes out on top in a light-on-light fight. It's stupidly, brokenly overpowered, and it's CT-seeking to boot.

Secondly, to get inside the effective range of your SPL, you have to get there. Preferably undetected. Enter Seismic. All the time in the world for your intended target to turn around and train his high-heat, pin-point alpha on you. Sure, you have the skills to get and stay behind him, but that's where number three comes in:

Thirdly, what you're describing is a one-on-one. Against opponents with even moderately high-level brain-stem functions, that just won't happen. Everyone knows they're packing enough alpha to one-shot a light, and boy do they ever want to one-shot a light. They will chase you, they will gang up on you.

So while I do agree with your sentiment that more people should pilot lights - it is, after all, my preferred weight class, and I've been piloting lights for close to a year now - I don't think you giving this kind of advice will get many more adherents to our cause.

But please, don't take my word for it. Buy a COM-1B, strap on an XL210, 3xSPL, an SRM-4 with a ton of ammo, max armour and go to town. I just played three matches in mine. Three losses, three times CT-cored, zero kills, abysmal damage. And that with a 'mech I'm extremely familiar with, having dropped way over 500 drops in them.

What would accomplish the goal of getting more people in lights would be for PGI to start rewarding other things than just plain old damage-dealing; things that lights traditionally are good at, things like scouting, targeting for indirect fire, capping, running diversions and so on. We can't compete with the fatties in the game of damage-dealing; we have neither the armour nor the fire power to do so - yet that's what we're forced to do currently. It needs to change, and the only ones who can change it is PGI.

[MischiefSC]

stjobe, on 23 June 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

I applaud your enthusiasm, but you're wrong - or should I say, giving bad advice - on a number of counts:

First off - Streaks. Unless you're in an ECM/BAP light, this will be your number one death; CT cored by a Streak-mounting opponent, be it another light or something heavier. Normally, your other armour won't be more than yellow. Your number two death will be CT cored by a high-heat pin-point alpha from a fattie. So mount as many Streaks as you can carry - in a fight between two equally skilled opponents in the same 'mech, if one has Streaks and the other doesn't, the pilot with Streaks will win every time. It's the single most determining factor in who comes out on top in a light-on-light fight. It's stupidly, brokenly overpowered, and it's CT-seeking to boot.

Secondly, to get inside the effective range of your SPL, you have to get there. Preferably undetected. Enter Seismic. All the time in the world for your intended target to turn around and train his high-heat, pin-point alpha on you. Sure, you have the skills to get and stay behind him, but that's where number three comes in:

Thirdly, what you're describing is a one-on-one. Against opponents with even moderately high-level brain-stem functions, that just won't happen. Everyone knows they're packing enough alpha to one-shot a light, and boy do they ever want to one-shot a light. They will chase you, they will gang up on you.

So while I do agree with your sentiment that more people should pilot lights - it is, after all, my preferred weight class, and I've been piloting lights for close to a year now - I don't think you giving this kind of advice will get many more adherents to our cause.

But please, don't take my word for it. Buy a COM-1B, strap on an XL210, 3xSPL, an SRM-4 with a ton of ammo, max armour and go to town. I just played three matches in mine. Three losses, three times CT-cored, zero kills, abysmal damage. And that with a 'mech I'm extremely familiar with, having dropped way over 500 drops in them.

What would accomplish the goal of getting more people in lights would be for PGI to start rewarding other things than just plain old damage-dealing; things that lights traditionally are good at, things like scouting, targeting for indirect fire, capping, running diversions and so on. We can't compete with the fatties in the game of damage-dealing; we have neither the armour nor the fire power to do so - yet that's what we're forced to do currently. It needs to change, and the only ones who can change it is PGI.

I'd say we approach playing lights very differently.

I never hunt other lights unless it's some raven with PPCs or LRMs. I hunt heavies and assaults. If I run across a light with streaks, I run for friendly skirts to hide behind.

I use seismic constantly - it helps me avoid being ambushed. While yes, heavies want to get their sights on a light - but when they're already shooting at an Atlas or Highlander closing with them they only get to shoot at one of you. If they hsoot at me, great! I'll make them show the Atlas their back to get a bead on me. If they don't, well, few have more than 20 rear armor on a left or right torso. Two or three shots, about 6 seconds or so, and half their assault is gone. With an XL (yay Highlanders with XLs! Delicious!) that's a kill.

As to anecdotal experience I just took my Jenner 7D to Master (from Basic) with a 2.74 KDR and 1.58 win/loss. Not bad for me anyway for pugging. Just finishing off Expert in my 7F with a 2.46 and 1.45 respectively.

Total of around 100 matches in the last three days with a win/loss of about 1.5 and a KDR in a light that's not even Expert of a bit over 2.5.

You just have to change how you play. Now it's about backstabbing the rear guy in the enemy pack after the fight starts. Force them to choose targets - you or that boomjag trying to close. Don't circle anymore - it's a bad habit now. Sweep back and forth behind and when they get some distance, run for cover. Avoid other lights - if they want to chase you, lead them back to allies. When possible pick legs or torsos off enemies to make them easier for your teammates to kill.

Screw ECM. Same with BAP. The game it still about the alpha, you just have to be very close and very precise in a light. With seismic you can pick your targets from safety, blitz in, blow your load in your target point of choice and ****. It'***** and run now.

It does help that the Jenner goes 300XL. 152 KPH helps a LOT. With JJ turns I can pretty much stay behind anything over 60 tons without ever getting in their front arc.

Lights can and should get into the mix - where they shine is fox and hound distraction; make them shift attention away from your heavy-hitting teammates to chase you or suffer the consequences. Scout from behind ridges - enemies with seismic will break off to chase you without you ever having to risk being seen, sniped or missile locked.

Brave new world for lights man. I'm loving it. PGI doesn't change the meta so much at change the rules, we change the meta by how we play. A nice 4 man set of Jenners can clean up now. It's not about the flocks of ravens but full circle back to Jenner wolf packs.