79 replies to this topic

[LordBraxton]

Even on a mech with a single PPC

it is so efficient in terms of heat and damage

that when you factor in flight speed (read accuracy) pinpoint frontloaded damage, and range

there is never a reason to take any other weapon if you can fit another PPC on your mech

except the obvious reason, we are all so bored of using only PPCs

[Tezcatli]

It seems the company's answer to this is the heat penalties for grouping more then a certain amount of weapons and the overheating penalty.

They're nerfing around the problem.

I totally agree with you that they buffed PPCs because they couldn't hit and then became overpowered when HSR came in. It's totally ridiculous. Yet they don't seem to want face the fact they made a mistake on that.

Still the changes their implementing might be good as a whole. The only thing I worry about, is how they'll use those grouping penalties with mediums. Mediums are already under represented with the exception of a few successful variants, one of which is a "hero" mech. If anything they should exact harsher penalties for assaults and lights. But that's just because I want to see mediums make a comeback >.>

[William Knight]

Nauht, on 23 June 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

How did PGI combat the GR problem in CB? They buffed a weapon to make it comparable.
To nerf a weapon just has a flow through effect to smaller mechs - just look at what nerfing SRM boats did to mediums and lights that could only carry 1 or 2 launchers.

They made the GR extremely fragile (3hp) and added a 90% chance of it exploding, Since it is the second biggest weapon in the game it is almost guaranteed to go up once armour has been striped from the location.

Some would call this a fairly big nerf (especially when you consider that one of the two mechs that can carry two GR has to place them next to an xl engine) .

Edited by William Knight, 24 June 2013 - 09:08 AM.

[Arctu]

You will never be able to balance the PPCs by heat measures or cycle times.The only thing you will do is nerf moderate builds with 1 or 2 PPC while the high alpha builds will continue to flourish. Who cares about heat when you can oneshot or twoshot mechs and hide behind your rock until the heat level normalizes again. Also, theres always the option of going to PPC/Gauss hybrid builds to avoid heat restrictions.

There needs to be a way to prevent high alpha volleys with pinpoint accurancy - like with adding targetting computer load before firering, Someone made a really good thread about this on this forum.

[Amalinze]

The solution here seems obvious to me, but nobody has mentioned it so far. Heat dissipation should be increased 100%, heat capacity should be cut to ~40%. Then PPC boats would be forced to chain-fire, removing the instant 50dmg alpha issue, and smaller mechs without 4xPPC wouldn't be totally gimped. The specifics of the numbers would of course need tweaking, but in general what we need is a radical reduction of heat capacity across the board, and an increase in dissipation. This would fix the boating issues, the ppc issues, everything.

[Rahnu]

Amalinze, on 24 June 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

The solution here seems obvious to me, but nobody has mentioned it so far. Heat dissipation should be increased 100%, heat capacity should be cut to ~40%. Then PPC boats would be forced to chain-fire, removing the instant 50dmg alpha issue, and smaller mechs without 4xPPC wouldn't be totally gimped. The specifics of the numbers would of course need tweaking, but in general what we need is a radical reduction of heat capacity across the board, and an increase in dissipation. This would fix the boating issues, the ppc issues, everything.

Unfortunately, it wouldn't solve the issue of AC/40s and 2x (and in the future, perhaps 3x) Gauss Rifle builds - however, this would still go a long way to improving the game in general, hence I am all for it.

But PPCs still need a heat increase alongside this, as well.

[Amalinze]

Zyrusticae, on 24 June 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

Unfortunately, it wouldn't solve the issue of AC/40s and 2x (and in the future, perhaps 3x) Gauss Rifle builds

I disagree with you on this count. There's no rule saying the changes would have to be matched. AC/40 builds currently don't stock up on heatsinks; usually an XL engine with DHS and maybe one or two extras makes the thing able to fire continuously. If 2 or 3 shots overheated the mech, the build would be much more skill-intensive for the pilot. It's not the first shot that kills you (unless it lands in your cockpit), its the 2nd or 3rd burst of 40 damage, 4 and 8 seconds later that makes it so absurd.

Imagine if the pilot only got one 40-damage alpha, and then was forced to chain-fire his Ac/20's from that point forward. It would still be a powerful build to be sure, but it would be much less powerful. Energy weapons could counter this by having the heat generate over time, rather than having the heat frontloaded and only the damage spread out over time. This would allow high dissipation builds to make lasers stay viable, but penalize weapons that do damage instantly by having the heat generate instantly. Chain firing ballistics/ppcs/missiles would permit the dissipation to handle cooling during the weapon cycle time, making for a much more considered approach to fighting than the current poptart/backslash/repeat methods.

There is no silver bullet to balancing this, but I feel that making the heat cap radically lower would give PGI the tools to make the small step changes which would eventually bring high-alpha builds into balance. As it is, they are equipped only with a range of nerf bats. Things which are viable are exceedingly viable, and things which are not viable (say, SRMs) are totally unworthy of being fielded. It's not the specific weapons that need tweaking so much as the overall heat mechanic.

Edited by Amalinze, 24 June 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[Multitallented]

Everyone is so confused--not only on what to do, but if there even is a problem. What a mess.

[CancR]

DemonRaziel, on 24 June 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

Being arrogant and insulting those who disagree with you does not help you prove your point. It tends to suggest you don't have valid arguments are are trying too hard to discredit him.

So you can provide arguments to back your point. Briliant, please keep this up more w/out the arrogant responses.

I don't need to discredit you, your own arguments do that for me. Yet, with all the whining at the beginning....

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I agree with you on this one

Of course you would, because I am right. The ppc it's self is not a broken weapon like a single lrm was, yet you want to punish lights and mediums more then the heavy and assaults that can boat them. Not to mention heavy/assault boats dealt with the nerfs by changing up to lrms or gauss to keep a front loaded alphas so at the end of the day it ONLY hurt meduims and lights.

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The amount of logical fallacies you commit in this thread alone is astounding. Assuming much? I have not played any CoD MP since CoD 2, I have, however played Mechwarrior 3 quite a lot and a bit of MW4.

Where I took philosophy; saying something is a fallacy then admitting to what you just called a fallacy nets you an f. Not to mention an f in reading comprehension as I was calling out the community at large out for being here today gone tomorrow cod kids and not one specific person.

Quote

It's becoming clear that arguing with you is an exercise in futility, since you will simple resort to more insults, but I will nontheless respond, if only for the other readers.

An out, for having no reasoning and getting crushed in a debate.

Thankfully, some people get it.

lartfor, on 24 June 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

You've managed to miss the actual ruit cause of the problem... The problem is not PPCs individual stats, it's the fact that mechs are fitting 4-5 of them that should be fitting 2 max. The extremely fail "heat pen" solution proposed will do nothing but make it slightly more difficult to pull off these fits while also nerfing PPC setups that are not "boating" are are most certainly not "over powered".

Syllogy, on 24 June 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Hotfixes are reserved for things that are broken. (LRMs, Ping, HUD, etc.) not for balancing weapons that need a light touch and some deep thought. (PPCs)

[Trauglodyte]

Everyone is missing a really big point here: If you nerf PPC heat back to where it was, people are just going to drop the PPCs and load up with Lrg Lasers. The added tonnage and crits will then be moved to more heat sinks which will mean that we went from heavy energy pin point damage with cool down issues to slightly heavy energy damage that ins't pin point accurate but will happen more often due to efficiency. The only benefit there is that you can torso twist but we haven't gotten away from the heavy alpha.

And, for that matter, Lrg Lasers need to go back to 8/8 instead of this stupid 9/7.

[CancR]

How dare you bring common sense to the MWO forums

[DemonRaziel]

CancR, you are apparently deluding yourself. Anyone reading this thread can see, that you have not provided any arguments sans "this will hurt light and medium 'Mechs more than the boaters" but continue to act, like you have somehow, and I quote "crushed me in a debate".

As far as fallacies go, you have responded in a derogatory manner w/out providing anything to actually refute my points several times. You have called out to the "CoD kids" in a direct response to my post, now claim that it was not aimed at me. Yet you state that I have issues with reading comprehension?

The only thing you have, in my opinion, managed to crush, is your credibility. Not because you defend an OP weapon, but because you do so in such an offensive manner that people reading your posts must consider you desperate.

[TOGSolid]

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I totally agree with you that they buffed PPCs because they couldn't hit and then became overpowered when HSR came in. It's totally ridiculous. Yet they don't seem to want face the fact they made a mistake on that.

This is the most blatantly obvious fix PGI could do but they refuse to do it for reasons unknown. It would drastically cut down on the sheer amount of PPCs people are bringing to the fight. These damn things are not supposed to run as cool as they do here.

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The ppc it's self is not a broken weapon like a single lrm was, yet you want to punish lights and mediums more then the heavy and assaults that can boat them.

Protip: It should never be easy for lights and mediums to run PPCs. Yes, there are lights and mediums that do it in the lore, but they sacrifice a lot to pull it off. The Adder (Puma), for instance, has two ER PPCs. Guess what, that thing could open up a bbq on top of itself from the sheer amount of heat that generates. It has to volley fire slowly or it shuts down almost instantly. Meanwhile, we're seeing light mechs run around with ERs and normal PPCs firing gleefully without any real worry. Something is horribly wrong there.

[Lightfoot]

lartfor, on 24 June 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

Just in, Battletech TT rules don't work in an MMOFPS. A 3x erppc mech firing 9 shots back to back w/o shutdown is exceedingly OP...

Same as two Gauss Rifles except the Gauss Rifles would never, ever overheat. They'd just go on doin 30 damage every 4 seconds. And I usually retain the Gauss Rifles till the armor is gone.

3 ERPPCs, plus 21 DHS= 36 tons, 42 criticals, 30 damage.

2 Gauss Rifiles and 6 tons of ammo = 36 tons, 20 criticals, 30 damage. Few enough criticals you could get Endo Steel and save weight and add 3-4 Medium Lasers for solid back-up/alpha-striking or should 60 Gauss Rounds run out.

So Battletech having the 3xERPPC mech overheat after 9 salvos is correct balancing when you consider the Ballistic alternative which never overheats.

GunWarriors go go go!

Edited by Lightfoot, 25 June 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[VagGR]

Lightfoot, on 24 June 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Same as two Gauss Rifles except the Gauss Rifles would never, ever overheat. They'd just go on doin 30 damage every 4 seconds. And I usually retain the Gauss Rifles till the armor is gone.

3 ERPPCs, plus 21 DHS= 42 tons, 72 criticals, 30 damage.

2 Gauss Rifiles and 6 tons of ammo = 36 tons, 20 criticals, 30 damage. Few enough criticals you could get Endo Steel and save weight and add 3-4 Medium Lasers for solid back-up/alpha-striking or should 60 Gauss Rounds run out.

So Battletech having the 3xERPPC mech overheat after 9 salvos is correct balancing when you consider the Ballistic alternative which never overheats.

GunWarriors go go go!

you shouldnt count the DHS crits..yes you can loose them..but if u have your 3 ERPPCs you cans still fire-shutdown-fire-shutdown...and you seem to forget that gauss only have 3 HP and explode upon destruction..also there is no way you can fit 2 gauss rifles and 6 tons of ammo plus medium lasers and be viable..you will either be too slow or too lightly armored

so i pretty much think your argument is invalid...and the the current meta also proves you wrong...you dont see many dual gauss builds in game. all you see is PPCs.

as for the awesome that was mentioned by someone a couple of pages back..yes the awesome was meant to carry 3 PPCs as a stock variant...but i dont think the idea was to alpha those PPCs every 4 secs...so can we not hear about the awesome its 3 PPCs as an argument again pls...

PPCs are broken wether we like it or not...go play a few rounds and see for yourself

EDIT: another thing that needs to be said here is that 3 PPCs on their own is not a bad thing. 30 pinpoint dmg is not a problem. we had that for a long time with dual gauss builds and no one complained. the problem starts at 40+ pinpoint dmg. its that fact that you can easily combine those 3 PPCs with a gauss rifle and go for that, pretty heat efficient, 45 pinpoint alpha that is a problem

Edited by VagGR, 25 June 2013 - 05:41 AM.

[LordBraxton]

Trauglodyte, on 24 June 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Everyone is missing a really big point here: If you nerf PPC heat back to where it was, people are just going to drop the PPCs and load up with Lrg Lasers. The added tonnage and crits will then be moved to more heat sinks which will mean that we went from heavy energy pin point damage with cool down issues to slightly heavy energy damage that ins't pin point accurate but will happen more often due to efficiency. The only benefit there is that you can torso twist but we haven't gotten away from the heavy alpha.

And, for that matter, Lrg Lasers need to go back to 8/8 instead of this stupid 9/7.

wow I would be so happy if large lasers became a popular heavy energy choice

speed actually mitigates large lasers damage very well

PPCs.... not so much

at 10 heat people will still use PPCs, just not on EVERY mech

[Lightfoot]

Figure out what value you want DHS to be and make all DHS the same rating. Then you could probably make PPCs and ERPPCs their rated heat and make 2xAC20's just as hard to manage.

I am used to MechWarrior having very good Energy Weapons and MWO's are the wimpy-est, although the PPCs are good, just so much hotter in use than in previous MW games. The drawback to firing boated PPCs is you shutdown. If you shutdown in front of any seasoned MechWarrior, they put an Alpha-Strike through your cockpit and "nevermore" does your Mech restart. I do it all the time. If a mech shutsdown you have 5 seconds to line up this shot, so nothing spectacular. You just need to be anticipating.

Based on previous MechWarrior games the PPCs are too hot already, or the DHS are too borked, and what is missing is a high chance of Mech destruction if you try to override an emergency shutdown. This discourages players from boating energy in the harshest manner.

[Lightfoot]

VagGR, on 25 June 2013 - 05:26 AM, said:

you shouldnt count the DHS crits..yes you can loose them..but if u have your 3 ERPPCs you cans still fire-shutdown-fire-shutdown...and you seem to forget that gauss only have 3 HP and explode upon destruction..also there is no way you can fit 2 gauss rifles and 6 tons of ammo plus medium lasers and be viable..you will either be too slow or too lightly armored

so i pretty much think your argument is invalid...and the the current meta also proves you wrong...you dont see many dual gauss builds in game. all you see is PPCs.

as for the awesome that was mentioned by someone a couple of pages back..yes the awesome was meant to carry 3 PPCs as a stock variant...but i dont think the idea was to alpha those PPCs every 4 secs...so can we not hear about the awesome its 3 PPCs as an argument again pls...

PPCs are broken wether we like it or not...go play a few rounds and see for yourself

EDIT: another thing that needs to be said here is that 3 PPCs on their own is not a bad thing. 30 pinpoint dmg is not a problem. we had that for a long time with dual gauss builds and no one complained. the problem starts at 40+ pinpoint dmg. its that fact that you can easily combine those 3 PPCs with a gauss rifle and go for that, pretty heat efficient, 45 pinpoint alpha that is a problem

Hold on there. You can fit 3xPPCs and a Gauss, but not 2x Gauss and 4x MLAS? Let's get real here.

Here is my CTF-3D with 2x Gauss, 60 rounds, almost full armor, CASE, AMS, 3x MLAS, which could be 4x MLAS if you drop 1 ton of ammo. 56% cooling efficiency, meaning you have full use of the MLAS. 67 kph with speed perk. Doing much more damage than 3x ERPPCs and no shutdowns. CASE negates the possible Gauss explosion damage and in using this config alot I can promise you you will keep 1 Gauss 95% of the time and both about 70 percent of the time, assuming you don't get unlucky. So this CTF-3D does 45 point damage Alphas, never overheats, never shutsdown, just goes on firing the 2x Gauss every 4 seconds.

Meanwhile the 3xERPPC 80 ton stock mech shutsdown HARD every 3rd shot doing 30 damage alphas and it needs to shutdown more because it is OP? gee whiz guys, there is this thing called math.

Your math just doesn't add up to the major advantage you are saying PPCs have now. I think what you are not liking is the brevity of battles and the fact that if you make a piloting mistake, the mech won't last long enough to turn around and escape. As to whether PPCs or Ballistics are overpowered, it's either both or neither because they seem like their values cancel each other out.

[Hellcat420]

the problem is not the heat, its that you can put so many of them on all of the mechs. mechlab is what needs fixed. the scrub builds are completely stupid.

[DemonRaziel]

Lightfoot, on 25 June 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

Here is my CTF-3D with 2x Gauss, 60 rounds, almost full armor, CASE, AMS, 3x MLAS, which could be 4x MLAS if you drop 1 ton of ammo. 56% cooling efficiency, meaning you have full use of the MLAS. 67 kph with speed perk. Doing much more damage than 3x ERPPCs and no shutdowns. CASE negates the possible Gauss explosion damage and in using this config alot I can promise you you will keep 1 Gauss 95% of the time and both about 70 percent of the time, assuming you don't get unlucky. So this CTF-3D does 45 point damage Alphas, never overheats, never shutsdown, just goes on firing the 2x Gauss every 4 seconds.

What's the point of CASE in LT? Gauss ammo doesn't explode. No point for CASE in RT either, imo, Gauss explosion in that section will core your XL engine anyways. Suddenly you will have one more ton to play with.
A torso-mounted Gauss rifle is still a risky endeavor and if someone blows your RA off, the explosion might subsequently blow off your other Gauss as well.
A potent build for sure, when it comes to pinpoint damage and range, but carries it's own drawbacks even if those are not excessive heat.