64 replies to this topic

[One Medic Army]

PEEFsmash, on 22 June 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

Its penance for a future of using missiles that aim themselves with a shield against most others using the missiles that aim themselves.

I dunno, these days the 3L just feels a bit Meh.
Streaks are nice and all, but Jenner-D can mount a BAP and use them too, and the Jenner-D gets jumps and a 4th laser.

Plus once you get to the level where people aim those lasers start getting a bit more dangerous than auto-aiming streaks, you get to start aiming for legs and side torsos.

Don't get me wrong, I hated the 3L in the days of the Streak-ECM overlords, but those days are pretty much gone.

As to the OP, slow lights are dead lights, it's an unfortunate situation caused by using TT build rules, no BV/tonnage system, and gigantic pinpoint alphas.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 22 June 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

They are grind fodder. Working as intended™.

They are also target practice. Working as intended™.

Anyways, the reality is that non-ECM (and non-Jenner) light mechs are really good for being like "mediums" except, with the speed to get out unless they are fighting other ECM-lights...

It's kinda ironic they are kinda like what mediums should be to some degree... have the speed to get really get out...

Oh well. I dunno what to say outside of... I blame Garth for a Raven-2X/4X buff that did not come.

[aniviron]

MustrumRidcully, on 23 June 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

Don't Mediums have the same problem - go fast or explode?

As long as the mechs can actually go fast, they might at least have a use.

But even with that mind, one has to wonder if there shouldn't be use (other than to boost my ego by one-shooting something) for slow lights and mediums, too. Maybe not Urbanmech-slow, but... Jagermech AC/40 slow.

Mediums actually don't have the "go fast or explode" problem. They're big enough that the only ones that can break 90kph (cent-d, yolowang, and trebs) just explode anyway. There were some people waxing about how great their 130kph medium builds were last week, but they came with less firepower than the standard rvn-3l.

That said, yes, a slow medium is also a dead one. Speed helps a bit, but not enough to save you. For lights, it is a combination of a small target profile and speed.

[Whompity]

I'm not very good in them, but I enjoy lights most of all. Currently playing with the X-5, which isn't the worst thing I've ever driven.

[Victor Morson]

Sub-max speed lights will always be awful and is the primary reason we'll never see something like the Panther. It's just the nature of the game, really, unless they introduce something that makes for a stellar brawler light.

All it took to make the Wolfhound one of the best line 'mechs in MW4 was giving it a paper-thin profile. It would be nice to see something like that in MW:O down the line.

[stjobe]

MischiefSC, on 23 June 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

You just have to change how you play.

Sure, and you should try something other than the Jenner.

Go on, drop in a COM-1B or a SDR-5V. Hell, try a RVN-2X, it has almost the same hard points as a Jenner.

Tell me how that Brave New World of yours looks from behind the stick of a non-Jenner.

Face it, the Jenner has it all. It can go max speed with max armour, touting a 20+ alpha in every configuration you can think of. The Commando can't do that. The Spider can't do that. The Raven can't do that.

But I guess everything's all right if you're doing okay?

[MischiefSC]

stjobe, on 23 June 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

Sure, and you should try something other than the Jenner.

Go on, drop in a COM-1B or a SDR-5V. Hell, try a RVN-2X, it has almost the same hard points as a Jenner.

Tell me how that Brave New World of yours looks from behind the stick of a non-Jenner.

Face it, the Jenner has it all. It can go max speed with max armour, touting a 20+ alpha in every configuration you can think of. The Commando can't do that. The Spider can't do that. The Raven can't do that.

But I guess everything's all right if you're doing okay?

So let me ask you this - what's your response to people who say the Dragon isn't competitive with the Boomjag?

The thing is though that those chassis were not viable even before seismic, all it did was make it a tad worse. You're talking about a completely different problem now - high alphas and HSR have made lightly armored mechs completely non-competitive against, well, almost everything. If you were getting a bit of success trimming inattentive targets in the margins and seismic makes that even harder the problem is still not seismic - it's that the only viable role right now at all for those chassis was more or less getting lucky.

How about a better solution? Drop 1 module slot off every Assault and Heavy, add 1 to every Medium and 2 to every Light.

Suddenly all those assaults/heavies are having to choose between seismic and Advanced Long Range Sensors. With more module slots Mediums will have room for Coolant while many heavies won't. Lights will have room for ALRS, Target Decay, Seismic and a consumable - or two!

You just can't balance combat for lights. Not without removing pinpoint accuracy. You want to give them their scouting roll back though? Restrict modules for heavier mechs and broaden them for lights. If your Commando has 5 or 6 slots and an Assault has 1 to 3, even with Master.... well, changes the meta in a good way without screwing balance, right?

[Kmieciu]

The Commando was the first mech I mastered in the open beta, and I remember it was quite enjoyable.
Lagshield ® made it extremely hard to kill. I remember I prevented a cap while 4 Atlases were standing on our base. They were hitting each other instead of me.

MischiefSC, on 23 June 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

You just can't balance combat for lights. Not without removing pinpoint accuracy. You want to give them their scouting roll back though? Restrict modules for heavier mechs and broaden them for lights. If your Commando has 5 or 6 slots and an Assault has 1 to 3, even with Master.... well, changes the meta in a good way without screwing balance, right?

You are correct. With HSR lights stand no chance against assault. Try doing hit and runs against a Highlader armed with AC20+2xPPC+3xSSRM2. He's highly mobile at 64 kph, you can't facehugg him, and using seismic he knows exactly where you're coming from and eventually he will hit you with a 40 point alpha.

Commandos and Spiders deserve at least 5 module slots.

[CancR]

And Jenners

[PEEFsmash]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 23 June 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Slow lights (I run my 4x with an xl245) around 110-120kmh are still very useful, just for different reasons. I usually dont get too much further than 250 damage with it, but it's a small, agile fire platform that can mount an AC5, and LRM5 and 2ML and still be able to jump.

#MakeEloPublic

Edited by PEEFsmash, 23 June 2013 - 11:11 PM.

[aniviron]

MischiefSC, on 23 June 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

So let me ask you this - what's your response to people who say the Dragon isn't competitive with the Boomjag?

The thing is though that those chassis were not viable even before seismic, all it did was make it a tad worse. You're talking about a completely different problem now - high alphas and HSR have made lightly armored mechs completely non-competitive against, well, almost everything. If you were getting a bit of success trimming inattentive targets in the margins and seismic makes that even harder the problem is still not seismic - it's that the only viable role right now at all for those chassis was more or less getting lucky.

How about a better solution? Drop 1 module slot off every Assault and Heavy, add 1 to every Medium and 2 to every Light.

Suddenly all those assaults/heavies are having to choose between seismic and Advanced Long Range Sensors. With more module slots Mediums will have room for Coolant while many heavies won't. Lights will have room for ALRS, Target Decay, Seismic and a consumable - or two!

You just can't balance combat for lights. Not without removing pinpoint accuracy. You want to give them their scouting roll back though? Restrict modules for heavier mechs and broaden them for lights. If your Commando has 5 or 6 slots and an Assault has 1 to 3, even with Master.... well, changes the meta in a good way without screwing balance, right?

There are a few reasons this isn't a good idea,

First, seismic is just better than every other module, period. There is no debating. Even if every assault only had one slot, the thing they would take is seismic. The reason the loss of module slots doesn't hurt them very much is because there aren't that many other good modules. Maybe if they were all as good as seismic, then sure, it would be a disadvantage not to have them. But modules are late-game exclusive equipment, which means new players are getting wrecked by people with multiple op modules on their mechs, which is bad. It is a good segue into the other reason that this idea is bad though.

Because modules are late-game gear and require many many hours (or dollars) to acquire, giving lights five and assaults only one means that lights still aren't balanced until you're a veteran pilot, at which point you're probably more than good enough to be able to live without an extra hundred meters of target distance, especially since most of the maps don't even need that bonus. Having five module slots is great, but only if all five modules are worth taking, you can afford five modules, and you're not getting matched up against players who don't have any yet.

[MustrumRidcully]

Quote

Maybe if they were all as good as seismic, then sure, it would be a disadvantage not to have them.

That of course could be an alternate solution - make all modules as good and worth having as Seismic.

Say, if Scouts could take a module that allows them to share all targets they can see (regardless whether they are targeted or not), maybe that would be something that might make Scouting a lot more interesting to do. It doesn't counter Seismic or anything, but it might make the risk of scouting against Seismic enabled foes worth it.

For endgame material, modules are rather... bland.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 24 June 2013 - 02:10 AM.

[stjobe]

MustrumRidcully, on 24 June 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

Say, if Scouts could take a module that allows them to share all targets they can see (regardless whether they are targeted or not), maybe that would be something that might make Scouting a lot more interesting to do. It doesn't counter Seismic or anything, but it might make the risk of scouting against Seismic enabled foes worth it.

That, sadly, reminds me of this list:

• Radar Range Increase – Increases radar range by 2% up to 5 times
  
• Ghost Signature – Increases length of time before a signal fades by 2% up to 3 times
  
• Vision Mode 1 - Zoom Vision – Allows the pilot to zoom 7x
  
• HUD Detail 1 – Enemy Damage Level – LOD detail in terms of damage
  
• HUD Detail 2 – Enemy Component State – Overall component criticality
  
• Null Signature System – Allows the pilot to appear shut down for 5 seconds
  
• Multi-Targeting – Allows the pilot to target multiple enemies up to 4 at a time.
  
• IDF Accuracy – Narrows the AOE of IDF fire.
  
• Critical Shot Indicator – Shares with nearby friendly BattleMechs the critical components of an enemy BattleMech

What's that you say? It's the Scout Role Skills originally envisioned for this game, from Dev Blog 4. There were also Assault/Defense Skills and Commander Skills that all brought different things to the table.

Oh how I wish the devs could go back to trying to implement that game...

[DemonRaziel]

Class/role dependent modules and class/role dependent efficiencies would definitely be a way to make some more 'Mechs, or at least classes of 'Mechs viable. If for example a Speed Tweak was only available to Lights and Mediums, the speed gap between these classes and their heavier brethren would be wider. Heavier 'Mechs on the other hand would for example keep the heat management efficiencies and modules, advanced zoom, air/arty strike, and so on.*

That alone might be an incentive to play these classes for some players. Then again, it might also carry issues of its own, but it will at least give greater variability and a greater sense of uniqueness (roles?) between 'Mechs in different weight categories.

*Disclaimer: The listed modules and efficiencies spread among various weight categories were just examples without much thought put into it, so don't take it too seriously.

[MustrumRidcully]

stjobe, on 24 June 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

That, sadly, reminds me of this list:

• Radar Range Increase – Increases radar range by 2% up to 5 times
  
• Ghost Signature – Increases length of time before a signal fades by 2% up to 3 times
  
• Vision Mode 1 - Zoom Vision – Allows the pilot to zoom 7x
  
• HUD Detail 1 – Enemy Damage Level – LOD detail in terms of damage
  
• HUD Detail 2 – Enemy Component State – Overall component criticality
  
• Null Signature System – Allows the pilot to appear shut down for 5 seconds
  
• Multi-Targeting – Allows the pilot to target multiple enemies up to 4 at a time.
  
• IDF Accuracy – Narrows the AOE of IDF fire.
  
• Critical Shot Indicator – Shares with nearby friendly BattleMechs the critical components of an enemy BattleMech

What's that you say? It's the Scout Role Skills originally envisioned for this game, from Dev Blog 4. There were also Assault/Defense Skills and Commander Skills that all brought different things to the table.


Oh how I wish the devs could go back to trying to implement that game...

What I find interesting that several of the standard features we now have are still modules in that blog.

And the Commander Role sounded much cooler than "give us C-Bills or MC for pathetic attacks"...

[Mycrus]

Foxfire, on 23 June 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

When there are heavies out there that can keep up with them.. it is hard to play them as a skirmisher.

yep... those other chassis/variants are pretty useless...

Edited by Mycrus, 24 June 2013 - 04:52 AM.

[MischiefSC]

aniviron, on 24 June 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

There are a few reasons this isn't a good idea,

First, seismic is just better than every other module, period. There is no debating. Even if every assault only had one slot, the thing they would take is seismic. The reason the loss of module slots doesn't hurt them very much is because there aren't that many other good modules. Maybe if they were all as good as seismic, then sure, it would be a disadvantage not to have them. But modules are late-game exclusive equipment, which means new players are getting wrecked by people with multiple op modules on their mechs, which is bad. It is a good segue into the other reason that this idea is bad though.

Because modules are late-game gear and require many many hours (or dollars) to acquire, giving lights five and assaults only one means that lights still aren't balanced until you're a veteran pilot, at which point you're probably more than good enough to be able to live without an extra hundred meters of target distance, especially since most of the maps don't even need that bonus. Having five module slots is great, but only if all five modules are worth taking, you can afford five modules, and you're not getting matched up against players who don't have any yet.

I disagree that seismic is the best - tell that to any LRM boat. Most don't care about it save as a convenience. A lot of assault brawlers would say the same - there just are not enough lights out there to make it worthwhile. NOT having ALRS or target decay drastically, painfully reduces the effectiveness of LRMs. It's almost like not taking Artemis. I only bother with it on lights to be honest - heavies and assaults, I get more mileage out of other options. If there were more lights out there I might change my mind, but if I only had 1 or 2 slots? I dunno. When I'm in a heavy/assault I'm never, ever, EVER alone so getting ambushed by a lone mech or walking into a pile of them isn't a big fear - it's normally the objective.

I do agree with the point about modules being veteran gear. I'd forgotten how long that takes, especially GXP, in the beginning.

The list stjobe put up.... all but makes me want to quit. It's hard, painful hard, to see what all was promised, what the experience that was promised was, and compare it to what was delivered and what's being promised in the future. It's got some great options and things that would be great for lights but we'll never see them.

[Cymbaline]

Slower lights are still viable but I wouldn't want to go any slower than 120kph. I play a RVN 2X for a challenge because I feel cheap using any other mech, including my beautiful 3L. You just have to think a little more about your attacks because you can't escape from a nasty situation as well as other faster lights.

If you are going to use a slower light it must have some power to it. The 2X, even with SRMs doing little damage, can still leave a nasty mark on heavy and assault mechs.

Also, you want to make yourself as small of a target as possible. In the torunament it was hard to do this because I had to really ask everything out of my little 2X in order to stay competitive. But when I'm not in tournament mode I wait for the snipers to get closer and then help turn the tide of individual battles once things get messy.

It might be placebo but I also I do not color my Raven even though I want to really bad. I do this because I want to avoid attention to myself and I think people tend to overlook my plain green Raven running around.

Playing a slow light is still difficult and you can and will do better in a faster mech. But are they viable? mmhm, they definitely are.

[FupDup]

aniviron, on 24 June 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

...
Maybe if they were all as good as seismic, then sure, it would be a disadvantage not to have them.
...

What the game would look like if all modules were buffed up to Seismic's level of usefulness:

-Sensor range would extend out to at least 2000 meters
-Target Decay would last at least 10 seconds
-Advanced Zoom would highlight enemy hitboxes and calculate leads for you (MW3 Targeting Computer style)
-Artillery and Airstrike would deal at least 100 damage plus splash
-UAV would be mobile and have an infinite duration


Do not want.

Edited by FupDup, 24 June 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[stjobe]

MischiefSC, on 24 June 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

The list stjobe put up.... all but makes me want to quit. It's hard, painful hard, to see what all was promised, what the experience that was promised was, and compare it to what was delivered and what's being promised in the future. It's got some great options and things that would be great for lights but we'll never see them.

Sorry man, didn't mean to get you down.

But yeah, it's sad. As I said, I'd love for them to go back to the drawing board, re-read what they once envisioned the game to become, and try to implement that instead of this. I'd almost be willing to pay up another $120 if it'd make them do it. Almost, but fool me once...