79 replies to this topic

[LordBraxton]

by hotfix

I mean make them run hot

like they used to

People complained PPCs were underpowered

in reality, they just had terribad hit detection

so they gained, 2000mps speed, EMP, and got lowered to 8 heat, all at once

then HSR fixed hit detection

so...

can we just....

have 10 heat PPCs back already? (15 heat ERs)

really this is taking far too long

[CancR]

They do run hot, and they dont need o be changed. What needs to come back is death from overheats x3

[Snowcrow]

A temporary heat increase until they implement damage from overheat would be nice.

[DemonRaziel]

CancR, on 23 June 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

They do run hot, and they dont need o be changed. What needs to come back is death from overheats x3

Not really. They don't run hot enough for most to even consider the heat enough of a downside to look for an alternative weaponry. Currently, they don't even generate more heat than a LPL does. Thus their main balancing factor (high heat), which also limits their (repeated) alpha capabilities is not present in the game.

[CancR]

DemonRaziel, on 23 June 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Not really. They don't run hot enough for most to even consider the heat enough of a downside to look for an alternative weaponry. Currently, they don't even generate more heat than a LPL does. Thus their main balancing factor (high heat), which also limits their (repeated) alpha capabilities is not present in the game.

[LordBraxton]

DemonRaziel, on 23 June 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Not really. They don't run hot enough for most to even consider the heat enough of a downside to look for an alternative weaponry. Currently, they don't even generate more heat than a LPL does. Thus their main balancing factor (high heat), which also limits their (repeated) alpha capabilities is not present in the game.

this

only 1 more heat than a large laser?

the huge benefit to PPCs is that they are so high velocity, and deliver 100% frontloaded damage

for 7 tons, it is a ridiculous bargain

all of my competetive builds carry PPCs and I am soooo sick of using them

[DemonRaziel]

Good scene, not very good movie. You are still wrong, if you think the PPC heat at its current level is sufficient and not does not strongly encourage the current meta.

As stated above by Braxton, the PPC has 1 more heat than the LL, while providing more damage, pinpoint damage and a faster recycle time (granted, this results in a higher HPS as well) and a even a lower heat than the LPL (which does have higher damage now, but loses a lot in the range department).

Death from overheats will only kick in once you overheat. How many 3-4 PPC alphas can you get off before you get to that point, with a sensible (read: optimized) amount of heat sinks at the current heat threshold levels?

[CancR]

So punishing people because they like the usage of PPC is FAR better.

If you want a game to hold your hand, play TF2. This is Mechwarrior. No guts, No galaxy.

[LordBraxton]

CancR, on 23 June 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

So punishing people because they like the usage of PPC is FAR better.

If you want a game to hold your hand, play TF2. This is Mechwarrior. No guts, No galaxy.

um, what?

I am not asking for any added game mechanics to make the game easier

if anything, making PPCs more balanced would make the game more challenging, as they are currently the easiest weapon to hit with

this is a balance discussion about a specific weapon, I am not asking for new features

Edited by LordBraxton, 23 June 2013 - 03:07 PM.

[FupDup]

CancR, on 23 June 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

So punishing people because they like the usage of PPC is FAR better.

If you want a game to hold your hand, play TF2. This is Mechwarrior. No guts, No galaxy.

Bad comparison. Most of the weapons in TF2 come with both strengths and weaknesses (except for a few melee weapons that are upgrades)--meaning that the enemy can exploit your weaknesses to take you down. The PPC currently just has strengths. It's not undefeatable by any means, but the weapon is just good at everything. It's great at long range (which is fine) as well as short range (which isn't quite so fine). It's easier to use than most weapons because you have no decisive weaknesses that the wielder has to account for. Jack of all trades and a master of everything.

Wouldn't it stand to reason that giving players an extremely easy to use weapon with no weaknesses (PPC) is "hand holding" much tighter than a game that makes you vulnerable in certain situations?


EDIT: Note that adding a downside to PPCs doesn't necessarily have to come from a direct PPC nerf; short range weapons just need to outgun a PPC user in short range (i.e. SRM/Pulse buff).

Edited by FupDup, 23 June 2013 - 03:19 PM.

[Stoicblitzer]

LordBraxton, on 23 June 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

by hotfix

I mean make them run hot

like they used to

People complained PPCs were underpowered

in reality, they just had terribad hit detection

so they gained, 2000mps speed, EMP, and got lowered to 8 heat, all at once

then HSR fixed hit detection

so...

can we just....

have 10 heat PPCs back already? (15 heat ERs)

really this is taking far too long

brax, usually you're my boy but this time i gotta disagree. BUFF SRMs BEFORE NERF PPCs imo.

[Coralld]

I agree completely with LordBraxton on this.

CancR, on 23 June 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

They do run hot, and they dont need o be changed. What needs to come back is death from overheats x3

What the hell are you smoking? A standard PPC produces the same amount of heat as a LL which is 8 points of heat. ERPPC is 11. Change them back to TT levels of 10 for Standard and 15 for ER, add in REAL heat penalties and you suddenly have dealt with most of the PPC epidemic.

Edited by Coralld, 23 June 2013 - 03:23 PM.

[FupDup]

Coralld, on 23 June 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

I agree completely with LordBraxton on this.

What the hell are you smoking? A standard PPC produces the same amount of heat as a LL which is 8 points of heat. ERPPC is 11. Change them back to TT levels of 10 for Standard and 15 for ER, add in REAL heat penalties and you suddenly have dealt with the PPC epidemic.

Actually, MWO Large Lasers only generate 7 heat (and do 9 damage) so they got buffed from TT values. But yes, heat currently isn't a very punitive downside because you only get issues when you shut down or try to alpha while near your capacity (death).

[PanzerMagier]

"HA HA HA HA HA, no. They're working 'as intended'"

~sincerely
PGI

[Coralld]

FupDup, on 23 June 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Actually, MWO Large Lasers only generate 7 heat (and do 9 damage) so they got buffed from TT values. But yes, heat currently isn't a very punitive downside because you only get issues when you shut down or try to alpha while near your capacity (death).

Yes, my mistake, LL in MWO do produce 7 points of heat instead of 8. Still doesn't change the fact that they are far more heat effective for their over all pros and cons... What am I saying? There is no cons to using PPCs.

PanzerMagier, on 23 June 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

"HA HA HA HA HA, no. They're working 'as intended'"

~sincerely
PGI

Kind of like ECM when it first came out and seismic, right?

Edited by Coralld, 23 June 2013 - 03:33 PM.

[senaiboy]

Agreed with the OP. Although it is not going to solve the issue with high alpha pinpoint damage, PPCs have been overbuffed since Closed Beta to compensate for hit registration.

At the rate PGI is working though, I won't be keeping my hopes high for a balance pass anytime soon.

[DemonRaziel]

CancR, on 23 June 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

So punishing people because they like the usage of PPC is FAR better.

If you want a game to hold your hand, play TF2. This is Mechwarrior. No guts, No galaxy.

Dude, your responses are getting more and more out of place. Your logic on this subject is flawed in 2 ways.

Why did they nerf the missiles after the LRMageddon? Why did they punish the people that liked the usage of LRMs? Because the weapons were outperforming everything else and were creating an imbalance in the game and were clearly not performing as intended, perhaps?

Next, PPCs are not too hard to use. Increasing the heat will make the weapon fire just the same, it will make it harder to manage its heat. If you want the game to hold your hand, play TF2 (whatever that is, but I am guessing it's Team Fortress 2 - never played that game, can't comment on how difficult it is; or isn't).

Your proposed severe penalties for overheating are indeed good, except in order for them to apply, you first need to have a reasonable heat on the weapons, so they indeed cause you to overheat if you (ab)use them too much too often.

The current heat levels for PPCs are too low and are thus not limiting enough to make it a matter of choice for the players whether to boat as many PPCs as they can or rely on another weapons (or, demon forbid, opt for a balanced multi-purpose loadout), because PPCs are clearly outperforming other weapons in most situations that typically occur in this game.

Buffing other weapons, most prominently SRMs, is needed as well. But no matter how much you help promote brawling, that alone will not change the fact, that PPCs will still retain their repeated high alpha capabilities that end most fights in a matter of seconds.

[Steel Claws]

I didn't think they needed buffed to start with but I do actually think the balance of weapons used is closer than a lot of people think. People tend to remember the PPCs because getting hit by a 4+ PPC ride tends to leave a mark and the human brain is funny that way. I see it in chat during games and start looking at what I'm seeing used and usually there isn't that many PPCs being used, but those being used are being used with some authority.

In a normal drop I see a pretty even spread of stuff being used. There is per side, usually 3 or more rides each running autocannons/Utlras, Guass, SRMs, SSRMs and LRMs. Almost half will have lasers and the about half will have a PPC or three. Since the mechs tend to be energy weapon heavy (with the exception of Jagers). this isn't bad at all.

Edited by Steel Claws, 23 June 2013 - 04:00 PM.

[Nauht]

NO to ppc changes.

They weren't changed in CB due to crappy hit detection. Remember that the GR is in the same boat as far as hit detection is concerned and everyone was using them, I mean everyone. And everyone was hitting with them just fine. Funny that.

There were calls to buff the PPC to make it more comparable with the GR so that you'd want to use the PPC instead of just running the GR.

So PGI did and it worked - you can now choose between the GR or PPC and you would do fine with either or both.

What the problem is, as others have already said, is the hardpoint system that allows for boating and pinpoint accuracy whilst on the move. You should be accurate when you're stationary and have taken careful aim.

How did PGI combat the GR problem in CB? They buffed a weapon to make it comparable.
To nerf a weapon just has a flow through effect to smaller mechs - just look at what nerfing SRM boats did to mediums and lights that could only carry 1 or 2 launchers.

[Unbound Inferno]

The LPL 'fix' and the current state of PPC is just one piece of a very large puzzle that is making me question PGI's ability to 'balance' this game properly.